There will be no Rapture!!!

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FollowerofShiloh

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Generally speaking, Ignatius I reject for what I consider to be good reason, with one good reason being his seeming Amillennial "replacement theology" stance:

“He also died,
and rose again, and ascended into the heavens to Him that sent Him, and is sat down at His right hand, and shall come at the end of the world, with His Father’s glory, to judge the living and the dead, and to render to every one according to his works.


That has the distinct ring of the Amillennialism nonsense we hear from popular personalities like Hank Hanagraaff (sp) and others of that mindset.

In addition, Ignatius knew nothing of any special covenant with Christ-rejecting Jews. In the same Epistle, Ignatius writes:

“It is absurd to speak of Jesus Christ with the tongue, and to cherish in the mind a Judaism which has now come to an end. For where there is Christianity there cannot be Judaism.” (Epistle to the Magnesians, Chapter X).

Suffice it to say that we have more than enough from scripture to have no real use for this or any other early writer's thoughts on the matter. Paul explained it well enough for all the see and understand where the nation of Israel is concerned, and the important role to play in the end times given that the Lord is concerned enough about their being grafted back in to try and provoke them to jealousy:

Romans 11:1-2, 7-8, 11-24
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, ...
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. ...
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

So, scripture speaks for itself, no matter what others have written who may lay claim to be first or second generation disciples of John, I don't give a tinkers patoot! The Lord inspired what we have in scripture, and the Lord gave us direct access to His Spirit for us to know the Truth in all His glory.

My brethren who are Christ-rejecting Jews WILL come to faith in Yahshuah, and we have that on good authority from scripture.

MM
I will look into this myself and appreciate this content (y)

BTW, You just interrupted my BACON topping pizza that the majority of my kindred cannot eat due to their kosher laws. But it sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo yummyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy :D
 

FollowerofShiloh

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It is absurd to profess Christ Jesus, and to Judaize. For Christianity did not embrace Judaism, but Judaism Christianity, that so every tongue which believeth might be gathered together to God.

It says from Ignatius to the Magnesians.

So the Magnesians clearly were Judaizing and John's Disciple Ignatius corrected them.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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^
Looks like Justin Martyr later on used this same manuscript to use to other Judaizers.
 

Musicmaster

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I will look into this myself and appreciate this content (y)

BTW, You just interrupted my BACON topping pizza that the majority of my kindred cannot eat due to their kosher laws. But it sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo yummyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy :D
I do not abide by those laws, which were intended for a time when we were required to be set apart. Because Yahshuah has completed and fulfilled that "setting apart" in Him, those laws are no more upon us.

I like those pizza's too.

MM
 

Blade

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To be perfectly transparent here, the Church Fathers began with John's Disciples. Much of a lot of the decisions made in the Nicene Creed and others come from them including which Books were Inspired. Most of the Churches staple beliefs are explained and practiced because the Church Fathers confirmed what the Bible was claiming. We even see the Reformers following the same line of instruction that Todays denominations are founded upon.

So for 1800 years we followed the same understanding but ONE thing has changed out of everything established. 200 years ago a known Heretic wrote about pre-trib Rapture. And look at the masses that have ignored Truth for Heresy?
This part is not directed at you. Its hard to talk about, chat about caught up (rapture) when some make it very personal and use words that no believer should ever say.. then to another believer.

What I believe is not based on any preacher or scholar of which I highly respect just lovingly kindly disagree with some. So in my searching I found somethings. Well I heard about pre-rapture started in 1830 and I read what they said. Yet I went searching and I can read about Caught up by a man who wrote something in 1600. I can read as in see what he a Hymn writer who wrote about caught up happening before the great tribulation in 300-400ad. This is not up for debate its fact because anyone can read about it. This is only used when some say pre trib started in 1830. Yeah that is all this proves it does not prove pre trib is right nor wrong.

We forget when Paul wrote this there was no NT no Rev. What I learned over 50y now is GOD will never go against my will. What always happens here is scriptures get left out and "what that verse really means" sure why not. Then the OT which rarely if ever gets into this and how its left out is mind blowing.

