"THE LAW" ????

pickles · Nov 3, 2012

Agreed

, but too often we get lost in thinking it is only this, or only that, we just have to do this and then we will get it right.
This is why the law was not enough, and became condemnation rather than the way to salvation.
Thus enters Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh!

We learn all that is given to us by God Our Father, scripture, comandments, fearing Him, loving Him, trusting Him.
Jesus fullfills all we are called to.
It when we no longer look to self for salvation, thinking we can do and know all we need to in order to be saved.
But by looking to Jesus,for He is the way, the truth and the life, light.
We keep thinking we can hold and know how to do all God Our Father has given us.
When just the debates here show just how weak and blind we can be.
That is why Jesus died for us and lives in us, so that we will have His pesance in us, showing us the way.
For it is not us who hold God, but God who holds us.
This is why we have Jesus, so by Him, His care, we will be brought to all that is the rightousness, holyness and the will of God Our Father!

God bless
pickles

Bookends · Nov 3, 2012

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

feedm3 · Nov 3, 2012

My whole point for this thread was really to show the passages most use for saying we have no law, are really taken out of context.

Jesus said if ye love me keep my commands. Those commands are laws. By keeping those laws we show we love Him, and we fear (deep respect) Him.

His laws (commands)are not grievous as John said, but benefit us.

I Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous

This is a NT law concerning love. Keeping his commands is how we show it, implies NOT keeping his commands shows we do NOT love him.

If we believe because were under grace, therefore we have NO law, then how could we show our love for him? It is a dangerous belief, because many think they can live how they please, and will be accepted by grace.

Bookends · Nov 3, 2012

feedm3 said:

It is equally as dangerous to say that we need to keep the law to have salvation or to maintain our salvation. For if we say that, then we put the emphasis on ourselves and not the grace given unto us freely by God in the work and accomplishment of Jesus Christ. Yes the Jews received the law to demonstrate that we could never measure up to what God's requirement is. When Jesus came, Jesus upped the ante, saying (I'm paraphrasing) "even if you think of these things, you committed the sin." What is Jesus really saying? That no human being can measure up to the requirements of God. Therefore, this the very reason we need a perfect sacrifice to cover our sins because we can't do it on our own. Even Peter felt this condemning human predicament after rich man was told to sell all he had, for the rich man said that he kept all the commandments. Jesus said "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter heaven." Again, what is Jesus saying, that man can not do it! In which brings on Peter's response "who can be saved" Jesus responds "by the power of men, nobody, but through me everything is possible." So Jesus came to fulfill the requirement of the law for us.

I'm sorry you can't see OSAS as true doctrine to those who have been regenerated by God. The OSAS doctrine has been hijacked by some today that say you can sin all you want and be saved. I have not met one person who supports OSAS on the c.c. forum that advocates this, and I certain do not. A genuine believer will produce works from their faith, from a desire in their heart, out of love for the Father and what he did, not from a God who puts a shock collar on us and stands over our shoulder ready to press the button every time we mess up.

I'm really sick of people on here attacking sincere Christians over their blessed assurance in the final work of our Lord and savior. Its quite un-Christian like to do so. I'm quite tired of people on here calling me blasphemous because I hold to the doctrine of eternal security for the believer for there are plenty of verses and examples in scripture that support this.

eternally-gratefull · Nov 3, 2012

Bookends said:

col. 2 : 8 - Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he made alive together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Gal 3: 2 - 4 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

feedm3 · Nov 3, 2012

Bookends said:

Sorry, but is just a nice way of saying we do not have to obey God to go to heaven.

Acknowledging that we have a duty is not putting trust in ourselves, it understanding God has spoken, and humility, knowing he expects to be obeyed.

Thinking we do not have to obey him to get to heaven is putting trust in ourselves, because the Bible no where teaches this.

Just because grace is given freely, does not mean it cannot be rejected through disobedience.

Heb 5:9 and being made perfect he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY HIM.

Is the Heb

That is not true. The Jews law was a shadow of what was to come, the Christ - Col 2:14-f.

They could not keep the law, because the law itself could not make them perfect, because the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin.

IF God created us, and knew our limits, why would he have requirements so high that is own creation could not keep?

The requirements for a Christians is to become dead to sin THROUGH REPENTANCE.

This is not perfection, because if it were, we would not need repentance. Yet we are commanded to repent of our sins.

If we choose NOT to repent, and live in sin, then we have received the grace of God IN VAIN - II Cor 6:2, Heb 10:26.

Jesus said if ye love me keep my commands - if this were not possible, then it would be impossible to love him.

Of course we could not wash away our sins on our own. That is why we need the blood of Christ. This does no free us from have to keep our duty - Luk 17:10

The only way the blood is cleansing us is IF we are walking in the light as he is. Walking in the light means abiding by his commands.

If we are not walking in the light, then we are NOT being cleansed by the blood of Christ.

If is foolish to think that if we obey God we are trusting in ourselves. That is an evil scheme someone made up to sound as if we dont believe we have to obey, then were being honorable and trusting God more.

