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U
????????? Where did you get that from ? His reference was to the early church in it's infancy .... not the apostles. Truly remarkable ... but not surprising.
The pathway to heaven consists of honest, intensive investigation of written revelation, and a life of diligent self-discipline and self-denial that strives to incorporate spiritual attributes into one’s life—attributes like patience, compassion, kindness, humility, forgiveness, honesty, integrity, peace of soul, joy, and clean, moral living. There are no short cuts to spirituality. The miraculous is no answer. Even in the first century, miracles were not designed to develop these spiritual attributes.
In the final analysis, we are under obligation to seek His assistance by listening to the instructions found in His written Word. Only words from God, then and now, will equip us and prepare us for eternity. As Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:68, emp. added).
The pathway to heaven consists of honest, intensive investigation of written revelation, and a life of diligent self-discipline and self-denial that strives to incorporate spiritual attributes into one’s life—attributes like patience, compassion, kindness, humility, forgiveness, honesty, integrity, peace of soul, joy, and clean, moral living. There are no short cuts to spirituality. The miraculous is no answer. Even in the first century, miracles were not designed to develop these spiritual attributes.
In the final analysis, we are under obligation to seek His assistance by listening to the instructions found in His written Word. Only words from God, then and now, will equip us and prepare us for eternity. As Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:68, emp. added).
A
wow don't have time to comment just pray that people remember to respond to others words and not just react out of emotion. It is always wise to pray about it and the author's meaning instead of assuming that you know what they are speaking about.
the excerpt talks about the early church and I don't see what is wrong with it. It states an opinion that "the use of tongue-speaking and other miraculous enhancements in the church today would be comparable to an adult man or woman sucking on a pacifier!"
what I would say to refute such a position is that many churches established in remote areas of the world are still infant churches in need of a pacifier and when they are fully grown they will recognize the truth in Unclefester's words:
"
The pathway to heaven consists of honest, intensive investigation of written revelation, and a life of diligent self-discipline and self-denial that strives to incorporate spiritual attributes into one’s life—attributes like patience, compassion, kindness, humility, forgiveness, honesty, integrity, peace of soul, joy, and clean, moral living. There are no short cuts to spirituality. The miraculous is no answer."
Miracles are not for believers, they are for the conversion of those still lost in the world to faith in Christ.
I believe and seen them happen, but agree they are for the babes in Christ not for those who are mature to be seeking daily.
To pray for miracles is to be like a small child demanding a treat or asking God to dance when they pipe a tune.
Pray for wisdom, pray for patience, pray for the words to speak Truth in another's life. Pray for understanding and compassion.
too often people just pray selfish prayers and everyone should know what God says about it:
James 4
New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet[a] you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and[b] adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”[c]
wow wasn't expecting to type so much, I'm going to church now and strive to have a contrite and humble heart as God shows me my sins.
the excerpt talks about the early church and I don't see what is wrong with it. It states an opinion that "the use of tongue-speaking and other miraculous enhancements in the church today would be comparable to an adult man or woman sucking on a pacifier!"
what I would say to refute such a position is that many churches established in remote areas of the world are still infant churches in need of a pacifier and when they are fully grown they will recognize the truth in Unclefester's words:
"
The pathway to heaven consists of honest, intensive investigation of written revelation, and a life of diligent self-discipline and self-denial that strives to incorporate spiritual attributes into one’s life—attributes like patience, compassion, kindness, humility, forgiveness, honesty, integrity, peace of soul, joy, and clean, moral living. There are no short cuts to spirituality. The miraculous is no answer."
Miracles are not for believers, they are for the conversion of those still lost in the world to faith in Christ.
I believe and seen them happen, but agree they are for the babes in Christ not for those who are mature to be seeking daily.
To pray for miracles is to be like a small child demanding a treat or asking God to dance when they pipe a tune.
Pray for wisdom, pray for patience, pray for the words to speak Truth in another's life. Pray for understanding and compassion.
too often people just pray selfish prayers and everyone should know what God says about it:
James 4
New King James Version (NKJV)
4 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members? 2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet[a] you do not have because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures. 4 Adulterers and[b] adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, “The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously”?
6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says:
“God resists the proud,
But gives grace to the humble.”[c]
wow wasn't expecting to type so much, I'm going to church now and strive to have a contrite and humble heart as God shows me my sins.
Ariel,
You miss the point of miracles.
Do you think they are for a sign?
How can that be? When Jesus said an evil generation seeks signs. - Matt. 12:39; Mk. 8:12; Lk 11:29
Miracles are not for signs, they are for healings.
