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D
If he was seminary-trained-reformed, he certainly did know what to say. He just knew when to say it and when to not.
No used talking to someone who won't listen.
(BTW, I'm not seminary-trained, yet reformed, and still believe in laying on of hands. A bit different then what you were originally talking about. No miracles involved when you first started talking dripping oil on people.)
No used talking to someone who won't listen.
(BTW, I'm not seminary-trained, yet reformed, and still believe in laying on of hands. A bit different then what you were originally talking about. No miracles involved when you first started talking dripping oil on people.)
The English word anoint’ is NOT a biblical word; it is a word that is used by scholars and editors of books and periodicals to express a wide spectrum of concepts, most of which have absolutely nothing to do with the Bible. In its earliest known usages, it meant “to rub over with oil or an oily substance” and so it was adapted to translate the Hebrew words סוּךְ and מָשַׁח in the Old Testament, and adapted to translate the Greek words ἀλείφω, γκρίω, and χρίσμα in the New Testament. The Greek word χρίσμα is used figuratively in 1 Jn 2:27,
27. As for you, the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and so you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, abide in him. (NRSV)
In this verse, the Greek word χρίσμα is used in reference to the anointing with the Holy Spirit. (See page 1090 in the BDAG lexicon). Obviously, rubbing people with oil does not teach them about all things, but the anointing, the endowment, of the Holy Spirit does!
27. As for you, the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and so you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, abide in him. (NRSV)
In this verse, the Greek word χρίσμα is used in reference to the anointing with the Holy Spirit. (See page 1090 in the BDAG lexicon). Obviously, rubbing people with oil does not teach them about all things, but the anointing, the endowment, of the Holy Spirit does!
D
If we take your argument out to the logical conclusion, you have no argument. And you have no argument, because all English words we used weren't originally English words.
So, the word "anoint" is a biblical word. It's that we translated the original biblical word into English and it became... ta-dah! "Anoint."
And, yes, anoint doesn't always have to reference the Bible, however, this is BDF, which stands for Bible Discussion Forum, which means, by its very nature we're talking biblically. So, why not use biblical words expressed biblically? For instance -- "anoint," which means "a little dab'll do ya." (How I translated it to mid 20th century American. lol)
And, honestly? Bringing this back to OP, aren't we all supposed to be assuming we're talking pastors who have been set apart by God? Are you hanging out in a church full of people who don't particularly even believe in God? Or a church where people are being fed scripture?
As the OP, I really did assume we would be talking "real pastor's" "real salaries." Never dawned on me, anyone would be talking fake pastors given the audience on this site. So, of course they're going with what the Holy Spirit has given them. What else would they go for? A study on the problems with the Philadelphia Eagles defense?
So, the word "anoint" is a biblical word. It's that we translated the original biblical word into English and it became... ta-dah! "Anoint."
And, yes, anoint doesn't always have to reference the Bible, however, this is BDF, which stands for Bible Discussion Forum, which means, by its very nature we're talking biblically. So, why not use biblical words expressed biblically? For instance -- "anoint," which means "a little dab'll do ya." (How I translated it to mid 20th century American. lol)
And, honestly? Bringing this back to OP, aren't we all supposed to be assuming we're talking pastors who have been set apart by God? Are you hanging out in a church full of people who don't particularly even believe in God? Or a church where people are being fed scripture?
As the OP, I really did assume we would be talking "real pastor's" "real salaries." Never dawned on me, anyone would be talking fake pastors given the audience on this site. So, of course they're going with what the Holy Spirit has given them. What else would they go for? A study on the problems with the Philadelphia Eagles defense?
I think we're all aware the Bible was written in Greek and Hebrew.
But we all speak English around here.
Yet when we use English to speak and teach the Bible, some people play a bit fast and loose with both the English AND the Greek.
So if we're going to use English, let's try to use it carefully when dealing with scripture.
Some people throw the English word "anointed" around pretty flippantly, using it to mean all kinds of things it doesn't mean in the Bible.
So lets talk about that... how is the word "anointed" used in the Bible?
"Anoint" translated from words meaning "to rub", generally refers to being "set apart".
There are about 4 Greek words commonly translated into English as "anoint."
