The rapture?

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john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Let's see. Who is telling the truth and who is nursing and pregnant with Satan's lies and calling God a liar? Biblical truths in Black. Lies or unsupported Traditions of Men in Red.

Jesus says clearly that He returns AFTER the Tribulation.

You disagree and say Jesus comes before the Tribulation. You have no verse to back up your view.

Paul says the Lord does not return until AFTER the Man of Sin is revealed.

You disagree and say Jesus comes before the Tribulation. You have no verse to back up your view.

Paul teaches that the gathering together to Christ happens at the Day of the Lord.

You teach that Paul tells one group of Thessalonians that they will be Raptured, then warns the same Thessalonians not to be deceived concerning the timing of Christ's return.

John gives dire Tribulation era warnings to churches to change their ways.

You state the church is taken to heaven although you have no verse that teaches this or shows the church in heaven.

God says Jesus is to return to earth and reign.

You say Jesus goes back to heaven and you have no verse that states Jesus returns to heaven after He comes.

We are told we must through tribulation enter the Kingdom of heaven, that we will suffer tribulation and be hated and killed for His name's sake.

You teach that there is an exception to this rule only for Christians who happen to be on earth just prior to the Tribulation. You have no verse where this doctrine has been reversed.

We are told to be the Salt and Light on earth.

You teach that during the greatest period of evil, we are to turn tail and run. You have no verse to support this view.

God calls the 144K his "firstfruits redeemed from men."

You disagree and instead have the church as the firstfruits. You have no verse to support this position.

God teaches in multiple places that Jesus is to remain at His right hand "until He has made the earth His footstool."

You believe Jesus disobeys God and sneaks off to earth for a rescue of the church before God has done anything to make earth His footstool. You have no verse to support this view.

Paul teaches that "DEATH" is the last enemy Christ defeats.

You teach that Christ defeats death as soon as He comes for the Rapture and before He defeats Satan, the Beast or anyone wicked. You have no verse that supports your position.

The author of Hebrews teaches that it is appointed until men once to die and after this comes the judgment and to those who await for Christ, He will appear a second time for salvation. Again, Christ defeats death last, at the end of His 1,000 year reign.

You teach that saved men don't die, rather they are transformed and taken to heaven. You teach Christ appears three times, not twice as Hebrews states. You further move the transformation from the end of the millennium to the Before the Tribulation. There is no such timing given and the context is clearly end of the World.

We are told to have patience and faith.

You teach no patience is needed. You have no scripture to support this view.

We are told to watch, that the Lord comes as a thief in the night.

You teach - no need to watch as we are gonna be outa here.

We are told that in all the land, 2/3 shall be cut off and die but 1/3 shall remain in it. The 1/3 are brought through fire, refined and tested and will call the Lord their God and He will call them His people.

You teach there is another group not mentioned here who are Raptured, thus not tested, not refined. You have no verse that says this. You have nothing to account for the percentage of saved Jews who would be Raptured if a Rapture indeed exists.
We are told Satan wages war with and defeats Saints. We are told multitudes of Christians are killed during the Great Tribulation.

You explain this as these must be tribulation saints who did not make the cut for the rapture. There is no verse or scriptural support for the notion of a Tribulation Saint. No distinction is ever given.


We are told there will be a great apostasy or falling away before the Man of Sin is revealed.

You teach that after all believers are taken that a great rival happens with millions coming to Christ only to just as quickly fall away and turn back away from Christ and worship the AntiChrist. This concept is not taught and cannot be found in the Bible.

We are told that only those who persevere will be kept from the Hour of Trial that will come upon the whole earth.

You teach that no persevering is needed, we are taken before anything bad happens. Or you teach this verse doesn't apply to the whole earth as there is another group not mentioned here that is raptured. Further you teach the way we are kept from this trial is by being taken to heaven. No verse or teaching can be found to support your view.


We are taught that there is nothing new under the sun.

You teach that there are new things. No verse states this.

Jesus tells us plainly in direct response to a question about the end times that, "(HE) has told you all things."

You call Christ a liar by asserting that Christ left out the Rapture lesson instead allowed Paul to reveal it some 20+ years later. You have no verse that teaches Christ left out anything or that the Rapture lesson was reserved for Paul to reveal.


