Predestination is misunderstood...

reneweddaybyday · May 18, 2024

yes, I am interested ... and please do not think I am not interested when there is delay in my reply. I ponder the points made and I look at what is written in Scripture.

My time online is limited to the morning before I go to work ... during my lunch time ... after work ... and weekends. morning and lunch time is when I can catch up on what's been posted to the thread. evenings/weekends is when I may (or may not depending on time constraints) have time to reply to what's been submitted.

I appreciate your patience when I do not reply right away after you have submitted your thoughts ...
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Genez · May 18, 2024

studier said:

What you desire is noble and good.....
But, you are missing the point.

Where you are presenting your valuable info is in a wrong setting.

It would be nest if you start your own thread with your desired topic in mind.
That way? You will attract those who actually want such a teaching...
When they know they want to learn about it?
They will not become frustrated wondering what they are doing here in this thread about a topic that had interested them to enter.

That way. If you start a thread with the title concerning what you have chosen to teach about?
Those who enter such a thread will want to learn what you have to teach.

just a suggestion....

grace and peace

studier · May 18, 2024

reneweddaybyday said:

FWIW, I have the same attitude.

reneweddaybyday said:

Completely agree. Please also see the private message system if you're a member of this forum.

reneweddaybyday said:

Some good thoughts. I especially like how the crowds were increasing per 11:29 (the ESV and NET pick up this increasing language)

reneweddaybyday said:

More good observations. And this is a place to consider what I pointed out before about Luke maybe being a separate event than Matthew & Mark. Some have noted that Matt & Mark look to be earlier events and now Jesus is facing "crowds" who have been influenced by the accusations made against Jesus by the Pharisees at this earlier event with similar language in Matt & Mark.

Luke, continuing Acts, has been telling us about the activities of Jesus and His followers and how Jesus has been hiding His Messiahship which we can see all the way through Luke 9:20-21. Luke has a purpose, a dynamic, and a story and timeline that is not the same as Matt & Mark.

reneweddaybyday said:

People have and have always had many issues. Jesus knew what was in all men John2:24. And Luke is writing under inspiration to make the points he must make.

I'm not looking ahead yet in these posts, but I've been discussing this with @sawdust and have said a few things to @Genez. I've been trying to remember to refer to you in these posts so you might get alerted to them. My apology if I missed doing this somewhere. I'm happy to go back and link what I think you should read to get or keep up to date. I'm also happy to continue with @sawdust, if sawdust continues, if you just want to jump in when you can and read what we're discussing. If this gets too cumbersome, maybe I'll shift gears and talk to myself and let you all destroy me afterward! I'm used to the isolation and have preferred it.

studier · May 18, 2024

Genez said:

Noted. Thanks.

I think we've already addressed this and it looks like @reneweddaybyday just respectfully did so.

reneweddaybyday · May 18, 2024

studier said:

I thought you did here:

studier said:

I do not believe Jesus would ever claim His disciples cast out devils through beelzebub.

When Jesus sent 12 disciples, He gave them power to cast out devils:

Luke 9:1-2 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases. And he sent them to preach the kingdom of God, and to heal the sick.

Later Jesus sent out 70 disciples to preach in places He would be traveling to. When they returned to Him, they said:

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

through His name ... the name of the Lord Jesus Christ ...

In Luke 9, when a disciple of Jesus told Jesus they had forbad someone who cast out demons in Jesus name, Jesus said:

Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

The demons were cast out in the name of Jesus.

in the record in Acts concerning the 7 sons of Sceva ... they did not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. They said we adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth (Acts 19:13) ... iow they put more stock in Paul than in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ ... the name above every other name in heaven and in earth.
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studier · May 18, 2024

reneweddaybyday said:

Correct. But there remains the issue of precisely who these "sons" are. The article I posted when we began posited that "your sons" is actually referring to Jesus' followers who were there and that Jesus is using rhetorical language to make a point. In case you didn't see my post with @sawdust, because this conversation continued and I had mentioned the article, I have since purchased it and reviewed it. The author does indeed conclude that "your sons" are actually Jesus' followers. IMO the article is well thought out and I am leaning on its conclusion for his reasons and a few of my own. But as I've said, maybe you and/or others can convince me it's wrong.

reneweddaybyday said:

I agree with you and so does the article. So, rethink this line of thought about what Jesus is saying.

reneweddaybyday said:

I may be old enough to be your father (or just feel like it at times) so please don't think I'm patronizing or talking down to you when I say, Nice Work! Prior context in the same document!