So am I living for Christ like they did in Acts? Do I know and never doubt God keeps His promises and will protect me? Read Psa 91 Am I praying 24/7, praying about everything I do and what happens around me? Do I take at least a hour a day and pray and in the spirit yes tongues I am not ashamed of my lord and savoir. Am I loving my lord with all my heart all my soul all my strength and loving my brother as my self? Now if you have to ask what has this to do with anything.. you proved my point.

You talk as if your personal view is the truth. He alone is right not us. He is coming the clouds.. the dead will rise then those that remain will be caught up together to met the lord in the air and be with Him forever. I just type that and.. ooh HES COMING! is that not enough? No for some its not they have to make sure their personal view is gospel and there is no debating them. Hard to talk to a wall. Putting your fingers in all the holes won't stop the leak. Yeah.. laugh.

ALL of this can be summed up by saying...live for Him now. Watch for Him now since this is the only moment you have. We were not promised tomorrow. So pre mid post.. what ever.. I am ready now. You that disagree with that? Praise GOD! Yeah.. a few lines of text does not can not ever offend me
 

FollowerofShiloh

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I do not abide by those laws, which were intended for a time when we were required to be set apart. Because Yahshuah has completed and fulfilled that "setting apart" in Him, those laws are no more upon us.

I like those pizza's too.

MM
I have Jewish Family who think I don't deserve to be buried in the Jewish Cemetery nor will let me visit if I have had pork within so many days of visiting them.

Which cracks me up because they have homosexual children, abomination unto God, that they claim deserves to be buried as a Jew before me :ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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This part is not directed at you. Its hard to talk about, chat about caught up (rapture) when some make it very personal and use words that no believer should ever say.. then to another believer.

What I believe is not based on any preacher or scholar of which I highly respect just lovingly kindly disagree with some. So in my searching I found somethings. Well I heard about pre-rapture started in 1830 and I read what they said. Yet I went searching and I can read about Caught up by a man who wrote something in 1600. I can read as in see what he a Hymn writer who wrote about caught up happening before the great tribulation in 300-400ad. This is not up for debate its fact because anyone can read about it. This is only used when some say pre trib started in 1830. Yeah that is all this proves it does not prove pre trib is right nor wrong.

We forget when Paul wrote this there was no NT no Rev. What I learned over 50y now is GOD will never go against my will. What always happens here is scriptures get left out and "what that verse really means" sure why not. Then the OT which rarely if ever gets into this and how its left out is mind blowing.

So am I living for Christ like they did in Acts? Do I know and never doubt God keeps His promises and will protect me? Read Psa 91 Am I praying 24/7, praying about everything I do and what happens around me? Do I take at least a hour a day and pray and in the spirit yes tongues I am not ashamed of my lord and savoir. Am I loving my lord with all my heart all my soul all my strength and loving my brother as my self? Now if you have to ask what has this to do with anything.. you proved my point.

You talk as if your personal view is the truth. He alone is right not us. He is coming the clouds.. the dead will rise then those that remain will be caught up together to met the lord in the air and be with Him forever. I just type that and.. ooh HES COMING! is that not enough? No for some its not they have to make sure their personal view is gospel and there is no debating them. Hard to talk to a wall. Putting your fingers in all the holes won't stop the leak. Yeah.. laugh.

ALL of this can be summed up by saying...live for Him now. Watch for Him now since this is the only moment you have. We were not promised tomorrow. So pre mid post.. what ever.. I am ready now. You that disagree with that? Praise GOD! Yeah.. a few lines of text does not can not ever offend me
My point is if a known Heretic, which Darby was "Ruled" to be a Heretic, writes something down and later it is some how come to be Doctrine. That Doctrine, by all rights to those who proved him to be a Heretic, is still a Heretic's Doctrine.

I am just saying in theory and in reality millions are following a Heretic's Doctrine.

It's a fact, not a judgement.
 

Musicmaster

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I have Jewish Family who think I don't deserve to be buried in the Jewish Cemetery nor will let me visit if I have had pork within so many days of visiting them.