(Unless they are done on the sabbath, right?)
How is it that God would use miracles for a sign, thus contradicting His own words.
I guess the raising of Lazarus was just a sign for an evil generation.
And the raising of the widow's only son wasn't because Jesus had compassion(contrary to the Bible), He was just showing a sign to an untoward generation that sought them.
And the healing of the beggar at gate beautiful - Again, (not because the disciples perceived he had faith); but because they were giving signs to an evil generation that sought them.
So it is, theology contradicts scripture.
You miss the point of miracles.
Do you think they are for a sign?
How can that be? When Jesus said an evil generation seeks signs. - Matt. 12:39; Mk. 8:12; Lk 11:29
Miracles are not for signs, they are for healings.
(Unless they are done on the sabbath, right?)
How is it that God would use miracles for a sign, thus contradicting His own words.
I guess the raising of Lazarus was just a sign for an evil generation.
And the raising of the widow's only son wasn't because Jesus had compassion(contrary to the Bible), He was just showing a sign to an untoward generation that sought them.
And the healing of the beggar at gate beautiful - Again, (not because the disciples perceived he had faith); but because they were giving signs to an evil generation that sought them.
So it is, theology contradicts scripture.
A
sigh....
1 Corinthians 14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
why do my words get misunderstood when I forget to quote the reference verse?
it's not me who is missing the point of miracles:
Luke 4
25 But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; 26 but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath,[m] in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.
1 Corinthians 14:22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.
why do my words get misunderstood when I forget to quote the reference verse?
it's not me who is missing the point of miracles:
Luke 4
25 But I tell you truly, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, and there was a great famine throughout all the land; 26 but to none of them was Elijah sent except to Zarephath,[m] in the region of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet, and none of them was cleansed except Naaman the Syrian.
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U
There is a huge gap between God answering our prayers, which He sometimes does to His glory and for His purpose and what some today call the "gift of performing miracles".
When an inspired speaker stepped forward to declare God’s Word, God validated or endorsed the speaker’s remarks by empowering the speaker to perform a miracle. Many New Testament passages articulate this fact quite plainly. For example, the apostles “went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed” (Mark 16:20, emp. added). The Hebrews writer asked: “[H]ow shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation; which having at the first been spoken through the Lord, was confirmed unto us by them that heard; God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit” (Hebrews 2:3-4, emp. added). Referring to the initial proclamation of the Gospel to the Samaritans, Luke stated: “[A]nd the multitudes gave heed with one accord unto the things that were spoken by Philip, when they heard, and saw the signs which he did” (Acts 8:6, emp. added). The apostles prayed to God: “[G]rant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness, while thou stretchest forth thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done” (Acts 4:29-30, emp. added).
These passages, and many others (e.g., Acts 13:12; 14:3; 15:12; Romans 15:18-19; 1 Corinthians 2:4; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; cf. Exodus 4:30), show that the purpose of miracles was to authenticate the oral/spoken word as God’s Word. Miracles legitimized and verified the teaching of God’s messengers, as over against the many false teachers (like Simon in Acts 8:9, or Pharaoh’s magicians in Exodus 7:11) who attempted to mislead the people. In the late nineteenth century, Greek lexicographer Joseph Thayer worded this point well when he noted that “sign” (semeion) was used in the New Testament “of miracles and wonders by which God authenticates the men sent by him, or by which men prove that the cause they are pleading is God’s” (1901, p. 573). Even the miracles that Jesus performed were designed to back up His claim (i.e., spoken words) to be deity. Consider two examples: (1) Using the parallel term “works” (a key word in the book of John), Jesus remarked to Philip, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works’ sake” (John 14:10-11, emp. added); (2) Nicodemus said to Jesus: “Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that thou doest except God be with him” (John 3:2, emp. added). This pattern is repeated in the New Testament many times over (e.g., John 2:23; 5:36; 6:14; 7:31; 10:37-38,41-42; 20:30-31; Acts 2:22). In other words, Jesus performed signs and miracles to prove His divine identity and thereby authenticate His message. His message, in turn, generated faith in those who chose to believe His teachings (cf. Romans 10:17). Here is the consistent sequence presented in Scripture: Signs → Word → Faith. (1) Signs confirmed the Word; (2) the Word was presented to hearers; and (3) faith was created (by the Word) in those who received it.
