Predestination is misunderstood...

[reneweddaybyday]

I'm going to take this step-by-step, and see if @reneweddaybyday is still active.

yes, I am interested ... and please do not think I am not interested when there is delay in my reply. I ponder the points made and I look at what is written in Scripture.

My time online is limited to the morning before I go to work ... during my lunch time ... after work ... and weekends. morning and lunch time is when I can catch up on what's been posted to the thread. evenings/weekends is when I may (or may not depending on time constraints) have time to reply to what's been submitted.

I appreciate your patience when I do not reply right away after you have submitted your thoughts ...
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[Genez]

I never had an issue with the detail down to the minutia. I fed on it and learned from it. I still do when I find exegetical works or do my own. There's a man in Korea (I think) who does analysis on chiastic structures in the NC Writings. Intensive work and a challenge to follow. Do you remember being instructed on Chiasms? Like it or not, God has men on this earth who get into the minutia of the Text, be it grammar and syntax, structure, logic, rhetoric, poetry, historical context, etc., etc., to make certain God is being properly understood. I thank Him for His gifts among men. There are also unbelievers who teach some topics in historical settings that focus on times important to the Bible and who Bible teachers should sit down and learn from.

Any analysis of the Text yet to substantiate your repeating a theory re: false evangelists from lessons you've heard? Did you look into Mark 9 and see how it might apply to your theory and relate to Luke 11?

What you desire is noble and good.....
But, you are missing the point.

Where you are presenting your valuable info is in a wrong setting.

It would be nest if you start your own thread with your desired topic in mind.
That way? You will attract those who actually want such a teaching...
When they know they want to learn about it?
They will not become frustrated wondering what they are doing here in this thread about a topic that had interested them to enter.

That way. If you start a thread with the title concerning what you have chosen to teach about?
Those who enter such a thread will want to learn what you have to teach.

just a suggestion....


grace and peace

 

[studier]

ok ... for the record ... I am interested in serious discussion. I may not have the ability you have to get into Scripture in depth in context, but I am not lacking in desire to learn the truth of Scripture. I also want to make sure I understand Scripture so that when I share the Word of God, I do not lead others astray.

FWIW, I have the same attitude.

sometimes what appears to be "disagreement" is due to the clumsiness of online discussion. I think it's much easier to discuss face to face, with open Bibles on the table and coffee ... but I believe we can muddle through respectfully online.

Completely agree. Please also see the private message system if you're a member of this forum.

In agreement Jesus was speaking for the benefit of the whole crowd.

I believe in Luke 11:17-26, Jesus responded to the accusation that He casteth out devils through Beelzebub.

I believe in Luke 11:29-36, Jesus responded to those who sought of Him a sign from heaven.

I believe that within the crowd, there were some who believed in Him ... some who were uncertain ... some who flat out refused to believe. The ones who refused to believe were the ones who accused / tempted Him.

He was speaking directly to His accusers / tempters ... yet the whole crowd could hear His teaching and benefit from it. Jesus often taught in this manner and His teachings exposed the accusers / tempters He was addressing at the time and taught all who were present (and still teaching in our day and time).

Some good thoughts. I especially like how the crowds were increasing per 11:29 (the ESV and NET pick up this increasing language)

right ... they had just witnessed a sign (the devil was gone out, the dumb spake), but rather than believe the kingdom of God is come upon you because He had cast out devils with the finger of God (vs 20), His tempters wanted more and more "proof" ... never satisfied with what they just saw with their own eyes. iow, they resisted the truth.

More good observations. And this is a place to consider what I pointed out before about Luke maybe being a separate event than Matthew & Mark. Some have noted that Matt & Mark look to be earlier events and now Jesus is facing "crowds" who have been influenced by the accusations made against Jesus by the Pharisees at this earlier event with similar language in Matt & Mark.

Luke, continuing Acts, has been telling us about the activities of Jesus and His followers and how Jesus has been hiding His Messiahship which we can see all the way through Luke 9:20-21. Luke has a purpose, a dynamic, and a story and timeline that is not the same as Matt & Mark.

I think people have a tendency to follow after "things" rather than follow the Lord Jesus Christ.

Jesus doesn't want people to follow Him for material things He can do for us. He wants people to follow Him for what He can do in us spiritually once we come to Him in faith.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him ... this is fullness of joy

People have and have always had many issues. Jesus knew what was in all men John2:24. And Luke is writing under inspiration to make the points he must make.

I'm not looking ahead yet in these posts, but I've been discussing this with @sawdust and have said a few things to @Genez. I've been trying to remember to refer to you in these posts so you might get alerted to them. My apology if I missed doing this somewhere. I'm happy to go back and link what I think you should read to get or keep up to date. I'm also happy to continue with @sawdust, if sawdust continues, if you just want to jump in when you can and read what we're discussing. If this gets too cumbersome, maybe I'll shift gears and talk to myself and let you all destroy me afterward! I'm used to the isolation and have preferred it.

 

[studier]

just a suggestion....

Noted. Thanks.

I think we've already addressed this and it looks like @reneweddaybyday just respectfully did so.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Have you actually said somewhere who you think the "sons" are?

I don't think so.

I thought you did here:

If we just stay with Luke and don't try to cross-reference Luke's portrayal of the event, then 'your sons" in Luke 11:19 is speaking of the "sons" of some from or all in the crowd.