They all mean literally "to rub", and they usually, almost in every case, show a person has been "set apart" for God.
That is how all words translated as "anoint" are almost always used.
Virtually every time we see one of these words meaning "to rub" translated as "anoint", it is showing someone is "set apart".
Christians are ALL "set apart" in this way.
Not just some of us, but ALL of us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Chrisma :
There is one uncommon NT Greek word translated as anoint, which only shows up in 2 verses, which means something SLIGHTLY different.
Chrisma is the word, and like the other words translated "anoint", it also literally means "to rub" or "smear".
The only difference is that this word, in these 2 verses, DOES refer to the Holy Spirit within a New Testament Christian.
(1John 2:20,27)
These are the only 2 instances where a Greek word is (normally) translated as "anoint" in English WHEREIN it is specifically referring to the Holy Spirit within a New Testament Christian.
But we have a problem... the word "chrisma" when referring to the Holy Spirit, STILL DOES NOT MEAN WHAT MANY PEOPLE CLAIM:
This word "chrisma" does NOT refer to the holy spirit coming and going,
and it does NOT refer to the Holy Spirit only coming on special people,
and it does NOT refer to the Holy Spirit giving special super powers to special super people.
The word "chrisma" CLEARLY REFERS TO THE HOLY SPIRIT BEING IN ALL BELIEVERS, and STAYING in ALL BELIEVERS.
(1John 2:27)
It doesn't come on some and not others, and it doesn't give some super powers.
Chrisma just refers to the Holy Spirit coming into ALL believers.
It isn't some special super power that only a few people get.
Is there more evidence this word "chrisma", translated as "anoint", refers to ALL BELIEVERS?
Yes.
This word has the same root as "Christ".
Christ is "anointed", or the "anointed one".
And Christians, because we are IN CHRIST, we ALL PARTICIPATE IN HIS ANOINTING, by virtue of being IN HIM.
This anointing doesn't refer to only SOME Christians, it refers to ALL Christians.
All Christians participate in the same "anointing" by virtue of being in the "anointed one"
Conclusion:
1. So, most Greek words translated as "anoint" simple mean "to rub", and are used to show someone is "set apart for God"... not that he has any super powers. And the Bible clearly says ALL CHRISTIANS are anointed in the sense of being "set apart".
This is referring to ALL OF US.
(2Co 1:21-22).
2. There is an uncommon NT Greek word translated as "anoint" which also means "to rub", but this word actually DOES refer to the Holy Spirit, but it refers to the Holy Spirit being in EVERY CHRISTIAN, not just some, and it doesn't refer to select people getting super powers.
Again, this is referring to ALL OF US.
(1Jn 2:27)
3. Whether you're using English, or going back to the Greek, this word we translate as "anoint" doesn't mean what many people claim it means.
But we all speak English around here.
Yet when we use English to speak and teach the Bible, some people play a bit fast and loose with both the English AND the Greek.
So if we're going to use English, let's try to use it carefully when dealing with scripture.
Some people throw the English word "anointed" around pretty flippantly, using it to mean all kinds of things it doesn't mean in the Bible.
So lets talk about that... how is the word "anointed" used in the Bible?
"Anoint" translated from words meaning "to rub", generally refers to being "set apart".
There are about 4 Greek words commonly translated into English as "anoint."
They all mean literally "to rub", and they usually, almost in every case, show a person has been "set apart" for God.
That is how all words translated as "anoint" are almost always used.
Virtually every time we see one of these words meaning "to rub" translated as "anoint", it is showing someone is "set apart".
Christians are ALL "set apart" in this way.
Not just some of us, but ALL of us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Chrisma :
There is one uncommon NT Greek word translated as anoint, which only shows up in 2 verses, which means something SLIGHTLY different.
Chrisma is the word, and like the other words translated "anoint", it also literally means "to rub" or "smear".
The only difference is that this word, in these 2 verses, DOES refer to the Holy Spirit within a New Testament Christian.
(1John 2:20,27)
These are the only 2 instances where a Greek word is (normally) translated as "anoint" in English WHEREIN it is specifically referring to the Holy Spirit within a New Testament Christian.