Apologetics Press - Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation--EXTENDED VERSION
When an inspired speaker stepped forward to declare God’s Word, God validated or endorsed the speaker’s remarks by empowering the speaker to perform a miracle. Many New Testament passages articulate this fact quite plainly. For example, the apostles “went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word by the signs that followed” (Mark 16:20, emp. added). The Hebrews writer asked: “[H]ow shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation; which having at the first been spoken through the Lord, was confirmed unto us by them that heard; God also bearing witness with them, both by signs and wonders, and by manifold powers, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit” (Hebrews 2:3-4, emp. added). Referring to the initial proclamation of the Gospel to the Samaritans, Luke stated: “[A]nd the multitudes gave heed with one accord unto the things that were spoken by Philip, when they heard, and saw the signs which he did” (Acts 8:6, emp. added). The apostles prayed to God: “[G]rant unto thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness, while thou stretchest forth thy hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done” (Acts 4:29-30, emp. added).
These passages, and many others (e.g., Acts 13:12; 14:3; 15:12; Romans 15:18-19; 1 Corinthians 2:4; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; cf. Exodus 4:30), show that the purpose of miracles was to authenticate the oral/spoken word as God’s Word. Miracles legitimized and verified the teaching of God’s messengers, as over against the many false teachers (like Simon in Acts 8:9, or Pharaoh’s magicians in Exodus 7:11) who attempted to mislead the people. In the late nineteenth century, Greek lexicographer Joseph Thayer worded this point well when he noted that “sign” (semeion) was used in the New Testament “of miracles and wonders by which God authenticates the men sent by him, or by which men prove that the cause they are pleading is God’s” (1901, p. 573). Even the miracles that Jesus performed were designed to back up His claim (i.e., spoken words) to be deity. Consider two examples: (1) Using the parallel term “works” (a key word in the book of John), Jesus remarked to Philip, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me: or else believe Me for the very works’ sake” (John 14:10-11, emp. added); (2) Nicodemus said to Jesus: “Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that thou doest except God be with him” (John 3:2, emp. added). This pattern is repeated in the New Testament many times over (e.g., John 2:23; 5:36; 6:14; 7:31; 10:37-38,41-42; 20:30-31; Acts 2:22). In other words, Jesus performed signs and miracles to prove His divine identity and thereby authenticate His message. His message, in turn, generated faith in those who chose to believe His teachings (cf. Romans 10:17). Here is the consistent sequence presented in Scripture: Signs → Word → Faith. (1) Signs confirmed the Word; (2) the Word was presented to hearers; and (3) faith was created (by the Word) in those who received it.
Apologetics Press - Modern-Day Miracles, Tongue-Speaking, and Holy Spirit Baptism: A Refutation--EXTENDED VERSION
P
Perhaps the 'sign gifts' could be both?
A sign for unbelievers, and for believers to walk in?
I honestly don't know. I have never seen them used appropriately.
I have never seen them bringing glory to God, but only to the one 'using' them.
Yet I can see no clear refutation, or doing away, with them in the Word.
(if someone else can, I honestly would like to learn!)
Just...let's not allow this to divide us! ♥
Let's continue to seek Jesus, and to walk in blessed unity.
A sign for unbelievers, and for believers to walk in?
I honestly don't know. I have never seen them used appropriately.
I have never seen them bringing glory to God, but only to the one 'using' them.
Yet I can see no clear refutation, or doing away, with them in the Word.
(if someone else can, I honestly would like to learn!)
Just...let's not allow this to divide us! ♥
Let's continue to seek Jesus, and to walk in blessed unity.
A
are you forgetting the many verses about signs and the coming of Christ? will you take the WHOLE truth or just what fits what you want to say?
unrelated to topic being discussed. they seek signs and are evil does not mean that God does not tell His people to look for signs. I can give you examples verses but I'll respond to the rest of your post first.
unrelated to topic being discussed. they seek signs and are evil does not mean that God does not tell His people to look for signs. I can give you examples verses but I'll respond to the rest of your post first.
U
Perhaps the 'sign gifts' could be both?
A sign for unbelievers, and for believers to walk in?
I honestly don't know. I have never seen them used appropriately.
I have never seen them bringing glory to God, but only to the one 'using' them.
Yet I can see no clear refutation, or doing away, with them in the Word.
(if someone else can, I honestly would like to learn!)
Just...let's not allow this to divide us! ♥
Let's continue to seek Jesus, and to walk in blessed unity.
A sign for unbelievers, and for believers to walk in?
I honestly don't know. I have never seen them used appropriately.
I have never seen them bringing glory to God, but only to the one 'using' them.
Yet I can see no clear refutation, or doing away, with them in the Word.
(if someone else can, I honestly would like to learn!)