With this understanding, begin to put together who may well have been in the crowd from which some were accusing Jesus (as the Pharisees had done likely at an earlier event and even with their same accusation - remember how word of mouth spreads and how life was centered around the synagogues).

And ask yourself if Jesus is really accusing some of "your sons" to be doing satanic work that goes against the premise Jesus has begun with - "Every kingdom divided against itself will be destroyed and a house [divided against itself] falls upon a house"

Is Jesus really accusing anyone of doing satanic work which would destroy Satan's kingdom?
Or does Jesus have 12-70 followers in the crowds - sons of Israel - possibly men some of the crowds knew and had grown up with - and Jesus is saying are you really prepared to accuse us all of doing Satan's work that would destroy Satan's own kingdom?

Go back to this post and think through the logic. What scenario works better to conclude the logic Jesus is using?

reneweddaybyday said:

Another good find! Thanks for working. A few questions:

Is it conclusive that this exorcist is an unbeliever? Are we conclusively told this? Does it matter to the argument?
What does Jesus mean by Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us?
- Remember that the exorcist is using Jesus' name.
- To give you a leading question, how does one using Jesus name turn around and start speaking poorly of Jesus even claiming Jesus is an agent of Satan?
  - Now I'm going to ask you to look at Mark's version of what looks like the same event (I'll look at some references to see if others think it is). Look specifically at Mark 9:39.

I'm shutting down. Will look back next opportunity. Nice work on the research! A pleasant advance I was not expecting. There are more things I can pull from the article to shore up some of this. Also, the logic I posted in the post I linked you to above, is not part of the article, so I'd look forward to anyone who wants to test my take on the logic Jesus is using. Some of my discussion with @sawdust is also important - specifically re: the rhetorical use of "your sons".

studier · May 19, 2024

reneweddaybyday said:

Sorry I missed this last night. I was reminded this morning.

The interesting thing about this event is that it says re: these "wandering Jewish exorcists" - NKJ Acts 19:16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Kind of comical, actually. Maybe not for the wandering exorcists, though. It seems this is not a good example that wandering Jewish exorcists were very successful in the NC Scriptures. It's certainly not an example of Jewish unbelievers casting out demons by Beelzebub or Satan dividing and destroying his own kingdom. It also seems these Scriptures are not endorsing or agreeing that there is actual Jewish exorcism. Also of note, it looks like this word "exorcists" is only used once in the Bible and their "wandering" doesn't seem to speak of them being a normal part of every town or synagogue.

As a consideration re: such "wandering exorcists" Acts 13:6... speaks of a sorcerer/magician who Paul and The Holy Spirit deal with harshly. Point being, there were a lot of crazy things going on. It's seemingly not too different today. But the main point is whether or not Jesus is drawing on any of this [false] exorcism in Luke 11. And this is why I've said we need to deal with His logic and possible or likely rhetoric.

reneweddaybyday · May 19, 2024

studier said:

I have read some commentaries which indicate the records in Matthew and Mark speak of the same event and that Jesus was in Galilee at the time ... and the record in Luke was a later event which took place in Judea.

I believe the point Jesus makes in Matt 12 concerning satan being divided against himself is the same point as in Luke 11.

Perhaps there were different occurrences and different folks present, but the point is the same.

studier said:

yes ... all four gospels point to different aspects God wants us to understand concerning the Lord Jesus Christ. We might read Matthew and then move to Mark and think "I just read this in Matthew" but there's a different nuance. It's good to understand the harmony of the gospels as well as understand the differences in the gospels.

studier said:

I've read through all the pages of this thread. At times I'm amazed at all the posts submitted in a day ... sometimes I'll start to reply to a post and by the time I submit, another 5 pages have gone by. whew!

studier said:

I like back and forth dialogue ... constructive discussion of the record ... open and honest debate. thanks for sticking it out with me ...
.