But we have a problem... the word "chrisma" when referring to the Holy Spirit, STILL DOES NOT MEAN WHAT MANY PEOPLE CLAIM:
This word "chrisma" does NOT refer to the holy spirit coming and going,
and it does NOT refer to the Holy Spirit only coming on special people,
and it does NOT refer to the Holy Spirit giving special super powers to special super people.
The word "chrisma" CLEARLY REFERS TO THE HOLY SPIRIT BEING IN ALL BELIEVERS, and STAYING in ALL BELIEVERS.
(1John 2:27)
It doesn't come on some and not others, and it doesn't give some super powers.
Chrisma just refers to the Holy Spirit coming into ALL believers.
It isn't some special super power that only a few people get.
Is there more evidence this word "chrisma", translated as "anoint", refers to ALL BELIEVERS?
Yes.
This word has the same root as "Christ".
Christ is "anointed", or the "anointed one".
And Christians, because we are IN CHRIST, we ALL PARTICIPATE IN HIS ANOINTING, by virtue of being IN HIM.
This anointing doesn't refer to only SOME Christians, it refers to ALL Christians.
All Christians participate in the same "anointing" by virtue of being in the "anointed one"
Conclusion:
1. So, most Greek words translated as "anoint" simple mean "to rub", and are used to show someone is "set apart for God"... not that he has any super powers. And the Bible clearly says ALL CHRISTIANS are anointed in the sense of being "set apart".
This is referring to ALL OF US.
(2Co 1:21-22).
2. There is an uncommon NT Greek word translated as "anoint" which also means "to rub", but this word actually DOES refer to the Holy Spirit, but it refers to the Holy Spirit being in EVERY CHRISTIAN, not just some, and it doesn't refer to select people getting super powers.
Again, this is referring to ALL OF US.
(1Jn 2:27)
3. Whether you're using English, or going back to the Greek, this word we translate as "anoint" doesn't mean what many people claim it means.
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I did not make an argument—I posted objective, factual information that refuted an argument made by someone else.
The word ‘man’ occurs 2,104 times in the 2011 edition of the English Standard Version of the Bible. Does that make it a super Bible word? Of course not. Just because an English word is used in the Bible does not make it a Bible word. Moreover, how an English word is used in the Bible does not govern the use or meaning of it in other literature. Therefore, to refer to a pastor as having been anointed by God, or saying that a pastor’s sermon or the delivery of it was anointed by God is perfectly good English that is very easy for most English-speaking adults to understand.
The word ‘man’ occurs 2,104 times in the 2011 edition of the English Standard Version of the Bible. Does that make it a super Bible word? Of course not. Just because an English word is used in the Bible does not make it a Bible word. Moreover, how an English word is used in the Bible does not govern the use or meaning of it in other literature. Therefore, to refer to a pastor as having been anointed by God, or saying that a pastor’s sermon or the delivery of it was anointed by God is perfectly good English that is very easy for most English-speaking adults to understand.
Yes, I agree that you do that in your posts.
How an English word is used in the Bible does not govern the use or meaning of it in other literature—including discussions regarding the proper salary for a pastor.
That is not true. The word ‘anoint’ is used only four times in the ESV,
Mat. 6:17. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face,
Mark 16:1. When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.
Luke 7:46. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment.
Rev. 3:18. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.
In NONE of these four verse do we find the concept of someone being set apart!
The word ‘anointing’ is used only three times in the ESV,
James 5:14. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
1 John 2:27. But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
In NONE of these three occurrences do we find the concept of someone being set apart!
The word ‘anointing’ is used only fifteen times in the ESV,
Mark 6:13. And they cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick and healed them.
Mark 14:8. She has done what she could; she has anointed my body beforehand for burial.
*Luke 4:18. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
Luke 7:38. and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head and kissed his feet and anointed them with the ointment.
Luke 7:46. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment.
John 9:6. Having said these things, he spit on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man's eyes with the mud
John 9:11. He answered, "The man called Jesus made mud and anointed my eyes and said to me, 'Go to Siloam and wash.' So I went and washed and received my sight."
John 11:2. It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill.
John 12:3. Mary therefore took a pound of expensive ointment made from pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.