We are told that the Elect (who are on earth after the Tribulation) where chosen from the foundations of the earth. We are told they are faithful and true and spiritually virgin and that they are blameless before God and that they follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

You teach that they were unbelievers when the Rapture occurred and failed to make the cut. You teach they are second class Christians who are not invited to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb because they failed the initially make the cut.

Peter teaches that Paul's lessons are difficult to understand and that there will be those who twist Paul's words to their own destruction.

You teach that it is those who read the clear teachings who are doing the twisting and not you who have no scriptural support for most of your end times views.

God teaches that He is not the Author of Confusion. We are further told that Babel = Babylon = Satan who is deceptive.

You believe in a view that did not exist before 1830 and was not widely taught until the Revised Scofield Study Bible came out in 1917. You teach that this new view which did not exist for 1800 years is the truth and those of us who believe the classical view which the church held from Christ to Darby are the ones who are confused.

We are told Satan is the Master Deceiver and the Father of all Liars. We are told to put on the whole armor of God including girding our waist with truth that we might "Withstand in the Evil Day."

You teach we won't even be here for the Evil Day.

We are told there will be wolves in sheep's clothing looking to lead us astray.

You don't see any wolves or you see those speaking the clear Word as the wolves.

We are told to test everything (against the Word of God)

You teach a doctrine that has no Biblical bases which was developed by lumping together separate passages mostly from Paul - that Christ himself never taught. There is no Rapture lesson which tells the story start to finish. There is no word to distinguish one return from the other. You believe a doctrine were most of the key tenants cannot be found even separately, let alone not found together.

Dear Friend, the Pre-Trib Rapture view has more holes in it than Titanic. Just this one little new doctrine has completely twisted so much of the Bible and contorted the views and minds of millions of believers. Christ did not leave anything out. He did not stutter. He clearly stated when He was coming back and He never qualified the statement.
Hammered home! You have clearly stated the truth and all the problems associated with the "rapture" theory.

Just as a side note about the 1/3 - 2/3 split...

There is an indication that only 10% will ultimately survive...

Isa 24:5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant.
Isa 24:6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left.

Isa 33:13 Hear, you who are afar off, what I have done; And you who are near, acknowledge My might."
Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting ( a good place to insert the word "nuclear") burnings?"
Isa 33:15 He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, He who despises the gain of oppressions, Who gestures with his hands, refusing bribes, Who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed, And shuts his eyes from seeing evil:

Isa 6:11 Then I said, "Lord, how long?" And He answered: "Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, The houses are without a man, The land is utterly desolate,
Isa 6:12 The LORD has removed men far away, And the forsaken places are many in the midst of the land.
Isa 6:13 But yet a tenth will be in it, And will return and be for consuming, As a terebinth tree or as an oak, Whose stump remains when it is cut down. So the holy seed shall be its stump."

Now is this 10% of the total? Or 10% of the remaining 1/3? Scary, isn't it?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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There is no rapture and only one Second Coming. And there are no verses that say we are going to be in heaven, and many that say we are going to be on earth, and in fact the whole earth awaits the return of Christ.

"For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." Romans 8:22-23

As far as the ONE text that talks about "meeting Christ is the air is 1 Thess. 4:17:

"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."

In the Greek the verse looks like this:

"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα."

ἀπάντησιν or apantesin, is the word for "meeting". The word had a technical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens or a deputation, who went out from the city and would then ceremonially escort the dignitary back to into the city.

It is also used in 2 other places in Scripture.

"And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage." Acts 28:15

"But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’" Matt 25:6


Meet in all three cases apantesin means MEET AND RETURN.

There is absolutely nothing in 1 Thess. 4:17 to suggest that Christ is going to return, then take everyone back to heaven with him. In fact, the very word rapture is from the Latin Vulgate and is a mistranslation of the passage.

Besides, you never use just one passage to construct an entire doctrine out of it. That is the worst possible hermeneutics!
Well what are you going to do with Acts 1:10-11? Jesus in the clouds or the air does not sound like the second coming. Again 1 Corinthians 15:51 a mystery where not all die but all are changed. Again this is not like the return of Christ because Israel will be in physical bodies for the next 1000 years.