Genez · May 19, 2024

studier said:

Jews as a rule did not have exorcists in the community. It was not normal Jewish thinking.

And, its odd that this Johnny come lately type group were not in high demand since we were seeing demon possession everywhere in Israel in those days. Most likely, they formed as a result of seeing all the Christian activity of casting out demons.

The Pharisees were not going around casting out demons. They were hyper legalists who were too busy setting up rules and regulations to follow as an alleged means to gain salvation.

And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke.
The crowd was amazed and said, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”

Matthew 9:33

It was not something to be seen in Israel before Jesus arrived on the scene! The religious leaders had not been casting out demons before Jesus appeared!

That is why Jesus was putting down the religious leaders because they could not cast out demons. And, there they were accusing Jesus of being enabled by Satanic powers. In other words? They claimed proudly that they were of God, but were not greater than Satan,. When they who claimed they were truly of God and Jesus not, what they claimed equated with blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to say only Satan can cast out demons. They were making by their claim of being of God themselves to be of inferior power than those who are of Satan's power...

And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke.
The crowd was amazed and said, “Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”

Matthew 9:33

Note!!!!!!!

“Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”

The Pharisees had not been casting out demons!!!!

.......

reneweddaybyday · May 19, 2024

studier said:

I addressed this issue here.

I do not know what article you rely on in your claim that Jesus spoke rhetorically or what reasoning the author of your article used in concluding that "your sons" are actually Jesus' followers.

I do not believe Jesus would ever state that His disciples cast out demons through beelzebub ... rhetorically or otherwise. And I do understand that within the crowd present at the time, there were folks who followed Jesus and/or who were amazed after Jesus cast out the demon.

However, Jesus was addressing folks who accused Him of satanic activity. Jesus was speaking of the "sons" of His accusers.

studier said:

I do not believe Jesus was accusing anyone of doing satanic work.

Jesus was responding to those who accused Him of casting out devils through beelzebub.

The response of Jesus was "if I by beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out?"

Allison Trites:

The point here is that in accusing Jesus of using Satanic power, the Jews were condemning their own people of doing the same. This effective use of logic turned the argument of Jesus' opponents back against them. ... Jesus also showed that this question must be asked about the exorcisms that the followers of his accusers performed. Under whose auspices were they carried out? To question Jesus was, in effect, to question them as well: "They cast out demons, too, so they will condemn you for what you have said" (11:19). Their rejection of Jesus' exorcisms alone was based upon sheer prejudice and was untenable.

(See Luke, Acts Cornerstone Bible Commentary)

John MacArthur:

The Lord’s question exposed their (PHARISEES/SCRIBES) inconsistency, hypocrisy, and lack of integrity. If casting out demons proved someone was in league with Satan, then why were they not suspicious of their own exorcists? How could they not apply the same standards to their failures as they did to Jesus' successes? By insisting that their own exorcists ineffective attempts to cast out demons were from God, while rejecting Jesus' uniformly effective exorcisms as being from Satan, they were in effect making Satan more powerful than God.

(See Luke 1-17 MacArthur New Testament Commentary)

studier said:

The point of Jesus was if He cast demons out by beelzebub, then by whom do "your" [the accusers] sons cast them out.

I do not believe Jesus shifted the accusations of His accusers from Himself to His disciples in the crowd. He stood His ground, faced His accusers, told them He cast out devils by the finger of God and the kingdom of God had come upon them (vs 20).

studier said:

We skipped over vs 18 and went straight to vs 19 (don't know why, but that's where we are). Can we consider vs 18 after we've discussed vs 19? Thanks!

studier said:

I believe the exorcist in Luke 9 was a believer ... he cast out devils in the name of Jesus ... fwiw, I do not believe the "sons" of the accusers of Jesus cast out devils in the name of Jesus. They probably would have been excommunicated if they had (John 9:22).

And in the record in Mark, Jesus specifically stated that "there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me" and further "he that is not against us is on our part".

studier said:

if I can, I'll get back to you on that other post. It's just a lot to work through and my time is limited. you'll need to be patient with me ...
.

PaulThomson · May 19, 2024

Cameron143 said:

Let me help. Total depravity means complete absolute depravity. Total inability to do X means complete inability to do X.