*Acts 4:26. The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed'—
*Acts 4:27. for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Acts 10:38. how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
*2 Cor. 1:21. And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us,
Heb.1:9. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
*1 John 2:20. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
In only five of these fifteen occurrences (in the verses marked with an asterisk) do we possibly find the concept of someone being set apart!
The ‘meaning’ of all words is determined by how they are used—especially by educated writers and editors. On page 279 of the first edition of Herman Melville’s Moby Dick we find Melville writing,
To make them run easily and swiftly, the axles of carriages are anointed; and for much the same purpose, some whalers perform an analogous operation upon their boat; they grease the bottom. Nor is it to be doubted that as such a procedure can do no harm, it may possibly be of no contemptible advantage; considering that oil and water are hostile; that oil is a sliding thing, and that the object in view is to make the boat slide bravely. Queequeg believed strongly in anointing his boat, ….”
George Elliot, on page 29 of his book, Silas Marner, writes, “which extravagant habits and bad husbandry were plentifully anointing their wheels. I am speaking now in relation to Raveloe and the parishes that resembled it; for our old-fashioned country life had many different aspects, as all life must have when it is spread over a various surface, and breathed on ….”
How an English word is used in the Bible does not govern the use or meaning of it in other literature—including discussions regarding the proper salary for a pastor.
That is not true. The word ‘anoint’ is used only four times in the ESV,
Mat. 6:17. But when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face,
Mark 16:1. When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him.
Luke 7:46. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment.
Rev. 3:18. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see.
In NONE of these four verse do we find the concept of someone being set apart!
The word ‘anointing’ is used only three times in the ESV,
James 5:14. Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
1 John 2:27. But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
In NONE of these three occurrences do we find the concept of someone being set apart!
The word ‘anointing’ is used only fifteen times in the ESV,
Mark 6:13. And they cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick and healed them.
Mark 14:8. She has done what she could; she has anointed my body beforehand for burial.
*Luke 4:18. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
Luke 7:38. and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head and kissed his feet and anointed them with the ointment.
Luke 7:46. You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment.
John 9:6. Having said these things, he spit on the ground and made mud with the saliva. Then he anointed the man's eyes with the mud
John 9:11. He answered, "The man called Jesus made mud and anointed my eyes and said to me, 'Go to Siloam and wash.' So I went and washed and received my sight."
John 11:2. It was Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was ill.
John 12:3. Mary therefore took a pound of expensive ointment made from pure nard, and anointed the feet of Jesus and wiped his feet with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.
*Acts 4:26. The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed'—
*Acts 4:27. for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Acts 10:38. how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
*2 Cor. 1:21. And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us,
Heb.1:9. You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
*1 John 2:20. But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge.
In only five of these fifteen occurrences (in the verses marked with an asterisk) do we possibly find the concept of someone being set apart!
The ‘meaning’ of all words is determined by how they are used—especially by educated writers and editors. On page 279 of the first edition of Herman Melville’s Moby Dick we find Melville writing,
To make them run easily and swiftly, the axles of carriages are anointed; and for much the same purpose, some whalers perform an analogous operation upon their boat; they grease the bottom. Nor is it to be doubted that as such a procedure can do no harm, it may possibly be of no contemptible advantage; considering that oil and water are hostile; that oil is a sliding thing, and that the object in view is to make the boat slide bravely. Queequeg believed strongly in anointing his boat, ….”
George Elliot, on page 29 of his book, Silas Marner, writes, “which extravagant habits and bad husbandry were plentifully anointing their wheels. I am speaking now in relation to Raveloe and the parishes that resembled it; for our old-fashioned country life had many different aspects, as all life must have when it is spread over a various surface, and breathed on ….”
R
Me too. Just as I have met many more who were not, but ended up in pastoral ministry anyway where they did not belong. Their sermons were boring and lacked insight and depth of revelation. Often their sermons amounted to nothing more than them reading the Bible to you. It's hard to make the sacrifice to pay them double or triple the minimum wage or more here in the United States for that quality of ministry service. That's why we wrangle on how much to pay them. It's a sacrifice made not so cheerfully.