Just...let's not allow this to divide us! ♥
Let's continue to seek Jesus, and to walk in blessed unity.
) And I scarcely believe that any two of us would ever come to a 100% consensus on matters pertaining to God's Word. But I won't and can't shrink back from expressing those things that I believe to be true concerning God's Word ... even at the expense of being frowned upon by some here. I won't be spending too much time on these matters though. Just enough to respond to a question or two directed this way ... and leave discernment to it's task. I agree Ellie ... ours is to continue to seek Jesus. He is faithful and He is able 
Ellie I find the answer in the Bible and the best verses to show what happens when the Holy Spirit does become the indwelling Spirit I will put down for you....
1. Acts 1:8... But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:
2. Acts 10:45.... because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. 1 Cor 12..... The Corinthians lives in the same age we do. We have the EXACT same Godly timeline than them. What was availible to them is just as available to us, look at these verses, then you know what I mean by the ONLY ONE CHURCH does these things... God's! Just because you and I did not see it yet does not mean it does not happen, maybe we just look in the wrong places....
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
Do I have a gift, and does it profit withal. I think I might have the gift of "word of knowledge". A young Methodist minister once said.... Mr. Myburgh you have a wonderful gift.... "You understand scripture"... He was my Ellie's youth minister. Did God not say we should make Him great in our quiet times and He will make us great publically. I did not even thought that way, when that minister said it to me. I must say, it was VERY appriciated, although you are one of the FEW I told.
Ellie, God's Word makes perfect sense to me. I healed people at the Jesus film showings, I saw miricles happen through me, and I profited only wisdom by them. The others profited HEALING, and witnesses. Me, I knew this was not all. There is this expectation, that God does not only make us holy, and ABLE to represent Him as one who is sent, God also enables all His children with gifts of HIMSELF. It is the Holy Spirit (God) that performs all HOLY SPIRIT works.
If God wants a miricle done, HE DOES IT THROUGH HIS SPIRIT. Need healing, Your elders that are supposed to be FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, should annoint you and pray in the Name, and if they do pray with FAITH, God will heal, and even give a bonus, if the man had sin against Him God will also clear that! NOW THAT is healing. Did this stop, because God stopped it, or did this stop because the elders is not full of Holy Spirit, and do not have FAITH! I say it stopped for the unbeliever, NOT THE FAITHFUL ELDER!
James 5: Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
To all readers.....This is what I believe elders in God's church still do today. Where is this church.... guess! And also guess why you do not know of this church, that is if you do not!
Lord Jesus thank you that YOU ARE STILL THE HEAD OF YOUR CHURCH HERE ON EARTH! AMEN!
1. Acts 1:8... But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you:
2. Acts 10:45.... because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
3. 1 Cor 12..... The Corinthians lives in the same age we do. We have the EXACT same Godly timeline than them. What was availible to them is just as available to us, look at these verses, then you know what I mean by the ONLY ONE CHURCH does these things... God's! Just because you and I did not see it yet does not mean it does not happen, maybe we just look in the wrong places....
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
Do I have a gift, and does it profit withal. I think I might have the gift of "word of knowledge". A young Methodist minister once said.... Mr. Myburgh you have a wonderful gift.... "You understand scripture"... He was my Ellie's youth minister. Did God not say we should make Him great in our quiet times and He will make us great publically. I did not even thought that way, when that minister said it to me. I must say, it was VERY appriciated, although you are one of the FEW I told.
Ellie, God's Word makes perfect sense to me. I healed people at the Jesus film showings, I saw miricles happen through me, and I profited only wisdom by them. The others profited HEALING, and witnesses. Me, I knew this was not all. There is this expectation, that God does not only make us holy, and ABLE to represent Him as one who is sent, God also enables all His children with gifts of HIMSELF. It is the Holy Spirit (God) that performs all HOLY SPIRIT works.
If God wants a miricle done, HE DOES IT THROUGH HIS SPIRIT. Need healing, Your elders that are supposed to be FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, should annoint you and pray in the Name, and if they do pray with FAITH, God will heal, and even give a bonus, if the man had sin against Him God will also clear that! NOW THAT is healing. Did this stop, because God stopped it, or did this stop because the elders is not full of Holy Spirit, and do not have FAITH! I say it stopped for the unbeliever, NOT THE FAITHFUL ELDER!
James 5: Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
To all readers.....This is what I believe elders in God's church still do today. Where is this church.... guess! And also guess why you do not know of this church, that is if you do not!
Lord Jesus thank you that YOU ARE STILL THE HEAD OF YOUR CHURCH HERE ON EARTH! AMEN!
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