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How do you get free will if you're already written or not written in the book of life regarding your level of good deed and salvational status on the back of a life you've yet to even live out in entirety?
Here's a better question: If God says all men have free will, and you believe in God, then isn't inferring that Cycel doesn't have free will a stark contradiction to your professed beliefs? If all men have free will, they have it regardless of whether they are evolutionist or creationist.
Do all men have free will, Laurich, or do they not?
Here's a better question: If God says all men have free will, and you believe in God, then isn't inferring that Cycel doesn't have free will a stark contradiction to your professed beliefs? If all men have free will, they have it regardless of whether they are evolutionist or creationist.
Do all men have free will, Laurich, or do they not?
I think T_Laurich is attempting to attack evolution through the back door. He does believe we atheists have free will, he just won't say so. I also asked him whether he believes that he has free will. Again he has not answered.
My hypothesis is this: T_Laurich believes God has created free will in all humans. He thinks evolution cannot create free will and this is why he asked, "How do you get free will if you are just programmed chemical reactions?" He wants to try and bring atheists to the conclusion that evolution cannot produce free will.
You asked him: "Do all men have free will, Laurich, or do they not?"
I asked him: "Do you believe (Laurich) you possess free will?" We will see if he answers this time.
My hypothesis is this: T_Laurich believes God has created free will in all humans. He thinks evolution cannot create free will and this is why he asked, "How do you get free will if you are just programmed chemical reactions?" He wants to try and bring atheists to the conclusion that evolution cannot produce free will.
You asked him: "Do all men have free will, Laurich, or do they not?"
I asked him: "Do you believe (Laurich) you possess free will?" We will see if he answers this time.
Human beings have free will for which we are responsible to God for the right use of their free will. However, the leopard cannot change its spots nor the Ethiopian his dark skin based on free will. Neither can a human heart that is inclined toward doubt and un-belief come to saving faith unless God, in Sovereign discretion, grants saving grace.
The first sin in the Garden of Eden was doubt and dis-belief and un-justified lack of faith in God.
Human beings have free will and a limited set of abilities. For restoring right relationship and legal innocence with our Creator, we became dependent upon a promised Messiah and Savior who turned out to be Jesus Christ, crucified as an atoning sacrifice to accomplish what repeated animal sacrifices of sheep could never do. In order to change the limited ability of a human person to believe in their heart with saving Grace, God must give justifying and sanctifying grace. God is glorified in man's dependence upon God. God retains Sovereign discretion to grant saving grace and pardon and mercy. Even saving faith is a gift from God. We "cannot push God's button" and invoke some universal law that requires God to act but we can pray and plead and beseech God to act. This has been called "Seeking God".
The first sin in the Garden of Eden was doubt and dis-belief and un-justified lack of faith in God.
Human beings have free will and a limited set of abilities. For restoring right relationship and legal innocence with our Creator, we became dependent upon a promised Messiah and Savior who turned out to be Jesus Christ, crucified as an atoning sacrifice to accomplish what repeated animal sacrifices of sheep could never do. In order to change the limited ability of a human person to believe in their heart with saving Grace, God must give justifying and sanctifying grace. God is glorified in man's dependence upon God. God retains Sovereign discretion to grant saving grace and pardon and mercy. Even saving faith is a gift from God. We "cannot push God's button" and invoke some universal law that requires God to act but we can pray and plead and beseech God to act. This has been called "Seeking God".
You did not address the question I posed. I asked, "Do you believe we were created in the physical image of Jesus?
The painting Damombomb posted depicts Jesus in his physical body creating Adam as a near physical representation of himself. So, when scripture says we were created in his likeness, then do you believe we were created in his physical likeness? I would say that his is what Damombomb's post implies.
Oh, also note that the posture of Jesus' hand when creating Adam, in the painting, is the same as Yoda's when he raised Luke's X-Wing flier from the mud of the swamp.
Is this a coincidence or is one artist imitating another?
The painting Damombomb posted depicts Jesus in his physical body creating Adam as a near physical representation of himself. So, when scripture says we were created in his likeness, then do you believe we were created in his physical likeness? I would say that his is what Damombomb's post implies.
Oh, also note that the posture of Jesus' hand when creating Adam, in the painting, is the same as Yoda's when he raised Luke's X-Wing flier from the mud of the swamp.
Is this a coincidence or is one artist imitating another?
First, Jesus prayed to His Heavenly Father. John 17 records Jesus’ great prayer to the Father shortly before He went to the cross. He begins:
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Thy Son, that the Son may glorify Thee, even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life. And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.” [v.1–3]
Much later, ET phoned home.
