The rapture?
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Twelve tribes and 12,000 from each one. Arithmetic being what it is that makes 144,000. These will be the evangelists of the tribulation. Preaching Jesus to the whole world and paying with their life blood to confirm the message. God knows who they are and God will raise them up to declare His word with power.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
J
I have to agree with the response from LT. When you examine Noah in the ark, they were not "taken out of" their tribulation, they went through it. Look at the 3 Hebrew boys. Were they raptured out of their situation? Of course not. God brought them THROUGH it. When you go through something, you don't miss it. I think we should approach this issue from a more practical perspective as well. Is the church too good to go through anything? Certainly not. The bible tells us that, There is none that doeth good. Jesus never promised us a bed of roses in this life. He told us, In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.
In other words, Jesus already won the battle before it even began. Granted, we may suffer from man's wrath up to a point, but Jesus will give His people the strength to endure. The bible tells us, He that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. We should not look at Christianity as a ticket of escapism, but rather, the promise of redemption from sin and the promise of eternal life regardless what we go through on earth.
In other words, Jesus already won the battle before it even began. Granted, we may suffer from man's wrath up to a point, but Jesus will give His people the strength to endure. The bible tells us, He that endure to the end, the same shall be saved. We should not look at Christianity as a ticket of escapism, but rather, the promise of redemption from sin and the promise of eternal life regardless what we go through on earth.
Well said. You make some very strong points. If we are to endure to the end, what are we doing being raptured before the end even starts???
Also, people need to first understand two very important points and I will keep stressing them.
1) The Great Tribulation is Satan's temptation into getting the saved to believe in the False Christ. Satan isn't coming to deceive the unbeliever as he has already done this.
2) The Great Tribulation does not contain one ounce of God's wrath. God's wrath comes AFTER it.
Once these two critical points are understood then ask the question. "What is the purpose of the Great Tribulation and why would God allow Satan to come down to deceive His believers?"
That is a very good question. We know Satan stood before God accusing the brethren day and night. We know God allowed Satan to mess with Job. We also know for a fact that Satan was allowed to deceive the first created, Adam and Eve. He was also allowed to try to tempt Christ and failed miserably at it. We also know for a fact that Satan would be tied up then loosed after the 1,000 year millennium to again tempt man-kind. It appears Satan is allowed to do this at the start of every dispensation (for those who believe in such a thing).
Wouldn't it seem odd that the church gets to escape this greatest Satanic temptation the world has ever seen given the history?? That's what the Rapture teaches.
The fact is there were 2,000 years from Adam to Abraham. During those years God did not have a chosen people. He spared Noah from the flood but he didn't have a chosen race. Then we had Abraham whose faithfulness was tested to the point were he was going to kill Isaac, his son. God spared Isaac after seeing Abraham was going to do it and passed the test.
Move the clock ahead 2,000 years. Israel and Judah had 2,000 years to follow the law, to learn of the prophesy of the Messiah. 2,000 years from Abraham to Jesus. Two future appearances of Christ were foretold, the life of Jesus and His triumphant return as King of King and Lord of Lords. God's chosen people failed to see two distinct returns and only looked for the triumphant Messiah and not the Lamb who was slain. Thus, they missed Him and had him put to death.
Salvation was opened up to the Gentiles in part to make God's people jealous. We've been told of one return of Christ - the one foretold of in the OT. Yet too many of us see two returns, a rapture return and a second advent return when only one return is taught. Those who believe in the Pre-Trib rapture will in large numbers fall for Satan also missing their messiah. Only the Elect, from the foundation of the earth and the small remnant of Saints not fooled or killed will pass the test. History repeats. The church fairs no better than God's people. Both the church and God's chosen people have failed to recognize the Messiah. Thus both had equal chances.
But God is merciful. Those fooled will not lose their salvation but they will miss out on the Marriage Supper of the Lamb for when they were called, they failed to answer and instead did what the Lord did not delight in - they were deceived by and worshiped Satan. Doesn't this sound impossible? Who thinks I'm crazy? Before you answer, go read Isaiah 65.
Remember the story of Gideon from Judges 7. He was given 32,000 men originally but the Lord tested them. Those who lapped at the water like dogs were rejected. Why? Because they were not keeping watch. Out of 32,000 only 300 where chosen. These were the ones who cupped the water with their hands and kept watch as they drank. This is less than 1% of the total Gideon started with. Why was this done? To give God the glory and to reward those who kept watch.