It's hard for me to say all these things because I know from observation that the pastorate is difficult enough all by itself and to be ill equipped spiritually to be doing that task, because they are not called to do that task, just makes it all the more difficult for these decent, well intentioned men, who have families to raise too, to make a living. I've prayed for more than one pastor that I could see was caught in that kind of situation. It hurts to see it. And it hurts to support it. And people support them out of pity. Which is not good motivation to pay a pastor. Not over the long run, anyway. These words hurt even as I'm typing them. I know I'm talking about real men with real families and real needs. But we need to face the truth about this.
It's hard for me to say all these things because I know from observation that the pastorate is difficult enough all by itself and to be ill equipped spiritually to be doing that task, because they are not called to do that task, just makes it all the more difficult for these decent, well intentioned men, who have families to raise too, to make a living. I've prayed for more than one pastor that I could see was caught in that kind of situation. It hurts to see it. And it hurts to support it. And people support them out of pity. Which is not good motivation to pay a pastor. Not over the long run, anyway. These words hurt even as I'm typing them. I know I'm talking about real men with real families and real needs. But we need to face the truth about this.
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R
This just isn't true. We don't all have the same anointing in regard to our gifts. Romans 12:3-8 talks about how we differ not only in the particular gift(s) each of us has, but also in the amount of faith God has given us to function in our gifts. Great faith obviously equates to a greater and more effective work.
I'm not a Paul or a Timothy. I don't have the same anointing for building up the Temple of God, the body of Christ, that they had. I'm not to think more highly of myself than I should and think I can go to school and land a gig in a church somewhere and expect the congregation to pay me double or triple or quadruple the minimum wage. But that is exactly the burden that gets imposed on the churches here in the US.
I'm basing everything I'm saying largely off of how people were anointed for service in the OT and how God moved the hearts of the people to support the building of the Temple of God under Moses, coupled with the NT passages that speak of the gifts of the Spirit for the task of building up the Temple of God, the body of Christ.
I don't have the time to post the details, but for those who are interested, read Exodus 25:1-9,Exodus 31:1-6, and Exodus 35:30-35 to 36:1-7. God chose Bezalel and Oholiab, skilled craftsmen in the materials of the temple, filled with the Holy Spirit, to do the work of building it and teaching others how to do it. And God paid for it by letting the people give free will offerings as their hearts were moved to do so. It's the template for how we are to build and pay for the building of the Temple of God, the church, the body of Christ in this New Covenant. But we seem to have left out the part about the anointing of the Holy Spirit and the freewill offering part of that template.
You can reject the idea of the anointing if you want. But it's clear that we all don't share alike the anointing of the Holy Spirit that Bezalel and Oholiab had for the purpose of building up the building of God. That's the part that's missing. Put that piece back into the plan and the 'more than enough' free will offering part will follow.
I'm not a Paul or a Timothy. I don't have the same anointing for building up the Temple of God, the body of Christ, that they had. I'm not to think more highly of myself than I should and think I can go to school and land a gig in a church somewhere and expect the congregation to pay me double or triple or quadruple the minimum wage. But that is exactly the burden that gets imposed on the churches here in the US.
I'm basing everything I'm saying largely off of how people were anointed for service in the OT and how God moved the hearts of the people to support the building of the Temple of God under Moses, coupled with the NT passages that speak of the gifts of the Spirit for the task of building up the Temple of God, the body of Christ.
I don't have the time to post the details, but for those who are interested, read Exodus 25:1-9,Exodus 31:1-6, and Exodus 35:30-35 to 36:1-7. God chose Bezalel and Oholiab, skilled craftsmen in the materials of the temple, filled with the Holy Spirit, to do the work of building it and teaching others how to do it. And God paid for it by letting the people give free will offerings as their hearts were moved to do so. It's the template for how we are to build and pay for the building of the Temple of God, the church, the body of Christ in this New Covenant. But we seem to have left out the part about the anointing of the Holy Spirit and the freewill offering part of that template.
You can reject the idea of the anointing if you want. But it's clear that we all don't share alike the anointing of the Holy Spirit that Bezalel and Oholiab had for the purpose of building up the building of God. That's the part that's missing. Put that piece back into the plan and the 'more than enough' free will offering part will follow.
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