Well, I thought I'd offer a pretty good but by no means exhaustive explanation as to why Orthodox consider The Church, the True Church.
(start disclaimer)
Now, I'm not doing this to debate for or against. I think the only way we can proceed with a conversation like this without getting personal and resorting to attacks is simply to offer whichever definition of church what one might have, personally or denomination/sect-wise. So, having said that, I do hope we don't get all huffy. If you notice the feathers starting to ruffle, take a step back, breath, pray and if you think you're just gonna flip yer lid, maybe just refrain from posting at all. Love love love. Can't say it enough.
(end disclaimer)
Even if you don't read the article, I'd just like to know what it is Church means to you. What IS Church? How does denomination/Sect fit in? Is Apostolic succession no longer in play? I believe this is a really important topic and I think we should at least have a solid understanding of our doctrine in regards to Ecclesiology.
So, again, the point of the thread is not to demonize a certain denomination/sect but to meditate on and prayerfully answer the question, what IS Church?
Here's an Orthodox response to the question:
Does Orthodoxy Really Think It Is the "True Church"?
by Reader Timothy Copple
When Peter Guilquest gave a talk at our church around the beginning of 1997, he commented that the question he was most often asked was how the Orthodox Church could consider itself "The Church". Indeed, this is not only a common question among inquirers to Orthodoxy, but a critical question to understand Orthodoxy itself. If there is one subject that Protestants have the hardest time coming to grips with, it is this claim of Orthodoxy to be The Church.
Within Protestant denominations, there is a wide cross section of ideas when it comes to what the Church is. It can be summarized in two general basic views.
First, the most common understanding is that the Church in its essence is spiritual, is primarily built by adding to its numbers people who believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God as their personal savior and who have their names written in the Lamb's book of Life spoken of in Revelations. This Church is one, connected by their devotion to Jesus Christ, and will only be fully manifested as such in the last days when Jesus Christ will return for His Church. Until then, the visible manifestation of the Church on Earth is divided by differing theologies on various points, various governing bodies and groups which in and of themselves are known to not be the fullness of the Church. They are only partially the Church in as much as there are true Christians in them, in as much as their theology reflects true Biblical theology, and to the degree that God can be seen to work in and through a particular group bearing the name "Christian".
Secondly, there are some groups who bear the name "Christian", while in the minority, consider themselves to be the Church and the sole people who will be "saved" in the end. To be part of the Church and to be saved one must join their group or participate in their rituals. This is the basic antithesis to the other view that no one group can claim to be "The Church".
Within these broad categories, various groups will "draw the line" at different points, excluding some groups that others might include. It is a mixed bag and there are no hard and fast rules as to where one might find the "Church" on earth. Part of this comes from a very personalized relationship with Christ in many quarters of Protestantism, so much so that a corporate Body is a secondary, and in some cases, an unnecessary issue.
It should be evident to most Orthodox, if they readily understand this divergence, why it so goes against most Protestants to say that the Orthodox Church is the fullness of The Church. On the one hand, to say that goes against the Protestant foundation of what it means to be the Church and is usually interpreted as "you are on the outside and will not be saved unless you join our group." For the others who believe they are the Church, it is like two children saying "I'm the Church," "No, I'm the Church!"
These reactions, while understandable for one coming from a Protestant background, are reacting to Protestant understandings superimposed upon Orthodoxy, and not upon Orthodoxy's understanding of itself. So it is critical that we look at what the Orthodox understanding is. Before we do that, however, it will be helpful to look at what the Orthodox understanding of the Church does not say.
When the Orthodox Church says that it is "The Church", they are making no pronouncement upon the salvation of anyone inside or outside membership in Orthodoxy. This may be hard for Protestants to grasp since being saved and being part of The Church is practically synonymous when linked to the spiritual Church. The knowledge that not everyone, let's say, in the Baptist Churches will be saved only serves to reinforce the fact that the Baptist Church cannot say it is "The Church". Yet, they also firmly believe that there are many who will be saved, so neither can one say that any other group is "The Church."
While Orthodoxy does believe that ultimately to be saved means being in the Church and those outside the Church will not be saved, that issue is not fully decided until judgment day. Because salvation is not looked at within Orthodoxy as either an in or out position but a journey into God. We readily recognize that anyone inside or outside the Church at any particular point in time can be in the currents of salvation or not participating in it. Thus, there is no ability to point to any one person either inside or outside the visible Church and say they are saved or not saved. Whether any one particular person is going to make it to heaven we leave in God's hands. We cannot know the heart of the person, much less the disposition of God towards a particular individual short of God revealing that to us.
Orthodoxy also does not say that the visible governing body of hierarchs and the organizations that are called the Orthodox Church are in and of themselves "The Church". This is an understandable confusion because what is generally labeled as synonymous with the visible church in Protestant circles, if they have any concept of that, is the governing body, the denomination or local church. It is by becoming a member of such-and-such group that one attaches themselves with like-minded Christians and is called "a church" in a visible aspect. Therefore, when a group says it is "The Church", Protestants will tend to think that the group is claiming that their fellowship, their organization, their denomination or local church body is a one-to-one equivalent to all those names written down in the Book of Life.
.... you can read the rest of the article by CLICKING HERE.
I look forward to hearing what you believe Church to be or what it is you believe the bible says Church is. Even though we may disagree on certain points I still, no matter how much I disagree, learn something good or that gives me a fuller picture of The Truth, that is to say - Jesus Christ, Our God and Savior.