This is a valuable lesson for today. We are instructed to watch least we be like the 5 virgins without enough oil. The 144K are just under 1% of the total Jewish worldwide population today. Those believing in the rapture are not watching. They are not preparing.
Also, people need to first understand two very important points and I will keep stressing them.
1) The Great Tribulation is Satan's temptation into getting the saved to believe in the False Christ. Satan isn't coming to deceive the unbeliever as he has already done this.
2) The Great Tribulation does not contain one ounce of God's wrath. God's wrath comes AFTER it.
Once these two critical points are understood then ask the question. "What is the purpose of the Great Tribulation and why would God allow Satan to come down to deceive His believers?"
That is a very good question. We know Satan stood before God accusing the brethren day and night. We know God allowed Satan to mess with Job. We also know for a fact that Satan was allowed to deceive the first created, Adam and Eve. He was also allowed to try to tempt Christ and failed miserably at it. We also know for a fact that Satan would be tied up then loosed after the 1,000 year millennium to again tempt man-kind. It appears Satan is allowed to do this at the start of every dispensation (for those who believe in such a thing).
Wouldn't it seem odd that the church gets to escape this greatest Satanic temptation the world has ever seen given the history?? That's what the Rapture teaches.
The fact is there were 2,000 years from Adam to Abraham. During those years God did not have a chosen people. He spared Noah from the flood but he didn't have a chosen race. Then we had Abraham whose faithfulness was tested to the point were he was going to kill Isaac, his son. God spared Isaac after seeing Abraham was going to do it and passed the test.
Move the clock ahead 2,000 years. Israel and Judah had 2,000 years to follow the law, to learn of the prophesy of the Messiah. 2,000 years from Abraham to Jesus. Two future appearances of Christ were foretold, the life of Jesus and His triumphant return as King of King and Lord of Lords. God's chosen people failed to see two distinct returns and only looked for the triumphant Messiah and not the Lamb who was slain. Thus, they missed Him and had him put to death.
Salvation was opened up to the Gentiles in part to make God's people jealous. We've been told of one return of Christ - the one foretold of in the OT. Yet too many of us see two returns, a rapture return and a second advent return when only one return is taught. Those who believe in the Pre-Trib rapture will in large numbers fall for Satan also missing their messiah. Only the Elect, from the foundation of the earth and the small remnant of Saints not fooled or killed will pass the test. History repeats. The church fairs no better than God's people. Both the church and God's chosen people have failed to recognize the Messiah. Thus both had equal chances.
But God is merciful. Those fooled will not lose their salvation but they will miss out on the Marriage Supper of the Lamb for when they were called, they failed to answer and instead did what the Lord did not delight in - they were deceived by and worshiped Satan. Doesn't this sound impossible? Who thinks I'm crazy? Before you answer, go read Isaiah 65.
Remember the story of Gideon from Judges 7. He was given 32,000 men originally but the Lord tested them. Those who lapped at the water like dogs were rejected. Why? Because they were not keeping watch. Out of 32,000 only 300 where chosen. These were the ones who cupped the water with their hands and kept watch as they drank. This is less than 1% of the total Gideon started with. Why was this done? To give God the glory and to reward those who kept watch.
This is a valuable lesson for today. We are instructed to watch least we be like the 5 virgins without enough oil. The 144K are just under 1% of the total Jewish worldwide population today. Those believing in the rapture are not watching. They are not preparing.
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There is no rapture and only one Second Coming. And there are no verses that say we are going to be in heaven, and many that say we are going to be on earth, and in fact the whole earth awaits the return of Christ.
"For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." Romans 8:22-23
As far as the ONE text that talks about "meeting Christ is the air is 1 Thess. 4:17:
"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."
In the Greek the verse looks like this:
"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα."
ἀπάντησιν or apantesin, is the word for "meeting". The word had a technical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens or a deputation, who went out from the city and would then ceremonially escort the dignitary back to into the city.
It is also used in 2 other places in Scripture.
"And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage." Acts 28:15
"But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’" Matt 25:6
Meet in all three cases apantesin means MEET AND RETURN.