E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Thy Son, that the Son may glorify Thee, even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life. And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.” [v.1–3]
Much later, ET phoned home.
E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
First, Jesus prayed to His Heavenly Father. John 17 records Jesus’ great prayer to the Father shortly before He went to the cross. He begins:
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Thy Son, that the Son may glorify Thee, even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life. And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.” [v.1–3]
Much later, ET phoned home.
View attachment 93563
E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
“Father, the hour has come; glorify Thy Son, that the Son may glorify Thee, even as Thou gavest Him authority over all mankind, that to all whom Thou hast given Him, He may give eternal life. And this is eternal life, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.” [v.1–3]
Much later, ET phoned home.
View attachment 93563
E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
S
The question should not be why do atheists bother, rather why do you Christians bother? Why do they bother in the questioning of why atheists believe what they believe? It really doesn't matter. As a Christian I know the truth, and my experience in God is very real so the opinions and ideas of anything contrary to the truth really doesn't matter to me. I might speak with an atheist at times to show them the truth, but that is not always the case. Many are stubborn in their ways and aren't willing to listen. I would rather witness to those who are hungry and seeking out to know about God. Debating with atheists in my opinion is a waste of time. I am speaking about those atheist who refuse to listen.
Thanks for your answers, Leanaix and Cycle... A lot of posts have gone by since I was on here last night, so I'm going to try to go through them one by one... I love this kind of discussion!
"I don't know why I wouldn't be able to act without any constraint."
I take the 'constraint' in T's definition to mean the constraints that apply everywhere in the universe... Science works because the universe operates in an orderly fashion... heat water, it begins to boil... always, everytime... the water is constrained to boil, it cannot act otherwise...
"I weigh factors, I analyze consequences of wither decisions."
Yes, and the physical processes in your brain the analyzing and weighing, are constrained by the same rules that constrain everything else in the universe, wouldn't you agree?
"I am not just a circuit with an on off switch."
Very true, you are much more complex. Now, the same Ohm's Law that governs the flow of electricity in the circuit also governs (constrains) the flow of electricity in your brain, yes?
"Yes, decisions are made by the brain, but people can even choose to influence their brain. That's the whole point of meditation."
Well, the 'people' (or 'you') that influences their brain is, well, that same brain, isn't it?
"I think the question would be easier to answer if I knew why you object to free will on a pragmatic level."
I understand your post was addressed to T_Laurich, so I hope you don't mind my answering also; I see us as all taking part in the same discussion... My objection to free will is that nothing in the universe can produce it, nothing known... I'm taking a scientific look at this... only admitting evidence based on observation and experimentation...
I got the impression that you didn't want to talk about stuff with the word 'quantum' attatched to it, which is fine with me because in my experience it just clouds the issue and makes it more difficult to talk about... so, we're left with a deterministic universe... such a universe can in no way produce free will, everything in it (including our brains) being determined (constrained) by a previous state...
"I don't know why I wouldn't be able to act without any constraint."
I take the 'constraint' in T's definition to mean the constraints that apply everywhere in the universe... Science works because the universe operates in an orderly fashion... heat water, it begins to boil... always, everytime... the water is constrained to boil, it cannot act otherwise...
"I weigh factors, I analyze consequences of wither decisions."
Yes, and the physical processes in your brain the analyzing and weighing, are constrained by the same rules that constrain everything else in the universe, wouldn't you agree?
"I am not just a circuit with an on off switch."
Very true, you are much more complex. Now, the same Ohm's Law that governs the flow of electricity in the circuit also governs (constrains) the flow of electricity in your brain, yes?
"Yes, decisions are made by the brain, but people can even choose to influence their brain. That's the whole point of meditation."
Well, the 'people' (or 'you') that influences their brain is, well, that same brain, isn't it?
"I think the question would be easier to answer if I knew why you object to free will on a pragmatic level."
I understand your post was addressed to T_Laurich, so I hope you don't mind my answering also; I see us as all taking part in the same discussion... My objection to free will is that nothing in the universe can produce it, nothing known... I'm taking a scientific look at this... only admitting evidence based on observation and experimentation...
I got the impression that you didn't want to talk about stuff with the word 'quantum' attatched to it, which is fine with me because in my experience it just clouds the issue and makes it more difficult to talk about... so, we're left with a deterministic universe... such a universe can in no way produce free will, everything in it (including our brains) being determined (constrained) by a previous state...
I am an atheist and I agree with the sentiment of that atheist sign, but I do wondered if it achieves anything. I celebrate Christmas, but not as a Christian. I do Christmas dinner with family and exchange presents. I play secular Christmas music and traditional carols, but I don't believe Jesus was born on the 25th of December. I do believe the 25th was originally a pagan celebration co-opted by Christians. I have every intention of continuing to celebrating my secular Christmas.