Salvation is available THOUGH CHRIST ALONE, yet we do play a part if we are going to be saved or not.

God made it available to all who hear the gospel, yet it takes action on our part if we are to receive it.

If we have no part in salvation at all, then ALL would be saved, because God desires all men to come to salvatoin - Tit 2:11-f.

Man can do it, though the power of the gospel. All things are possible with God. Even making a law fo his people that they can keep.

This whole man cant obey God is just no faith in God's word that tells us it can make us complete, (perfect KJV) - Col 1:28, II Tim 3:15-16.

Man can through God.

Well as for OSAS, a person does not know who was saved and how was not saved, only God does.

So if we see one living in sin, you may say he was never saved, I may say he lost his salvation, but in the end do either of us really know?

The point is, sin causes punishment not reward. A christian cannot live in sin and expect a Christians reward - Luk 12:43-f.

Sin separates from God (Isa 59:1-2) unless repented of and washed away.

OSAS people say they do not advocate sin, but they always aer quick to argue against obedience as being essential to salvation.

The Implications there is: Since obedience to God is sin, then if one says obedience/disobedience has nothign to do with salvation, then one is saying we can live in sin and not have any eternal consequences.

Implications say much.

Wow, I never called you anything, in fact I think this is the first time I ahve spoken with you. Sense were talking about what were sick of, I to am sick.

I am sick of people saying if you beleive you must obey God to go to heaven that your trying to earn salvation, even though Luke 17:10 tells us we are not earning anything by keeping "all that is commanded".they love to ignore that passage, and Heb 5:9.

I am sick of people thinking if one believer Heb 5:9 they do not trust in the finished work of Christ, when their are 100's of warnings to Christians that tell them they cannot live in sin.

And their are not any that says because Christs work is finished that we have no part in our salvation.

I beelive in eternal security - if we keep his commands we are secure. if not then we should worry.

Abiding · Nov 3, 2012

Thing is the heart that follows Jesus commands in Love.
That new heart was also a work of grace.

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Bookends · Nov 3, 2012

feedm3 said:

Did I ever say your name? no. Why are you sick? it's not the OSAS people making thread upon thread bashing your doctrine and dragging your name through the mud.

feedm3 said:

We agree on something then. Unless you think one can obey Him perfectly.

Abiding · Nov 3, 2012

No i dont think anyone is saying or would say that true believers would not
live to obey their Lord in everything. And not mourn when they fail..But nevertheless
trust in Christ in this..."for without Me you can do NOTHING!

But why did Paul spend so much time explaining things just to be ignored?

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

feedm3 · Nov 3, 2012

Abiding said:

Israel is our example, especially when it comes to obedience/disobedience. Their disobedience is even described as unbelief in some instances, when it is not meaning not to believe in God, but shows that in God's eyes disobedience is unbelief.

Had they pursed the law with faith, they would have understood their is no faith without obedience.

The words "law" and obedience" may not be popular these days, but nevertheless they are essential.

The faith is to be obeyed. The gospel is to be obeyed. This means it is a law.

Works in the Greek ergos is speaking of deeds. Obedience is not a deed, it is a duty. I say that so much because people are not willing to recognize it for what it is.

I dont get any kind of gain believing that if I fail to obey God i will not be saved.

People like to twist that into you are not fully trusting Christ. Not true, I fully trust him, and everything he says. Not trusting him would be to reject what he says through the HS (scripture) and trust man made doctrines.

I think that is foolish. That is like someone saying because Noah built the ark himself as God told him, he was trusting in himself. Noah should have said no, I dont need an ark, I trust you fully to get me out of the coming destruction. Had he said that, we probably would not know of Noah. Thats exactly what people are saying we can do. (I know not all)

feedm3 · Nov 3, 2012

Bookends said:

I said sick because you did, I am really not sick at all, annoyed sometimes, not sick.

As OSAS thread makers, sure they are. I have no idea how your missing them. I was "bashing" anyone, Just showing passages some use, are taken out of context.

I know you did say my name, but you telling me seems like your pointing me out as these things, if not why tell them to me? I just posted a couple of passages showing their context.

Belive me, I get "bashed" all day long. I dont mind really, but just saying, the bashing goes both ways.

I already made that clear, if we were perfect, God would not have granted us repentance. A flawless person does not need repentance.

feedm3 · Nov 3, 2012

Context: The law of Moses which was against the Gentiles have been blotted out by the NT.

[/QUOTE]

Context: The Law of Moses. It is a sin for the Gal church to practice the law of Moses.

See this shows what I have been trying to say perfectly, about passages being used out of context.

Every passage used to support this doctrine are passages dealing with the law of Moses, pulled out of their context, and attempting to be used in the context of what we should do under the NT.

The passages above prove 2 things:
1. The law of Moses has been done away with, Christ blotted out the law of Moses, which was against the Gentles.

2. The Gal church would have fallen from grace if they practiced parts of the Law of Moses as the false teachers were telling them to do regarding circumcision.

What do either of these have to do with obeying God?