There is absolutely nothing in 1 Thess. 4:17 to suggest that Christ is going to return, then take everyone back to heaven with him. In fact, the very word rapture is from the Latin Vulgate and is a mistranslation of the passage.
Besides, you never use just one passage to construct an entire doctrine out of it. That is the worst possible hermeneutics!
"For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. [SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies." Romans 8:22-23
As far as the ONE text that talks about "meeting Christ is the air is 1 Thess. 4:17:
"Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord."
In the Greek the verse looks like this:
"ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα."
ἀπάντησιν or apantesin, is the word for "meeting". The word had a technical meaning in the Hellenistic world related to the visits of dignitaries to cities where the visitor would be formally met by the citizens or a deputation, who went out from the city and would then ceremonially escort the dignitary back to into the city.
It is also used in 2 other places in Scripture.
"And the brothers there, when they heard about us, came as far as the Forum of Appius and Three Taverns to meet us. On seeing them, Paul thanked God and took courage." Acts 28:15
"But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’" Matt 25:6
Meet in all three cases apantesin means MEET AND RETURN.
There is absolutely nothing in 1 Thess. 4:17 to suggest that Christ is going to return, then take everyone back to heaven with him. In fact, the very word rapture is from the Latin Vulgate and is a mistranslation of the passage.
Besides, you never use just one passage to construct an entire doctrine out of it. That is the worst possible hermeneutics!
Jesus said:
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
Now if the Great Tribulation were about God punishing the wicked, why would he be punishing His own elect and have to shorten His days of wrath?
"Tribulation" as used in the Bible has always been used to describe persecution, testing or temptation of believers by the wicked. Why then should "Great Tribulation" be used to describe a divine punishment of the wicked?
Pre-Tribbers, explain this?
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
If the days before Christ returns was filled with His divine punishment, the wicked sure didn't see it. They were yucking it up and having a grand ole time. So, who was having it rough then? How about believers? We know Satan wages war against the saints and defeats them.
Rev 13:
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
Just when is the above supposed to happen if not during the Tribulation?
We just learned that the wicked saw life as normal right up until Christ returns. We see that someone was being persecuted or it couldn't be called a Great Tribulation. We see believers are defeated by Satan and we see this confirmed with the Great Multitude which came out of the Great Tribulation in heaven in Rev 7.
The timing of God's wrath as after the Tribulation is everywhere, OT and NT. Thus the Great Tribulation is against believers and not the wicked. Jesus tells us this clearly in Mat 24:21-27.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
Now if the Great Tribulation were about God punishing the wicked, why would he be punishing His own elect and have to shorten His days of wrath?
"Tribulation" as used in the Bible has always been used to describe persecution, testing or temptation of believers by the wicked. Why then should "Great Tribulation" be used to describe a divine punishment of the wicked?
Pre-Tribbers, explain this?
37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
If the days before Christ returns was filled with His divine punishment, the wicked sure didn't see it. They were yucking it up and having a grand ole time. So, who was having it rough then? How about believers? We know Satan wages war against the saints and defeats them.
Rev 13:
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
Just when is the above supposed to happen if not during the Tribulation?
We just learned that the wicked saw life as normal right up until Christ returns. We see that someone was being persecuted or it couldn't be called a Great Tribulation. We see believers are defeated by Satan and we see this confirmed with the Great Multitude which came out of the Great Tribulation in heaven in Rev 7.
The timing of God's wrath as after the Tribulation is everywhere, OT and NT. Thus the Great Tribulation is against believers and not the wicked. Jesus tells us this clearly in Mat 24:21-27.
Look at all the events Jesus describe that take place during the Great Tribulation as He, Jesus tells it, from Mat 24. Pay close attention to everything Jesus says between the bolded start and finish:
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
Am I alone in seeing this as all about the deception of False Christ(s)? I also see a warning about not going out if they tell you Christ is here. By inference, does that mean we are safe if we ignore those who say Christ is here and stay inside? It sure seems like the faithful can be spared if they listen to this warning. See companion verse from Rev 3:
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
How many Pre-Tribbers go out if a spiritual being shows up and says they are an angel of the Lord come to rapture them away? Show of hands!! There is going to be an Hour of Trial people. There is going to be a call to go to Christ. This is why it is so important to know the correct order of appearances.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. 29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...