The sign is not opposing Christmas. It’s a declaration by the little girl on the poster that she does not want to go to church. Do you notice that she is following the secular tradition of writing to Santa? I see the campaign as promoting a secular Christmas.
The sign is not opposing Christmas. It’s a declaration by the little girl on the poster that she does not want to go to church. Do you notice that she is following the secular tradition of writing to Santa? I see the campaign as promoting a secular Christmas.
[TABLE="class: grid, width: 500, align: left"]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus Christ came to earth from heaven and dwelled among humanity.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. came to earth from the heavens and dwelled among humanity.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus did many amazing and powerful miracles.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. did many amazing and powerful miracles.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus healed people including by the means of healing by touch.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. touched and healed.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus died and was buried.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. was grievously ill and put into a hospital tent.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus was raised from the dead by mighty power of God.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. was raised from his sick bed by the mighty power of science.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus will come again.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. will come again.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus loved the little children.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. loved the children.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus prayed to the Father in heaven.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. "phoned home" to people and places in the heavens.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
It has been approximately thirty years since I watched it but this is how I remember the parallels.
View attachment 93563
[TR]
[TD]Jesus Christ came to earth from heaven and dwelled among humanity.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. came to earth from the heavens and dwelled among humanity.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus did many amazing and powerful miracles.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. did many amazing and powerful miracles.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus healed people including by the means of healing by touch.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. touched and healed.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus died and was buried.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. was grievously ill and put into a hospital tent.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus was raised from the dead by mighty power of God.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. was raised from his sick bed by the mighty power of science.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus will come again.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. will come again.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus loved the little children.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. loved the children.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Jesus prayed to the Father in heaven.[/TD]
[TD]E.T. "phoned home" to people and places in the heavens.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
It has been approximately thirty years since I watched it but this is how I remember the parallels.
View attachment 93563
I don't believe Jesus existed until he was birthed by his mother Mary. I believe that the author of the Gospel of John wants you to believe that Jesus was pre-existant but I don't think the Old Testament supports this, and I suspect the synoptic gospels have nothing to say about it either. I do think Christians interpret scripture in the light of John. At least that is what I have read.
Does a real ET exist? I am sure of it. The universe seems too big for our world to be the only one where life has evolved. Life exists here so it probably exists elsewhere. This is why it would be so valuable for us to learn whether life does exist, or has existed, on any other planet in our solar system. A positive find of life, or even past life, on Mars or one of the other planets would help us formulate hypotheses about life beyond the solar system.
Does a real ET exist? I am sure of it. The universe seems too big for our world to be the only one where life has evolved. Life exists here so it probably exists elsewhere. This is why it would be so valuable for us to learn whether life does exist, or has existed, on any other planet in our solar system. A positive find of life, or even past life, on Mars or one of the other planets would help us formulate hypotheses about life beyond the solar system.
[As I wrote, I'm going through the posts one by one... I don't know yet if anyone has responded to the post I wrote a few minutes ago]
"Your brain is different in many ways. Can a light switch tell itself to turn on? No, but a person who is feeling down in the dumps can make the decision to find something to cheer themselves up."
Yes, your brain is much more complex. Now, we can add a sensor to the light switch analogy, allowing it to turn itself on... Many streetlights today work that way... So, the 'decision' to cheer themselves up... was that produced by something in the brain that is different from how things work in the universe?
"We have fields of study dedicated to development and how certain things affect the brain. The brain can will itself to change itself more or less."
Yes, well... the question is not 'does the brain affect itself'... clearly it does, just like your car affects itself... the heat produced by the engine as your car 'warms up' alerts the cooling system to make the 'decision' to allow water to flow through the radiator... Your brain is much more complex, we all agree with that... but the processes (the same processes found throughout the universe) are the same, aren't they?
"And it all happens on a level more complex than I can honestly say I understand."
Me, too... so let's talk about it on a level we can understand... the stuff that happens in your brain, it's the same kind of stuff that happens everywhere else, isn't it? I mean (and I don't think for a moment you're going to agree with this), your brain isn't using magic, is it? So, the same physical processes and rules we see everywhere else are what your brain uses, yes?
"A human in a room all by itself can go through all kinds of thoughts, make all kinds of decisions, etc. without any outside influence."
A lightbulb with a timer can do the same thing... again, your brain is a lot more complex, do its 'decisions' will look more interesting...
"Your brain is different in many ways. Can a light switch tell itself to turn on? No, but a person who is feeling down in the dumps can make the decision to find something to cheer themselves up."
