S
Okay... but I still haven't really gotten a clear explanation for your answers. And don't get me wrong- thank you all for replying at all but none of this has really helped much in all honesty because there's no real structure to your arguments. You pull out bible verses to try and support yourselves but the bible Isn't a sweet shop where you can just pick and choose certain verses to try and prove your point. They all have their own meaning and in some cases if you care to read the whole chapters that these verses are in they don't really go along with what you say at all. While I admit it is easy to do, and I can do this too but I'm not really interested in people's bias opinions I'm just trying to figure out the truth.
Sorry it's taken so long to reply but I wanted to address each of your posts individually if I can.
I've been doing a lot of prayer and studying of the bible and research of my own and this is what I've come up with.
Also don't take anything specifically personal, while I am addressing each of your posts, I am also addressing everyone else as well so I do encourage if you are going to respond to this post please read the whole thing and I don't mean to offend anyone either.
So Cinder's post. I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my thread and try your best to help and thank you for not freaking out as so many Christians tend to do. I get what you're saying in a way. And you're right the bible doesn't speak directly about transgender as this was not something that really came up back then. But if God knows all things wouldn't he know this would happen and wouldn't he have some sort of explanation about it in the bible if it were something that important?
You mentioned Genesis 1:27: God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. I mean... is gender really the point of this verse? I can't speak for the meaning of the bible of course, and neither can you or anyone else really because it is God's word and who are we to say we know exactly what any of it means- but sometimes I feel people try to dig too deep and pick out things they think mean one thing that have nothing to do with anything. Perhaps this verse has nothing to do with specific genders at all. It may just merely be saying we are "made in His image or likeness" meaning that we were simply made to resemble God. That we are all equally and wonderfully made regardless of our gender.
So there's the Psalm 139 that says God Knits us together in the womb and that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. Yea. Okay that's great. I am unique. I am my own person and wonderfully made. I know that. I don't feel like I am weird or hopelessly messed up because I mean.. This is just how I am. I feel like it's really less about "being born in the wrong body" as it is that I don't identify with the gender stereotypes of today.
As for finding "a more descriptive and less labeling way to think and talk" about this I mean.. I've always felt that I identified more with guys. I've always had more guy friends and that was by my own choice. I know having guy friends didn't influence the way I felt. I had more guy friends because that's who I was more comfortable around and I could empathize with guys more. I still feel that way. And I don't want to be a girl. To be honest, it sucks. It's just such a pain having been born a girl I could go on and on but anyhoo that's not what I am anyways. I mean.. I could be a pretty great girl if I wanted to be but I just feel like that's not what I am at all. I feel like I have to be stuck in all these gender stereotypes and yes, it would be so much easier if I had been biologically born a guy. But no matter, I am a male. I don't think I am, I know I am.
After reading that last paragraph, I'm sure you've realized that I was biologically born a girl. But the reason why you all think I was biologically born a boy is because that's the gender I chose for my profile. And for every site that requires it, I always choose that gender because male is what I identify as. Which is also why I was kind of upset but then such a huge smile went across my face after read pwrnJC's post. You know what? I try, and I would love to make Jesus Christ my complete focus. In fact I admire anyone who does because it can so often be a difficult thing to do as our lives and stresses and problems interfere. Yes, I know God has a plan and a place for me. And in the most respectful way, I see that you are so obviously bias against transgender people without any reasoning at all. Though I do appreciate your prayers and I too pray that "one year from now, if we chat, that I will be all MAN that HE wants for me." And who knows? Maybe I will "have a goatee and you'll see me teaching a Sunday school class or preaching behind a pulpit or on a mission field or serving in a soup kitchen, preaching JESUS"
I do believe that you misunderstand me, sir. I have no intention of making myself identifying as male take over my life. In fact, I help out with the children and youth at my church now. I have been on many missions trips to Mexico, and various states around the U.S., I am a part of a Christian dance company and we take bible stories and dance them out to music in places all around Florida all to glorify God and tell people about His name. Although I have put that I am "unsure" about my Christianity in my "About Me", I want to be. And I strive to understand the things of God and the Bible and I look for answers on things based on prayer and His word rather than just going by the advice of people themselves. Which is why I posted here in the first place. I've been doing my own research on this but I wanted to see what other people thought, as well as to see what they have found about what the Bible says about this in case they found something I missed.