FWIW, I think there is a distinct possibility that the article I referenced originally for @reneweddaybyday is correct and that Jesus is referring to His followers. I'm open to you or anyone else changing my mind.

I do not believe Jesus would ever claim His disciples cast out devils through beelzebub.

When Jesus sent 12 disciples, He gave them power to cast out devils:

Luke 9:1-2 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.


Later Jesus sent out 70 disciples to preach in places He would be traveling to. When they returned to Him, they said:

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

through His name ... the name of the Lord Jesus Christ ...


In Luke 9, when a disciple of Jesus told Jesus they had forbad someone who cast out demons in Jesus name, Jesus said:

Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

The demons were cast out in the name of Jesus.


in the record in Acts concerning the 7 sons of Sceva ... they did not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. They said we adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth (Acts 19:13) ... iow they put more stock in Paul than in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ ... the name above every other name in heaven and in earth.
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[studier]

I thought you did here:

Correct. But there remains the issue of precisely who these "sons" are. The article I posted when we began posited that "your sons" is actually referring to Jesus' followers who were there and that Jesus is using rhetorical language to make a point. In case you didn't see my post with @sawdust, because this conversation continued and I had mentioned the article, I have since purchased it and reviewed it. The author does indeed conclude that "your sons" are actually Jesus' followers. IMO the article is well thought out and I am leaning on its conclusion for his reasons and a few of my own. But as I've said, maybe you and/or others can convince me it's wrong.

I do not believe Jesus would ever claim His disciples cast out devils through beelzebub.

I agree with you and so does the article. So, rethink this line of thought about what Jesus is saying.

When Jesus sent 12 disciples, He gave them power to cast out devils:

Luke 9:1-2 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.


Later Jesus sent out 70 disciples to preach in places He would be traveling to. When they returned to Him, they said:

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

through His name ... the name of the Lord Jesus Christ ...

I may be old enough to be your father (or just feel like it at times) so please don't think I'm patronizing or talking down to you when I say, Nice Work! Prior context in the same document!

With this understanding, begin to put together who may well have been in the crowd from which some were accusing Jesus (as the Pharisees had done likely at an earlier event and even with their same accusation - remember how word of mouth spreads and how life was centered around the synagogues).

And ask yourself if Jesus is really accusing some of "your sons" to be doing satanic work that goes against the premise Jesus has begun with - "Every kingdom divided against itself will be destroyed and a house [divided against itself] falls upon a house"

• Is Jesus really accusing anyone of doing satanic work which would destroy Satan's kingdom?
• Or does Jesus have 12-70 followers in the crowds - sons of Israel - possibly men some of the crowds knew and had grown up with - and Jesus is saying are you really prepared to accuse us all of doing Satan's work that would destroy Satan's own kingdom?

Go back to this post and think through the logic. What scenario works better to conclude the logic Jesus is using?

In Luke 9, when a disciple of Jesus told Jesus they had forbad someone who cast out demons in Jesus name, Jesus said:

Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

The demons were cast out in the name of Jesus.

Another good find! Thanks for working. A few questions:

• Is it conclusive that this exorcist is an unbeliever? Are we conclusively told this? Does it matter to the argument?
• What does Jesus mean by Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us?
  • Remember that the exorcist is using Jesus' name.
  • To give you a leading question, how does one using Jesus name turn around and start speaking poorly of Jesus even claiming Jesus is an agent of Satan?
    • Now I'm going to ask you to look at Mark's version of what looks like the same event (I'll look at some references to see if others think it is). Look specifically at Mark 9:39.

I'm shutting down. Will look back next opportunity. Nice work on the research! A pleasant advance I was not expecting. There are more things I can pull from the article to shore up some of this. Also, the logic I posted in the post I linked you to above, is not part of the article, so I'd look forward to anyone who wants to test my take on the logic Jesus is using. Some of my discussion with @sawdust is also important - specifically re: the rhetorical use of "your sons".

 

[studier]

in the record in Acts concerning the 7 sons of Sceva ... they did not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. They said we adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth (Acts 19:13) ... iow they put more stock in Paul than in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ ... the name above every other name in heaven and in earth.

Sorry I missed this last night. I was reminded this morning.

The interesting thing about this event is that it says re: these "wandering Jewish exorcists" - NKJ Acts 19:16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Kind of comical, actually. Maybe not for the wandering exorcists, though. It seems this is not a good example that wandering Jewish exorcists were very successful in the NC Scriptures. It's certainly not an example of Jewish unbelievers casting out demons by Beelzebub or Satan dividing and destroying his own kingdom. It also seems these Scriptures are not endorsing or agreeing that there is actual Jewish exorcism. Also of note, it looks like this word "exorcists" is only used once in the Bible and their "wandering" doesn't seem to speak of them being a normal part of every town or synagogue.

As a consideration re: such "wandering exorcists" Acts 13:6... speaks of a sorcerer/magician who Paul and The Holy Spirit deal with harshly. Point being, there were a lot of crazy things going on. It's seemingly not too different today. But the main point is whether or not Jesus is drawing on any of this [false] exorcism in Luke 11. And this is why I've said we need to deal with His logic and possible or likely rhetoric.