Yes, your brain is much more complex. Now, we can add a sensor to the light switch analogy, allowing it to turn itself on... Many streetlights today work that way... So, the 'decision' to cheer themselves up... was that produced by something in the brain that is different from how things work in the universe?
"We have fields of study dedicated to development and how certain things affect the brain. The brain can will itself to change itself more or less."
Yes, well... the question is not 'does the brain affect itself'... clearly it does, just like your car affects itself... the heat produced by the engine as your car 'warms up' alerts the cooling system to make the 'decision' to allow water to flow through the radiator... Your brain is much more complex, we all agree with that... but the processes (the same processes found throughout the universe) are the same, aren't they?
"And it all happens on a level more complex than I can honestly say I understand."
Me, too... so let's talk about it on a level we can understand... the stuff that happens in your brain, it's the same kind of stuff that happens everywhere else, isn't it? I mean (and I don't think for a moment you're going to agree with this), your brain isn't using magic, is it? So, the same physical processes and rules we see everywhere else are what your brain uses, yes?
"A human in a room all by itself can go through all kinds of thoughts, make all kinds of decisions, etc. without any outside influence."
A lightbulb with a timer can do the same thing... again, your brain is a lot more complex, do its 'decisions' will look more interesting...
"I have no reason to think we don't have free will."
Well, you agree that in science, we have rules and laws about how the universe operates... it's these rules and laws that would make free will impossible.
"My brain is my own and I make my own decisions and my decision making comes exclusively from my brain."
I understand that's what you assert... and I don't doubt that you're having an interior sensation... to deal with this scientifically, we need evidence...
"That we have evolved this way makes perfect sense. "
I think evolution is involved in the sense that it assumes an orderly universe.
"Sorry T_Laurich, I don't see that you have a case with any substance. "
I understand you don't see his case... I think, if you'll stick around, at some point you'll have an 'Oh, I get it' moment.
Well, you agree that in science, we have rules and laws about how the universe operates... it's these rules and laws that would make free will impossible.
"My brain is my own and I make my own decisions and my decision making comes exclusively from my brain."
I understand that's what you assert... and I don't doubt that you're having an interior sensation... to deal with this scientifically, we need evidence...
"That we have evolved this way makes perfect sense. "
I think evolution is involved in the sense that it assumes an orderly universe.
"Sorry T_Laurich, I don't see that you have a case with any substance. "
I understand you don't see his case... I think, if you'll stick around, at some point you'll have an 'Oh, I get it' moment.
We don't know with absolute certainty. Thats the point of the pragmatism aspect I mentioned. We deal with reality as it is. As it is, we seem to make our own choices and have the ability to actually choose either way. If it is some illusion, there is absolutely no reason to suspect it. If the possibility bothers you, you must certainly be bothered by every possibilty. And everything is possible unless proven impossible by a contradiction. There is no reason the universe creating me would change the fact that my brain is the way it is.
[I understand was a post to T_Laurich, I hope you don't mind if I answer, too]
"How do you know you are not hooked-up to the Matrix and the world you think you experience is not simply a sophisticated program?"
In the larger sense, we don't... but at this time, I'm attempting to deal with the issue scientifically, using evidence from observation...
"Prove to me that you really do possess free will..."
My position is that I cannot prove that.
"You believe you have free will."
Good! Now, let's talk about that word 'believe'... I think it has three basic usages:
I believe Thatcher was PM of Britain... this is something about which I am unsure, but that could be checked.
I believe it's going to rain...
this is a kind of expectation, probability...
I believe there are spirits... this is something that can't be checked using the scientific method... it is a statement based on faith, I would say...
When I say I believe I (we) have free will, it's that third kind of belief, faith...
"...you doubt I have free will..."
Myself, I doubt that you can demonstrate it using the scientific method...
Looking forward to your reply!
"How do you know you are not hooked-up to the Matrix and the world you think you experience is not simply a sophisticated program?"
In the larger sense, we don't... but at this time, I'm attempting to deal with the issue scientifically, using evidence from observation...
"Prove to me that you really do possess free will..."
My position is that I cannot prove that.
"You believe you have free will."
Good! Now, let's talk about that word 'believe'... I think it has three basic usages:
I believe Thatcher was PM of Britain... this is something about which I am unsure, but that could be checked.
I believe it's going to rain...
this is a kind of expectation, probability...
I believe there are spirits... this is something that can't be checked using the scientific method... it is a statement based on faith, I would say...
When I say I believe I (we) have free will, it's that third kind of belief, faith...
"...you doubt I have free will..."
Myself, I doubt that you can demonstrate it using the scientific method...
Looking forward to your reply!