Am I alone in seeing this as all about the deception of False Christ(s)? I also see a warning about not going out if they tell you Christ is here. By inference, does that mean we are safe if we ignore those who say Christ is here and stay inside? It sure seems like the faithful can be spared if they listen to this warning. See companion verse from Rev 3:
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
How many Pre-Tribbers go out if a spiritual being shows up and says they are an angel of the Lord come to rapture them away? Show of hands!! There is going to be an Hour of Trial people. There is going to be a call to go to Christ. This is why it is so important to know the correct order of appearances.
S
You are not the only one. Post trib is correct. Many will be expecting Jesus to come back and get them before it gets real bad and when it doesn't happen, well I believe this will be the cause of "the great falling away". People will lose faith and think He is not comming. The bible is pretty clear about a post trib. It is very unclear about a pre trib. I'd rather be expecting a post trib and be as ready as I can be than be totally unprepared and realize I have to endure the tribulation with nearly nothing.
FYI,
John was in spirit on the LORD's DAY. This is not to be confused with the Lord's Day as being some random Sunday as many so call scholars suggest. This Day is AKA the Day of the Lord and it lasts 1,000 years. The Lord returns, defeats, rules and judges during this 1000 year long day. This is the only way that everything makes sense.
John writes to the churches during the Lord's Day. He makes reference to the Great Tribulation in Rev 2:22 and the Hour of Testing in Rev 3:10. Both events are end time events. So clearly the church is still on earth during the Great Tribulation.
John 6:40, 44, and 54 all speak of raising up the living believer on the last day. Then we have this verse from John 12 where the wicked is being judged:
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
and back to the righteous again:
John 11:24 states:
24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he (Lazarus) will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
How can there be a Rapture where the dead in Christ are raised and the wicked are judged on the same last day? The Rapture doctrine does not teach this. The Rapture teaches that the church is removed and the wicked are judged later.
How can there be a Rapture where the righteous dead are raised but the wicked dead are not judged until after Christ returns after the Tribulation? How can the rapture happen on the Last Day when clearly there are more days?
John was in spirit on the LORD's DAY. This is not to be confused with the Lord's Day as being some random Sunday as many so call scholars suggest. This Day is AKA the Day of the Lord and it lasts 1,000 years. The Lord returns, defeats, rules and judges during this 1000 year long day. This is the only way that everything makes sense.
John writes to the churches during the Lord's Day. He makes reference to the Great Tribulation in Rev 2:22 and the Hour of Testing in Rev 3:10. Both events are end time events. So clearly the church is still on earth during the Great Tribulation.
John 6:40, 44, and 54 all speak of raising up the living believer on the last day. Then we have this verse from John 12 where the wicked is being judged:
48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
and back to the righteous again:
John 11:24 states:
24 Martha said to Him, "I know that he (Lazarus) will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
How can there be a Rapture where the dead in Christ are raised and the wicked are judged on the same last day? The Rapture doctrine does not teach this. The Rapture teaches that the church is removed and the wicked are judged later.
How can there be a Rapture where the righteous dead are raised but the wicked dead are not judged until after Christ returns after the Tribulation? How can the rapture happen on the Last Day when clearly there are more days?
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Thank you and good for you. God has given you wisdom. Keep the faith. Store up things you need for the period where you cannot buy or sell without the mark. Stay inside and do not go out to worship anyone who says they are here to take you to a rapture. May the God of the Universe Bless and Keep You!!!
Let's see. Who is telling the truth and who is nursing and pregnant with Satan's lies and calling God a liar? Biblical truths in Black. Lies or unsupported Traditions of Men in Red.
Jesus says clearly that He returns AFTER the Tribulation.
You disagree and say Jesus comes before the Tribulation. You have no verse to back up your view.
Paul says the Lord does not return until AFTER the Man of Sin is revealed.
You disagree and say Jesus comes before the Tribulation. You have no verse to back up your view.
Paul teaches that the gathering together to Christ happens at the Day of the Lord.
You teach that Paul tells one group of Thessalonians that they will be Raptured, then warns the same Thessalonians not to be deceived concerning the timing of Christ's return.
John gives dire Tribulation era warnings to churches to change their ways.
You state the church is taken to heaven although you have no verse that teaches this or shows the church in heaven.
God says Jesus is to return to earth and reign.