So may I repeat, my focus is NOT entirely upon myself, my feelings, my emotions, my physical body, and what not. In fact it is quite opposite. Like I said, this is why I posted in the first place because like Cinder said, I do have a desire to please God. And I honestly believe I can do that no matter what gender I identify with. I'm not choosing to be transgender of following God. Like Ugly said, being transgender is not a choice.
Oh, and who are you to tell someone that just because they are wearing high heels, girdles, makeup, push up bras, and shaving is not part of God's plan and that it will not usher in His kingdom on earth? Sorry, but do you know God's plan for each and every one of us? I think not.
Also: Zoii, thank you for your kind words.
So for Elijah19's post: You say God created us exactly as we are right now. He doesn't make mistakes. You say that" to question God's design for your body is to question His design for your earthly life." I guess I can understand that sort of..but... how do you know that. There really... isn't anything in the bible against transgender. Like I've said, if God knew it would come up and He was against it, wouldn't you think He would have something about it in the Bible? Anyways, saying to question His design.. It sounds kind of what my mom would say that being transgender is "destroying God's temple" as in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 it says "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies." So... I guess changing my outward appearance to feel better about myself so I can be closer to the gender I identify with is destroying my body? Going against His design huh... wouldn't that mean that tattoos, piercings, and dying your hair would be a sin too? In fact, Leviticus 19:28 says that getting tattoos is a sin, yet there are so many Christians who get tattoos and lots of people also get piercings and dye their hair all the time. If it was God's design for someone to have blonde hair are you going to condemn them for dying their hair brown? Are you going to tell all those Christians who get tattoos and piercings and dye their hair that they are destroying God's temple? Probably not.
Bassey: so. You say "living as a transgender is sin, God created males to be males and females to be females, anything outside of this is not of God." I mean how do you know that? Where in the Bible does it say that? You say it's "often referred to as perverse" by whom? You? People? Has God ever said that? Does the Bible say that?
Okay now this Deuteronomy 22:5 verse has really been the thing that has confused me the most. And it is the verse that is thrown in my face most of the time to tell me that being myself is a sin. But I've been doing so much research on this and here is what I've found:
The phrase "which pertaineth unto a man" doesn't exactly refer to clothing like people try to insist upon. It really seems to mean accouterments or accessories of men. (Which I suppose could include apparel.) Someone examined the Hebrew word that is used which is translated into the general term "Man". The word is 'geber', which means a man who has strength or might. In Hebrew. The word that modifies geber is 'kel-ee', which refers to implements, utensils, vessels, and apparatuses that aren't specifically named in the verse. But because geber refers to a man who is strong or mighty, many commentators believe that the implements being spoken of are implements of war, such as armor and weapons. And this would actually make sense because back then the women of gentile nations would dress up as men of war as a way of worshiping their gods.
The phrase "neither shall a man put on a woman's garment", is related in the same way almost. It was a common thing among the pagan nations of Palestine for male priests to dress in female clothing, wear make-up, jewels, scarves, and veils in various temples as a part of religious activities and worship of their gods as well.
So obviously God would hate it and make a law against it. Today people use this verse as a way to go against transgendered people or some go as far as to say that women shouldn't wear pants because it is an "abomination" unto the Lord. But... I honestly can say I don't think that's really what this verse was talking about. Because it also has a lot of other laws in this chapter that only applied in that time. I mean... we wear clothing with different fabrics, and we plant different things next to each other, and we don't sew tassels onto the corners of our clothes anymore right? But anyways, like I said. I don't even think this is what the verse was talking about. It's just like the other laws. I mean... to the best of my knowledge people don't dress up as the opposite gender to worship their gods. And even if they do, that's not what I'm doing at all. That has nothing to do with being transgender.
Now finally, Ugly's post. You've really been the most understandable, as most of the things you're saying I've thought through myself. Things that most people don't even think about. I agree with you that it isn't right to condemn a person who is transgender, or label it as a sin. And you're right it's not right to justify it as what God intended either. There's no scripture on the issue so... that leads really back to my original question actually. But you know... you actually have helped the most. And... while I just wanted to hear from other people's opinion, I have been praying about this a lot. And I know I'll figure this out eventually. It's just so difficult to know what's right or wrong in this situation.
But thank you all for trying to help. As for is it a sin or not... I still don't know for sure. But hopefully this summer will lead to some answers.