Which cracks me up because they have homosexual children, abomination unto God, that they claim deserves to be buried as a Jew before me :ROFL::ROFL::ROFL:
What the......? That's CRAZY!

They need to go and visit the HUGE secular Jewish community over in Tel Aviv, which willingly hosts enormous homosexual pride parades every year, and welcomes them all with open arms!

THEY are the people whom the forces of the world will go in to try and destroy toward the latter part of the tribulation period, wiping out two thirds of them before they FINALLY lift up their eyes and look upon Him whom we had pierced, and mourn as for a first born son.

I love my people, but they need the blinders removed from their eyes. They have no clue what's headed their way, but will soon see it coming!

My extended family over in Ireland who are orthodox believe Messiah will be some sort of powerful "political/military figure" who will come in and delivery our land from the clutches of the infidels. Wow. They have no idea what's coming, and who it is that they will embrace as their messiah, and yet will turn out to be the man of sin himself, from whom they will flee for a time... They're primed for the lie!

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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What the......? That's CRAZY!

They need to go and visit the HUGE secular Jewish community over in Tel Aviv, which willingly hosts enormous homosexual pride parades every year, and welcomes them all with open arms!

THEY are the people whom the forces of the world will go in to try and destroy toward the latter part of the tribulation period, wiping out two thirds of them before they FINALLY lift up their eyes and look upon Him whom we had pierced, and mourn as for a first born son.

I love my people, but they need the blinders removed from their eyes. They have no clue what's headed their way, but will soon see it coming!

My extended family over in Ireland who are orthodox believe Messiah will be some sort of powerful "political/military figure" who will come in and delivery our land from the clutches of the infidels. Wow. They have no idea what's coming, and who it is that they will embrace as their messiah, and yet will turn out to be the man of sin himself, from whom they will flee for a time... They're primed for the lie!

MM
The other side of Abraham's children [Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah] (Muslims) are awaiting their Mahdi. So "all of Abraham's descendants" without Christ are in for a Rude Awakening.
 

Musicmaster

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The other side of Abraham's children [Ishmael, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, and Shuah] (Muslims) are awaiting their Mahdi. So "all of Abraham's descendants" without Christ are in for a Rude Awakening.
The really sad part is that so many of them won't wake up, and have their eyes closed permanently, as happened to the rich man who disregarded Lazerus.

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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The really sad part is that so many of them won't wake up, and have their eyes closed permanently, as happened to the rich man who disregarded Lazerus.

MM
Agreed. And then had the audacity to tell Abraham to tell his brothers so they would not end up here. Abraham set him straight about it.

On a side note..
As many Jewish people I know from friendship and family, I know almost as many Muslim. They all adhere to the same or similar Old Testament. Believe in Adam and Eve. Know they come from Abraham. But some how miss we are all related to one another. It's a real example of selective knowledge going on.

At least Esau and Jacob mended their differences but Muslim and Jew would be a cold day in hades before they acknowledge one another as family.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The dead will be raised up first, then we will join them in the ascent, and we all will enter in together...must be a really wide doorway...

It helps to quote the actual text rather than to make claims from afar, with no frame of reference, that's why I quoted it here.
"will be raised up [G450]" or "shall rise [G450]"... which means "to stand again" [bodily] after having been physically dead / after having died...

... same Greek word (G450) speaking of Jesus' Own Bodily "Resurrection," after having physically / bodily died, in verses such as:

--Matthew 17:9

--Matthew 20:19

--Mark 8:31

--Mark 9:9

--Mark 9:31

--Mark 10:34

--[Mark 12:23,25, said of others re: the resurrection (future)]

--Mark 16:9

--[Luke 9:8,19 and Luke 16:31, said of others re: bodily resurrection]

--Luke 18:33

--Luke 24:7

--Luke 24:46

--[John 6:40,44,54, said of others re: bodily resurrection]

--[John 11:23,24, said of others re: bodily resurrection]

--John 20:9

--Acts 2:24

--Acts 10:41

--Acts 13:34

--Acts 17:3

--Acts 17:31

--Romans 14:9

--1 Thessalonians 4:14a "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again G450 even so ..."