You say Jesus goes back to heaven and you have no verse that states Jesus returns to heaven after He comes.
We are told we must through tribulation enter the Kingdom of heaven, that we will suffer tribulation and be hated and killed for His name's sake.
You teach that there is an exception to this rule only for Christians who happen to be on earth just prior to the Tribulation. You have no verse where this doctrine has been reversed.
We are told to be the Salt and Light on earth.
You teach that during the greatest period of evil, we are to turn tail and run. You have no verse to support this view.
God calls the 144K his "firstfruits redeemed from men."
You disagree and instead have the church as the firstfruits. You have no verse to support this position.
God teaches in multiple places that Jesus is to remain at His right hand "until He has made the earth His footstool."
You believe Jesus disobeys God and sneaks off to earth for a rescue of the church before God has done anything to make earth His footstool. You have no verse to support this view.
Paul teaches that "DEATH" is the last enemy Christ defeats.
You teach that Christ defeats death as soon as He comes for the Rapture and before He defeats Satan, the Beast or anyone wicked. You have no verse that supports your position.
The author of Hebrews teaches that it is appointed until men once to die and after this comes the judgment and to those who await for Christ, He will appear a second time for salvation. Again, Christ defeats death last, at the end of His 1,000 year reign.
You teach that saved men don't die, rather they are transformed and taken to heaven. You teach Christ appears three times, not twice as Hebrews states. You further move the transformation from the end of the millennium to the Before the Tribulation. There is no such timing given and the context is clearly end of the World.
We are told to have patience and faith.
You teach no patience is needed. You have no scripture to support this view.
We are told to watch, that the Lord comes as a thief in the night.
You teach - no need to watch as we are gonna be outa here.
We are told that in all the land, 2/3 shall be cut off and die but 1/3 shall remain in it. The 1/3 are brought through fire, refined and tested and will call the Lord their God and He will call them His people.
You teach there is another group not mentioned here who are Raptured, thus not tested, not refined. You have no verse that says this. You have nothing to account for the percentage of saved Jews who would be Raptured if a Rapture indeed exists.
We are told Satan wages war with and defeats Saints. We are told multitudes of Christians are killed during the Great Tribulation.
You explain this as these must be tribulation saints who did not make the cut for the rapture. There is no verse or scriptural support for the notion of a Tribulation Saint. No distinction is ever given.
We are told there will be a great apostasy or falling away before the Man of Sin is revealed.
You teach that after all believers are taken that a great rival happens with millions coming to Christ only to just as quickly fall away and turn back away from Christ and worship the AntiChrist. This concept is not taught and cannot be found in the Bible.
We are told that only those who persevere will be kept from the Hour of Trial that will come upon the whole earth.
You teach that no persevering is needed, we are taken before anything bad happens. Or you teach this verse doesn't apply to the whole earth as there is another group not mentioned here that is raptured. Further you teach the way we are kept from this trial is by being taken to heaven. No verse or teaching can be found to support your view.
We are taught that there is nothing new under the sun.
You teach that there are new things. No verse states this.
Jesus tells us plainly in direct response to a question about the end times that, "(HE) has told you all things."
You call Christ a liar by asserting that Christ left out the Rapture lesson instead allowed Paul to reveal it some 20+ years later. You have no verse that teaches Christ left out anything or that the Rapture lesson was reserved for Paul to reveal.
We are told that the Elect (who are on earth after the Tribulation) where chosen from the foundations of the earth. We are told they are faithful and true and spiritually virgin and that they are blameless before God and that they follow the Lamb wherever He goes.
You teach that they were unbelievers when the Rapture occurred and failed to make the cut. You teach they are second class Christians who are not invited to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb because they failed the initially make the cut.
Peter teaches that Paul's lessons are difficult to understand and that there will be those who twist Paul's words to their own destruction.
You teach that it is those who read the clear teachings who are doing the twisting and not you who have no scriptural support for most of your end times views.
God teaches that He is not the Author of Confusion. We are further told that Babel = Babylon = Satan who is deceptive.
You believe in a view that did not exist before 1830 and was not widely taught until the Revised Scofield Study Bible came out in 1917. You teach that this new view which did not exist for 1800 years is the truth and those of us who believe the classical view which the church held from Christ to Darby are the ones who are confused.