In fact the Gal passages show that it is a sin (therefor a law) to return to the law of Moses, to remain in the law of Moses.

So in fact just shows more laws that must be obeyed.

JLHillsSr · Jan 20, 2013

feedm3 said:

I think you both need to look at Abram.

Gen 12:1 KJV - Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

First and foremost, Abram heard and understood what God wanted him to do.

Elin · Jan 20, 2013

gotime said:

Paul phrased it differently.

He said he was not under the law, but under the law of Christ (1Co 9:20-21; Gal 6:2), which is love (Gal 5:6, 14; Jas 2:8) and which fulfills (performs) the law (Ro 13: 8, 9, 10), but without the curse attached for imperfect obedience (Gal 3:10).

Love fulfills (performs) the law because:
if I love God, I will not take his name in vain, nor worship idols;
if I love my parents, I will honor them;
if I love my neighbors, I will not steal from them, nor murder them, nor commit adultery with their spouses,
nor lust after their possessions.

I don't need an external code to know that.

Love fulfills the law (Ro 13:8, 9, 10).

For those in Christ, the law they follow is in their hearts, not in an external written code.

pickles · Jan 21, 2013

gb9 said:

Yup, scripture also says that fear involves torment.

But the fear of God is not about torment, but His love, the love that asks for our sake, His protection and our eternal life.

Much like the parent that instills fear of punishment, so the child does not do something harmful to their self, their life.

God bless
pickles

Powemm · Jan 21, 2013

We have God Here<<<<<-----------------------------
------------------------------------->>>>>Law over there
knowing God ----------- is the law
--------------->> we rest in the middle<<---------------

GOD
------- <<<<------ line in the sand , (us resting in Christ)
LAW

we rest in peace knowing God is over all of it (God over Law)
Wich keeps us free from law and secure in Him , knowing He provides all for us , we have a continual desire to remain in this fine fine state of freedom
-------->>> Gods love , peace, comfort , joy and rest and protection from
Bondage

JLHillsSr · Jan 21, 2013

The Law is the law of sin imputed into Adam.
Gen 3:15 KJV - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Kefa52 · Jan 21, 2013

We have the Spirit of Truth, The Holy Spirit. We are reconciled to God through Jesus.
The Holt Spirit convicts us of our sin.
　
Hebrews 10:16 (CBS) This is the covenant I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws on their hearts and write them on their minds,
　
Galatians 3:10 (HCSB) For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, because it is written: Everyone who does not continue doing everything written in the book of the law is cursed.
　
James 2:10 (HCSB) For whoever keeps the entire law, yet fails in one point, is guilty of breaking it all.
　
Galatians 2:21 (HCSB) I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
　
Galatians 3:1-3 (HCSB) You foolish Galatians! Who has hypnotized you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was vividly portrayed as crucified?
2 I only want to learn this from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now going to be made complete by the flesh?
　
Part of our flesh wants to be good enough. This is just the age long deception from Satan to try to justify our works.

{Galatians 2:21 (HCSB) I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.}

　
　
　

Rock022 · Jan 21, 2013

JLHillsSr said:

This enmity was Jesus Christ. If you love Him you will not suffer.

How will we not suffer? you could be cold, wet and hungry, but this things will not matter to you. Your body will be in pain and you will not feel. Your body will be tired and you will have energy. All of this is given to us when we truly love Jesus. Our spirit will be lifted up so high nothing can bring us down.

This is the way I understand it as I read about the beautiful life of saints. I am not even close to this, I pray and hope that God may grant me this love. But I must be cleanse first of all my inequities and thus I follow the Law. I Follow it but not always succeed. I had hardened my heart for many years, now my heart is slowly softening.

Some people are lucky enough to have simply said I trust you Jesus and that is all that they needed to do. Others like me have to work and pray that one day the Love of Jesus may shine with us.

As a catholic I believe in faith plus works, so it is hard to have any discussion with people in both sides of the spectrum on this subject because we agree with them but believe the other is also needed.

As I read someone here talking about their believe in OSAS I think I understand. The word Saved truly means born again but not born again as some people here say. This is truly a New Birth, one that changes everything in our life so drastically that you do not worry about the Law any more because the Law is written on your heart. The law of Love! True love. This would be not just words, this are actions.

If a person avoids things of this world because he/she says that they love Jesu, they are not at the OSAS level yet. Once a person reaches this level, it does not matter where he/she is because now every thing is about love. This OSAS person could walk to a group of drug addicts that are as drugged as they could be and in an instant they would all sobered up.

Did I get it right OSAS, or did I confused it. In other words what non-catholics call OSAS catholics call saints.

Search

"THE LAW" ????

pickles

Senior Member

Bookends

Senior Member

feedm3

Guest

Bookends

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

feedm3

Guest

Abiding

Guest

Bookends

Senior Member

Abiding

Guest

feedm3

Guest

feedm3

Guest

feedm3

Guest

JLHillsSr

Guest

Elin

Banned

pickles

Senior Member

Powemm

Guest

JLHillsSr

Guest

Kefa52

Guest

Rock022

Banned