The word means "to stand again". That's it.


It does not carry the same meaning as "harpazo [G726 - 'caught up/away' or 'snatched'... or what we call 'raptured']".



So the "we which are alive" ones (of the One Body) do not "meet" the dead in Christ somewhere off of the earth (as if "rise" MEANS that--it doesn't!) and join them THERE [up, somewhere] to then go "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"... NO!;

Instead, the text is conveying that after the dead in Christ are bodily resurrected *first* ('to stand again [G450]' [that's 'on the earth,' just like Jesus did when He G450'd!]), THEN the "we which are [still-]alive" will be "caught up / snatched / raptured / harpazo'd [G726]" TOGETHER [at the same time] WITH them (that's what "caught-up TOGETHER WITH" means--ONE "snatch-action"... not two separate ones).
 

TheDivineWatermark

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The 24 elders ARE the Church, of whom are pictured in Heaven before the Lamb even receives the scroll with the seven seals.
I agree with you here ^ ! (y)

Those elders have their reward already, and the text draws no lines of distinction anywhere that they were only the already-dead people from the Church age.
Also... Agreed! (y)





[Major clue also: Paul had said he would be awarded "IN THAT DAY" (and not to him only!)... not speaking of the day of his/their/our DEATH!]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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[ ^ "From now on the crown of righteousness is laid up for me, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me in that day; but not only to me, but also to all those loving His appearing." - 2Tim4:8]





The "24 elders" are shown wearing the ALREADY-AWARDED "stephanous / crowns" (BEFORE Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6 by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period we call "The Trib [7-yr period]")
 

Musicmaster

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"will be raised up [G450]" or "shall rise [G450]"... which means "to stand again" [bodily] after having been physically dead / after having died...

... same Greek word (G450) speaking of Jesus' Own Bodily "Resurrection," after having physically / bodily died, in verses such as:

--Matthew 17:9

--Matthew 20:19

--Mark 8:31

--Mark 9:9

--Mark 9:31

--Mark 10:34

--[Mark 12:23,25, said of others re: the resurrection (future)]

--Mark 16:9

--[Luke 9:8,19 and Luke 16:31, said of others re: bodily resurrection]

--Luke 18:33

--Luke 24:7

--Luke 24:46

--[John 6:40,44,54, said of others re: bodily resurrection]

--[John 11:23,24, said of others re: bodily resurrection]

--John 20:9

--Acts 2:24

--Acts 10:41

--Acts 13:34

--Acts 17:3

--Acts 17:31

--Romans 14:9

--1 Thessalonians 4:14a "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again G450 even so ..."




The word means "to stand again". That's it.


It does not carry the same meaning as "harpazo [G726 - 'caught up/away' or 'snatched'... or what we call 'raptured']".



So the "we which are alive" ones (of the One Body) do not "meet" the dead in Christ somewhere off of the earth (as if "rise" MEANS that--it doesn't!) and join them THERE [up, somewhere] to then go "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"... NO!;

Instead, the text is conveying that after the dead in Christ are bodily resurrected *first* ('to stand again [G450]' [that's 'on the earth,' just like Jesus did when He G450'd!]), THEN the "we which are [still-]alive" will be "caught up / snatched / raptured / harpazo'd [G726]" TOGETHER [at the same time] WITH them (that's what "caught-up TOGETHER WITH" means--ONE "snatch-action"... not two separate ones).
Well, I don't know where you get your information for which definition applies to the grammatical construct of 1 Thess 4:17, but Thayer's Greek Lexicon shows that the "taken up" is indeed a violent (in a sense) snatching away. This is what the lexicon says about "harpazo" as it is used in this passage:

"used of divine power transferring a person marvelously and swiftly from one place to another, to snatch or catch away: Acts 8:39; passive, πρὸς τ. θεόν, Revelation 12:5; followed by ἕως with the genitive of place, 2 Corinthians 12:2; εἰς τ. παράδεισον, 2 Corinthians 12:4; εἰς ἀέρα, 1 Thessalonians 4:17. "

I'll stick to the lingual authorities that are much further along in their understanding of Greek grammar and meaning than myself and all other here.