To anyone who bothered to even read this whole thing, I'd still like to know what you think. And I'm so sorry this post is so long I didn't mean for this but once I got typing... I just had to keep going haha sorry bout that. Anyhoo... Hope you all are having a lovely day.
Sorry it's taken so long to reply but I wanted to address each of your posts individually if I can.
I've been doing a lot of prayer and studying of the bible and research of my own and this is what I've come up with.
Also don't take anything specifically personal, while I am addressing each of your posts, I am also addressing everyone else as well so I do encourage if you are going to respond to this post please read the whole thing and I don't mean to offend anyone either.
So Cinder's post. I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my thread and try your best to help and thank you for not freaking out as so many Christians tend to do. I get what you're saying in a way. And you're right the bible doesn't speak directly about transgender as this was not something that really came up back then. But if God knows all things wouldn't he know this would happen and wouldn't he have some sort of explanation about it in the bible if it were something that important?
You mentioned Genesis 1:27: God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. I mean... is gender really the point of this verse? I can't speak for the meaning of the bible of course, and neither can you or anyone else really because it is God's word and who are we to say we know exactly what any of it means- but sometimes I feel people try to dig too deep and pick out things they think mean one thing that have nothing to do with anything. Perhaps this verse has nothing to do with specific genders at all. It may just merely be saying we are "made in His image or likeness" meaning that we were simply made to resemble God. That we are all equally and wonderfully made regardless of our gender.
So there's the Psalm 139 that says God Knits us together in the womb and that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. Yea. Okay that's great. I am unique. I am my own person and wonderfully made. I know that. I don't feel like I am weird or hopelessly messed up because I mean.. This is just how I am. I feel like it's really less about "being born in the wrong body" as it is that I don't identify with the gender stereotypes of today.
As for finding "a more descriptive and less labeling way to think and talk" about this I mean.. I've always felt that I identified more with guys. I've always had more guy friends and that was by my own choice. I know having guy friends didn't influence the way I felt. I had more guy friends because that's who I was more comfortable around and I could empathize with guys more. I still feel that way. And I don't want to be a girl. To be honest, it sucks. It's just such a pain having been born a girl I could go on and on but anyhoo that's not what I am anyways. I mean.. I could be a pretty great girl if I wanted to be but I just feel like that's not what I am at all. I feel like I have to be stuck in all these gender stereotypes and yes, it would be so much easier if I had been biologically born a guy. But no matter, I am a male. I don't think I am, I know I am.
After reading that last paragraph, I'm sure you've realized that I was biologically born a girl. But the reason why you all think I was biologically born a boy is because that's the gender I chose for my profile. And for every site that requires it, I always choose that gender because male is what I identify as. Which is also why I was kind of upset but then such a huge smile went across my face after read pwrnJC's post. You know what? I try, and I would love to make Jesus Christ my complete focus. In fact I admire anyone who does because it can so often be a difficult thing to do as our lives and stresses and problems interfere. Yes, I know God has a plan and a place for me. And in the most respectful way, I see that you are so obviously bias against transgender people without any reasoning at all. Though I do appreciate your prayers and I too pray that "one year from now, if we chat, that I will be all MAN that HE wants for me." And who knows? Maybe I will "have a goatee and you'll see me teaching a Sunday school class or preaching behind a pulpit or on a mission field or serving in a soup kitchen, preaching JESUS"
I do believe that you misunderstand me, sir. I have no intention of making myself identifying as male take over my life. In fact, I help out with the children and youth at my church now. I have been on many missions trips to Mexico, and various states around the U.S., I am a part of a Christian dance company and we take bible stories and dance them out to music in places all around Florida all to glorify God and tell people about His name. Although I have put that I am "unsure" about my Christianity in my "About Me", I want to be. And I strive to understand the things of God and the Bible and I look for answers on things based on prayer and His word rather than just going by the advice of people themselves. Which is why I posted here in the first place. I've been doing my own research on this but I wanted to see what other people thought, as well as to see what they have found about what the Bible says about this in case they found something I missed.
So may I repeat, my focus is NOT entirely upon myself, my feelings, my emotions, my physical body, and what not. In fact it is quite opposite. Like I said, this is why I posted in the first place because like Cinder said, I do have a desire to please God. And I honestly believe I can do that no matter what gender I identify with. I'm not choosing to be transgender of following God. Like Ugly said, being transgender is not a choice.