We are told Satan is the Master Deceiver and the Father of all Liars. We are told to put on the whole armor of God including girding our waist with truth that we might "Withstand in the Evil Day."
You teach we won't even be here for the Evil Day.
We are told there will be wolves in sheep's clothing looking to lead us astray.
You don't see any wolves or you see those speaking the clear Word as the wolves.
We are told to test everything (against the Word of God)
You teach a doctrine that has no Biblical bases which was developed by lumping together separate passages mostly from Paul - that Christ himself never taught. There is no Rapture lesson which tells the story start to finish. There is no word to distinguish one return from the other. You believe a doctrine were most of the key tenants cannot be found even separately, let alone not found together.
Dear Friend, the Pre-Trib Rapture view has more holes in it than Titanic. Just this one little new doctrine has completely twisted so much of the Bible and contorted the views and minds of millions of believers. Christ did not leave anything out. He did not stutter. He clearly stated when He was coming back and He never qualified the statement.
Jesus says clearly that He returns AFTER the Tribulation.
You disagree and say Jesus comes before the Tribulation. You have no verse to back up your view.
Paul says the Lord does not return until AFTER the Man of Sin is revealed.
You disagree and say Jesus comes before the Tribulation. You have no verse to back up your view.
Paul teaches that the gathering together to Christ happens at the Day of the Lord.
You teach that Paul tells one group of Thessalonians that they will be Raptured, then warns the same Thessalonians not to be deceived concerning the timing of Christ's return.
John gives dire Tribulation era warnings to churches to change their ways.
You state the church is taken to heaven although you have no verse that teaches this or shows the church in heaven.
God says Jesus is to return to earth and reign.
You say Jesus goes back to heaven and you have no verse that states Jesus returns to heaven after He comes.
We are told we must through tribulation enter the Kingdom of heaven, that we will suffer tribulation and be hated and killed for His name's sake.
You teach that there is an exception to this rule only for Christians who happen to be on earth just prior to the Tribulation. You have no verse where this doctrine has been reversed.
We are told to be the Salt and Light on earth.
You teach that during the greatest period of evil, we are to turn tail and run. You have no verse to support this view.
God calls the 144K his "firstfruits redeemed from men."
You disagree and instead have the church as the firstfruits. You have no verse to support this position.
God teaches in multiple places that Jesus is to remain at His right hand "until He has made the earth His footstool."
You believe Jesus disobeys God and sneaks off to earth for a rescue of the church before God has done anything to make earth His footstool. You have no verse to support this view.
Paul teaches that "DEATH" is the last enemy Christ defeats.
You teach that Christ defeats death as soon as He comes for the Rapture and before He defeats Satan, the Beast or anyone wicked. You have no verse that supports your position.
The author of Hebrews teaches that it is appointed until men once to die and after this comes the judgment and to those who await for Christ, He will appear a second time for salvation. Again, Christ defeats death last, at the end of His 1,000 year reign.
You teach that saved men don't die, rather they are transformed and taken to heaven. You teach Christ appears three times, not twice as Hebrews states. You further move the transformation from the end of the millennium to the Before the Tribulation. There is no such timing given and the context is clearly end of the World.
We are told to have patience and faith.
You teach no patience is needed. You have no scripture to support this view.
We are told to watch, that the Lord comes as a thief in the night.
You teach - no need to watch as we are gonna be outa here.
We are told that in all the land, 2/3 shall be cut off and die but 1/3 shall remain in it. The 1/3 are brought through fire, refined and tested and will call the Lord their God and He will call them His people.
You teach there is another group not mentioned here who are Raptured, thus not tested, not refined. You have no verse that says this. You have nothing to account for the percentage of saved Jews who would be Raptured if a Rapture indeed exists.
We are told Satan wages war with and defeats Saints. We are told multitudes of Christians are killed during the Great Tribulation.
You explain this as these must be tribulation saints who did not make the cut for the rapture. There is no verse or scriptural support for the notion of a Tribulation Saint. No distinction is ever given.
We are told there will be a great apostasy or falling away before the Man of Sin is revealed.
You teach that after all believers are taken that a great rival happens with millions coming to Christ only to just as quickly fall away and turn back away from Christ and worship the AntiChrist. This concept is not taught and cannot be found in the Bible.
We are told that only those who persevere will be kept from the Hour of Trial that will come upon the whole earth.