MM
 

Musicmaster

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Agreed. And then had the audacity to tell Abraham to tell his brothers so they would not end up here. Abraham set him straight about it.

On a side note..
As many Jewish people I know from friendship and family, I know almost as many Muslim. They all adhere to the same or similar Old Testament. Believe in Adam and Eve. Know they come from Abraham. But some how miss we are all related to one another. It's a real example of selective knowledge going on.

At least Esau and Jacob mended their differences but Muslim and Jew would be a cold day in hades before they acknowledge one another as family.
Islam teaching intentional hatred has demonstrated to the whole world that such hatred is not at all rational at any level. It doesn't have to be. When I see and hear the lesbians and homosexuals out there defend islam, the very religion that is known to cast those people off tall buildings to watch them splatter on the concrete at the base of the building, with mainstream muslims looking on and stoning to death anyone who happens to survive the fall by daring to move after impact, that is a loud and clear message to the fact that islam is indeed a religion of hate. All those whackos out there who blindly support islam will once day find out how wrong they were/are.

MM
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Well, I don't know where you get your information for which definition applies to the grammatical construct of 1 Thess 4:17, but Thayer's Greek Lexicon shows that the "taken up" is indeed a violent (in a sense) snatching away. This is what the lexicon says about "harpazo" as it is used in this passage:
What in my post gave you the impression that I disagree with any of what you've put in this post?

I AGREE that's what "harpazo [G726]" means.

My post was about the word "rise [G450 - 'to stand again']" instead.


(I was not referring to the word "caught up / harpazo [G726 - which indeed means 'snatch']," as you seem to think I was speaking of in that post)

"used of divine power transferring a person marvelously and swiftly from one place to another, to snatch or catch away: Acts 8:39; passive, πρὸς τ. θεόν, Revelation 12:5; followed by ἕως with the genitive of place, 2 Corinthians 12:2; εἰς τ. παράδεισον, 2 Corinthians 12:4; εἰς ἀέρα, 1 Thessalonians 4:17. "
(y) Right!

Again, I am not disagreeing, nor was I anywhere disagreeing with this.

I'll stick to the lingual authorities that are much further along in their understanding of Greek grammar and meaning than myself and all other here.
Ditto what I said above.


It seems you've misunderstood my post. Perhaps read my post again to see its real point, instead of what you mistakenly thought was my point? = )
 

Musicmaster

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What in my post gave you the impression that I disagree with any of what you've put in this post?

I AGREE that's what "harpazo [G726]" means.

My post was about the word "rise [G450 - 'to stand again']" instead.


(I was not referring to the word "caught up / harpazo [G726 - which indeed means 'snatch']," as you seem to think I was speaking of in that post)

(y) Right!

Again, I am not disagreeing, nor was I anywhere disagreeing with this.



Ditto what I said above.


It seems you've misunderstood my post. Perhaps read my post again to see its real point, instead of what you mistakenly thought was my point? = )
Ah. Thanks for the clarification. It's crazy busy around here with lots of distractions, and so sometimes diverts my attention away from key elements of things in these posts...at times that is.

MM
 
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Maybe rapture in tribulation, is about the fact , that the people who prayed, and whom God chose, will be hidden in special places where no one will find them, until the world is cleansed of all evil
 

GRACE_ambassador

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Maybe rapture in tribulation, is about the fact , that the people who prayed, and whom God chose, will be hidden in special places where no one will find them, until the world is cleansed of all evil
Precious friend, do you mean according To These Scriptures?:

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.​
Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the​
devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because​
he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,​
he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.​
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that​
she might fly into the wilderness [ rapture? ], into her place,
where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time,​
from the face of the serpent.​
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after​
the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of​
the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth​
opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the​
dragon cast out of his mouth.​
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to​
make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the​
commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."​
(Revelation 12:12-17 AV)​
What think ye?

Amen.