When you deny the rapture of the church you deny a lot of scriptural promises. The differences are clear that the church and Israel are separate in the end times. The church shall not see wrath but Israel will be chastised for her unbelief.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Well what are you going to do with Acts 1:10-11? Jesus in the clouds or the air does not sound like the second coming. Again 1 Corinthians 15:51 a mystery where not all die but all are changed. Again this is not like the return of Christ because Israel will be in physical bodies for the next 1000 years.

When you deny the rapture of the church you deny a lot of scriptural promises. The differences are clear that the church and Israel are separate in the end times. The church shall not see wrath but Israel will be chastised for her unbelief.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Acts 1:10-11 and I Ths 4:16017 are in perfect harmony. In the passage in Acts, Christ is taken up into a cloud and into heaven. In I Ths He comes from heaven down into the clouds, meets the church in the air and together come to the earth.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

No, not all will sleep, there will be converted Christians alive at the return of Christ. They will be changed while those who have died will be resurrected. I really don't see any contradiction here. It is all in line.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,365
186
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When you deny the rapture of the church you deny a lot of scriptural promises. The differences are clear that the church and Israel are separate in the end times. The church shall not see wrath but Israel will be chastised for her unbelief.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Perhaps you can post all these promises with the supporting scriptures.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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It has been my observation that Israel does not perceive a kingdom in heaven. Israel looks for a kingdom on this earth. Eternal yet earthly.
Israel is correct then. The kingdom and new heaven is coming to the new earth after the old heavens and earth have passed away.

Peter teaches this in 2 Peter 3:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

John teaches this:

10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12 Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 21 The twelve gates were twelve pearls: each individual gate was of one pearl. And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass. 22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Please note all the below are describing one event, the Second Coming of Christ as he himself also teaches this in John 14. Each account has a gathering or catching up of the believers left on earth:
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

This agrees with Mat 24:
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And this agrees with Paul in both 1 Thes 4 and 2 Thes 2:
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Perhaps you can post all these promises with the supporting scriptures.
Oh yeah, I forgot that one from my list. It's hard to keep up with all the scripture that has to be twisted to support one false Rapture doctrine.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Acts 1:10-11 and I Ths 4:16017 are in perfect harmony. In the passage in Acts, Christ is taken up into a cloud and into heaven. In I Ths He comes from heaven down into the clouds, meets the church in the air and together come to the earth.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

No, not all will sleep, there will be converted Christians alive at the return of Christ. They will be changed while those who have died will be resurrected. I really don't see any contradiction here. It is all in line.
This is the one area we disagree. My contention is no living person is changed when Christ returns. You won't find any mention of living being changed in any passage that discusses the Lord's return.

1 Cor 15:51 doesn't say a word about Christ, His return or His gathering of us together. Please go back and study the context of Paul's lesson here. Death is the last enemy defeated by Christ, not the first.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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There is an indication that only 10% will ultimately survive...
Thanks John. I will get back to you on this. Don't have time right now. But yes, it will be a blood bath. Most of these deaths happen at Armageddon. But you are correct, there will be a middle east nuclear war. This war is rapidly approaching. Damascus will be utterly destroyed for the first time in history.

Further, I truly believe the United States is Babylon and will be utterly destroyed. This is a fairly new position for me and it comes primarily from Rev 18. I used to think it was Rome - Roman Catholic Church, but the USA fits better.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
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Thanks John. I will get back to you on this. Don't have time right now. But yes, it will be a blood bath. Most of these deaths happen at Armageddon. But you are correct, there will be a middle east nuclear war. This war is rapidly approaching. Damascus will be utterly destroyed for the first time in history.

Further, I truly believe the United States is Babylon and will be utterly destroyed. This is a fairly new position for me and it comes primarily from Rev 18. I used to think it was Rome - Roman Catholic Church, but the USA fits better.
My understanding is that the US is Manasseh and Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are Ephraim. There are those who poo-poo this but I believe it to be truth.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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My understanding is that the US is Manasseh and Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are Ephraim. There are those who poo-poo this but I believe it to be truth.
I have not done a study on where the 10 northern tribes primarily settled, but I totally believe the 144K can be any of us who know the truth and have been scattered some 2,500 years ago. I can't trace my family back 200 years let alone over 2,000.

We know the Lord gathers us from the 4 winds so clearly we are scattered.