(start disclaimer)
Now, I'm not doing this to debate for or against. I think the only way we can proceed with a conversation like this without getting personal and resorting to attacks is simply to offer whichever definition of church what one might have, personally or denomination/sect-wise. So, having said that, I do hope we don't get all huffy. If you notice the feathers starting to ruffle, take a step back, breath, pray and if you think you're just gonna flip yer lid, maybe just refrain from posting at all. Love love love. Can't say it enough.
(end disclaimer)
Even if you don't read the article, I'd just like to know what it is Church means to you. What IS Church? How does denomination/Sect fit in? Is Apostolic succession no longer in play? I believe this is a really important topic and I think we should at least have a solid understanding of our doctrine in regards to Ecclesiology.
So, again, the point of the thread is not to demonize a certain denomination/sect but to meditate on and prayerfully answer the question, what IS Church?
Here's an Orthodox response to the question:
Does Orthodoxy Really Think It Is the "True Church"?
by Reader Timothy Copple
When Peter Guilquest gave a talk at our church around the beginning of 1997, he commented that the question he was most often asked was how the Orthodox Church could consider itself "The Church". Indeed, this is not only a common question among inquirers to Orthodoxy, but a critical question to understand Orthodoxy itself. If there is one subject that Protestants have the hardest time coming to grips with, it is this claim of Orthodoxy to be The Church.
Within Protestant denominations, there is a wide cross section of ideas when it comes to what the Church is. It can be summarized in two general basic views.
First, the most common understanding is that the Church in its essence is spiritual, is primarily built by adding to its numbers people who believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God as their personal savior and who have their names written in the Lamb's book of Life spoken of in Revelations. This Church is one, connected by their devotion to Jesus Christ, and will only be fully manifested as such in the last days when Jesus Christ will return for His Church. Until then, the visible manifestation of the Church on Earth is divided by differing theologies on various points, various governing bodies and groups which in and of themselves are known to not be the fullness of the Church. They are only partially the Church in as much as there are true Christians in them, in as much as their theology reflects true Biblical theology, and to the degree that God can be seen to work in and through a particular group bearing the name "Christian".
Secondly, there are some groups who bear the name "Christian", while in the minority, consider themselves to be the Church and the sole people who will be "saved" in the end. To be part of the Church and to be saved one must join their group or participate in their rituals. This is the basic antithesis to the other view that no one group can claim to be "The Church".
Within these broad categories, various groups will "draw the line" at different points, excluding some groups that others might include. It is a mixed bag and there are no hard and fast rules as to where one might find the "Church" on earth. Part of this comes from a very personalized relationship with Christ in many quarters of Protestantism, so much so that a corporate Body is a secondary, and in some cases, an unnecessary issue.
It should be evident to most Orthodox, if they readily understand this divergence, why it so goes against most Protestants to say that the Orthodox Church is the fullness of The Church. On the one hand, to say that goes against the Protestant foundation of what it means to be the Church and is usually interpreted as "you are on the outside and will not be saved unless you join our group." For the others who believe they are the Church, it is like two children saying "I'm the Church," "No, I'm the Church!"
These reactions, while understandable for one coming from a Protestant background, are reacting to Protestant understandings superimposed upon Orthodoxy, and not upon Orthodoxy's understanding of itself. So it is critical that we look at what the Orthodox understanding is. Before we do that, however, it will be helpful to look at what the Orthodox understanding of the Church does not say.
When the Orthodox Church says that it is "The Church", they are making no pronouncement upon the salvation of anyone inside or outside membership in Orthodoxy. This may be hard for Protestants to grasp since being saved and being part of The Church is practically synonymous when linked to the spiritual Church. The knowledge that not everyone, let's say, in the Baptist Churches will be saved only serves to reinforce the fact that the Baptist Church cannot say it is "The Church". Yet, they also firmly believe that there are many who will be saved, so neither can one say that any other group is "The Church."
While Orthodoxy does believe that ultimately to be saved means being in the Church and those outside the Church will not be saved, that issue is not fully decided until judgment day. Because salvation is not looked at within Orthodoxy as either an in or out position but a journey into God. We readily recognize that anyone inside or outside the Church at any particular point in time can be in the currents of salvation or not participating in it. Thus, there is no ability to point to any one person either inside or outside the visible Church and say they are saved or not saved. Whether any one particular person is going to make it to heaven we leave in God's hands. We cannot know the heart of the person, much less the disposition of God towards a particular individual short of God revealing that to us.
Orthodoxy also does not say that the visible governing body of hierarchs and the organizations that are called the Orthodox Church are in and of themselves "The Church". This is an understandable confusion because what is generally labeled as synonymous with the visible church in Protestant circles, if they have any concept of that, is the governing body, the denomination or local church. It is by becoming a member of such-and-such group that one attaches themselves with like-minded Christians and is called "a church" in a visible aspect. Therefore, when a group says it is "The Church", Protestants will tend to think that the group is claiming that their fellowship, their organization, their denomination or local church body is a one-to-one equivalent to all those names written down in the Book of Life.
.... you can read the rest of the article by CLICKING HERE.
I look forward to hearing what you believe Church to be or what it is you believe the bible says Church is. Even though we may disagree on certain points I still, no matter how much I disagree, learn something good or that gives me a fuller picture of The Truth, that is to say - Jesus Christ, Our God and Savior.