You teach that no persevering is needed, we are taken before anything bad happens. Or you teach this verse doesn't apply to the whole earth as there is another group not mentioned here that is raptured. Further you teach the way we are kept from this trial is by being taken to heaven. No verse or teaching can be found to support your view.
We are taught that there is nothing new under the sun.
You teach that there are new things. No verse states this.
Jesus tells us plainly in direct response to a question about the end times that, "(HE) has told you all things."
You call Christ a liar by asserting that Christ left out the Rapture lesson instead allowed Paul to reveal it some 20+ years later. You have no verse that teaches Christ left out anything or that the Rapture lesson was reserved for Paul to reveal.
We are told that the Elect (who are on earth after the Tribulation) where chosen from the foundations of the earth. We are told they are faithful and true and spiritually virgin and that they are blameless before God and that they follow the Lamb wherever He goes.
You teach that they were unbelievers when the Rapture occurred and failed to make the cut. You teach they are second class Christians who are not invited to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb because they failed the initially make the cut.
Peter teaches that Paul's lessons are difficult to understand and that there will be those who twist Paul's words to their own destruction.
You teach that it is those who read the clear teachings who are doing the twisting and not you who have no scriptural support for most of your end times views.
God teaches that He is not the Author of Confusion. We are further told that Babel = Babylon = Satan who is deceptive.
You believe in a view that did not exist before 1830 and was not widely taught until the Revised Scofield Study Bible came out in 1917. You teach that this new view which did not exist for 1800 years is the truth and those of us who believe the classical view which the church held from Christ to Darby are the ones who are confused.
We are told Satan is the Master Deceiver and the Father of all Liars. We are told to put on the whole armor of God including girding our waist with truth that we might "Withstand in the Evil Day."
You teach we won't even be here for the Evil Day.
We are told there will be wolves in sheep's clothing looking to lead us astray.
You don't see any wolves or you see those speaking the clear Word as the wolves.
We are told to test everything (against the Word of God)
You teach a doctrine that has no Biblical bases which was developed by lumping together separate passages mostly from Paul - that Christ himself never taught. There is no Rapture lesson which tells the story start to finish. There is no word to distinguish one return from the other. You believe a doctrine were most of the key tenants cannot be found even separately, let alone not found together.
Dear Friend, the Pre-Trib Rapture view has more holes in it than Titanic. Just this one little new doctrine has completely twisted so much of the Bible and contorted the views and minds of millions of believers. Christ did not leave anything out. He did not stutter. He clearly stated when He was coming back and He never qualified the statement.
It has been my observation that Israel does not perceive a kingdom in heaven. Israel looks for a kingdom on this earth. Eternal yet earthly. Israel looks for a resurrection when the dead are judged. Jesus taught that they were judged already. Judgment is based on one's relationship to the Messiah Christ. Believers enter into eternal life and unbelievers enter into eternal condemnation.
Believers have tribulation in this world because they are righteous. When the unbelievers have tribulation in this world it will be heavenly judgment for their wickedness. The two are never combined. God has used the wicked to judge Israel. God has then judged the wicked for their wickedness. God took Israel into captivity then when the captivity was complete God sent recompense to the captors. Keep the pattern in mind.
The rapture is God calling up the church. The church meets Christ in the air. Christ came to Israel as a man and was crucified and rejected by Israel. Christ will come again to Israel this time as their King to defeat all those who have come up against Israel to destroy them from the face of the earth.
Those who are raised in the resurrection of the dead are raised to be cast into the lake of fire. We see no redeemed people standing before the Great White Throne only the condemned.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Believers have tribulation in this world because they are righteous. When the unbelievers have tribulation in this world it will be heavenly judgment for their wickedness. The two are never combined. God has used the wicked to judge Israel. God has then judged the wicked for their wickedness. God took Israel into captivity then when the captivity was complete God sent recompense to the captors. Keep the pattern in mind.
The rapture is God calling up the church. The church meets Christ in the air. Christ came to Israel as a man and was crucified and rejected by Israel. Christ will come again to Israel this time as their King to defeat all those who have come up against Israel to destroy them from the face of the earth.
Those who are raised in the resurrection of the dead are raised to be cast into the lake of fire. We see no redeemed people standing before the Great White Throne only the condemned.
For the cause of Christ
Roger