Oh, and who are you to tell someone that just because they are wearing high heels, girdles, makeup, push up bras, and shaving is not part of God's plan and that it will not usher in His kingdom on earth? Sorry, but do you know God's plan for each and every one of us? I think not.
Also: Zoii, thank you for your kind words.
So for Elijah19's post: You say God created us exactly as we are right now. He doesn't make mistakes. You say that" to question God's design for your body is to question His design for your earthly life." I guess I can understand that sort of..but... how do you know that. There really... isn't anything in the bible against transgender. Like I've said, if God knew it would come up and He was against it, wouldn't you think He would have something about it in the Bible? Anyways, saying to question His design.. It sounds kind of what my mom would say that being transgender is "destroying God's temple" as in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 it says "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies." So... I guess changing my outward appearance to feel better about myself so I can be closer to the gender I identify with is destroying my body? Going against His design huh... wouldn't that mean that tattoos, piercings, and dying your hair would be a sin too? In fact, Leviticus 19:28 says that getting tattoos is a sin, yet there are so many Christians who get tattoos and lots of people also get piercings and dye their hair all the time. If it was God's design for someone to have blonde hair are you going to condemn them for dying their hair brown? Are you going to tell all those Christians who get tattoos and piercings and dye their hair that they are destroying God's temple? Probably not.
Bassey: so. You say "living as a transgender is sin, God created males to be males and females to be females, anything outside of this is not of God." I mean how do you know that? Where in the Bible does it say that? You say it's "often referred to as perverse" by whom? You? People? Has God ever said that? Does the Bible say that?
Okay now this Deuteronomy 22:5 verse has really been the thing that has confused me the most. And it is the verse that is thrown in my face most of the time to tell me that being myself is a sin. But I've been doing so much research on this and here is what I've found:
The phrase "which pertaineth unto a man" doesn't exactly refer to clothing like people try to insist upon. It really seems to mean accouterments or accessories of men. (Which I suppose could include apparel.) Someone examined the Hebrew word that is used which is translated into the general term "Man". The word is 'geber', which means a man who has strength or might. In Hebrew. The word that modifies geber is 'kel-ee', which refers to implements, utensils, vessels, and apparatuses that aren't specifically named in the verse. But because geber refers to a man who is strong or mighty, many commentators believe that the implements being spoken of are implements of war, such as armor and weapons. And this would actually make sense because back then the women of gentile nations would dress up as men of war as a way of worshiping their gods.
The phrase "neither shall a man put on a woman's garment", is related in the same way almost. It was a common thing among the pagan nations of Palestine for male priests to dress in female clothing, wear make-up, jewels, scarves, and veils in various temples as a part of religious activities and worship of their gods as well.
So obviously God would hate it and make a law against it. Today people use this verse as a way to go against transgendered people or some go as far as to say that women shouldn't wear pants because it is an "abomination" unto the Lord. But... I honestly can say I don't think that's really what this verse was talking about. Because it also has a lot of other laws in this chapter that only applied in that time. I mean... we wear clothing with different fabrics, and we plant different things next to each other, and we don't sew tassels onto the corners of our clothes anymore right? But anyways, like I said. I don't even think this is what the verse was talking about. It's just like the other laws. I mean... to the best of my knowledge people don't dress up as the opposite gender to worship their gods. And even if they do, that's not what I'm doing at all. That has nothing to do with being transgender.
Now finally, Ugly's post. You've really been the most understandable, as most of the things you're saying I've thought through myself. Things that most people don't even think about. I agree with you that it isn't right to condemn a person who is transgender, or label it as a sin. And you're right it's not right to justify it as what God intended either. There's no scripture on the issue so... that leads really back to my original question actually. But you know... you actually have helped the most. And... while I just wanted to hear from other people's opinion, I have been praying about this a lot. And I know I'll figure this out eventually. It's just so difficult to know what's right or wrong in this situation.
But thank you all for trying to help. As for is it a sin or not... I still don't know for sure. But hopefully this summer will lead to some answers.
To anyone who bothered to even read this whole thing, I'd still like to know what you think. And I'm so sorry this post is so long I didn't mean for this but once I got typing... I just had to keep going haha sorry bout that. Anyhoo... Hope you all are having a lovely day.