Christians who hold to Total Depravity and Total Inability need more accurately and honestly to name their doctrine, and Calvinists need to change their acronym to a more accurate and honest expression of what they actually believe,

Instead of total depravity, they should have Pan-aspectual Imperfection, or Omni-faceted Imperfection. This would provide the letters PULIP, which could be rearranged to PUPIL, or OULIP which could be rearranged to LOUPI.

reneweddaybyday · May 19, 2024

studier said:

Comical and tragic at the same time.

Tragic because these were the sons of Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests ... one responsible for teaching God's Word to the people. Yet his sons were ignorant of Scripture concerning the Lord Jesus Christ.

From the record, these sons of Sceva did not believe in Jesus ... they were relying on the name of Paul after they saw or heard about the special miracles wrought by the hands of Paul:

Acts 19:

11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

"whom Paul preacheth" ... that's our clue that they put more stock in the name of Paul than in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

studier said:

I mentioned the sons of Sceva to point out that they did not believe in Jesus.

To me, these guys would be a prime example of the Lord, Lord folks (Matt 7:21-23). They mentioned the name of Jesus but to me it appears they put more stock in Paul than Jesus because they saw or had heard about the miracles God worked out at the hands of Paul.

studier said:

Again, I do not believe Jesus spoke rhetorically. I believe His point was that in suggesting Jesus cast demons out through beelzebub ... then by whom do the sons of the accusers cast them out.

The accusers said "He" casts out demons ... not "He and His followers" or "they" ... but "He" – meaning Jesus. And Jesus responded asking by whom do "your" sons ... directly addressing his accusers, not the bystanders in the crowd.
.

reneweddaybyday · May 19, 2024

Genez said:

looking at the verses in Acts 19:

Acts 19:11-13 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.

Genez said:

In going through some commentaries, I read that there were exorcists but they used various incantations in their attempts to cast out demons.

The same commentaries state that the claim "Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel" was due to the authority Jesus had over demons ... that when Jesus cast out devils, the devils immediately left.

now I'm somewhat confused ... gonna have to look into this further. thanks for pointing this out.

Genez said:

yes, total blasphemy against the Lord Jesus Christ in their claim that He used satanic practices to cast out demons.

Jesus told them: But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you (Luke 11:20).

Jesus exposed their error and their blindness to the fact that what they had been waiting for (the kingdom of God) had come ... and reading to the end of the record, the accusers remained blind.

the accusers may be some of those referred to in Matt 7:21-23 (the Lord, Lord folks).

Genez said:

again, I need to look into this because some commentaries suggest that there was some activity going on.

I also go by what Jesus said "by whom do your sons cast them out".

I'll look into this ... thanks for the info.

.

Cameron143 · May 19, 2024

PaulThomson said:

I told you what it means. You don't have to accept it. But by redefining terms you further confuse the subject. Total depravity didn't originally mean total inability.

HeIsHere · May 19, 2024

PaulThomson said:

This also deserves this....

sawdust · May 19, 2024

studier said:

Yes, but the hearer must identify with the subject. Do you think Jesus accusers will identify with those casting out demons in the name of Jesus?

I'm happy to continue discussing but this really needs to be in another thread so others can get on with the topic of the thread and it's related subjects.

Genez · May 19, 2024

reneweddaybyday said:

Commentaries?... hmmmm. Of course... many commentaries are usually deficient.

Maybe there were Jewish charlatans looking for money, perhaps.

Nowhere in the OT do we see a prescribed way for casting out demons. No where!
It was not real Jewish thinking.

David could use music to sedate the demonically influenced king Saul. But there was no exorcism.
A true exorcism would be like what happened with Legion who returned to his right mind after Jesus cast out the demons.
King Saul could have the demon return at any time... That was not an exorcism.

In the mean while..

And when the demon was driven out, the man who had been mute spoke.

The crowd was amazed and said,

“Nothing like this has ever been seen in Israel.”

Matthew 9:33

What was seen before was not a real exorcism.
The Pharisees had no one who could cast out demons.
Nowhere do we see the Pharisees claiming they could do the same thing.
And, they would have done so in a New York second if they could!

What was happening was humiliating to the Pharisees... who were seeing all the demon
possessed people under their jurisdiction that they were unable to help....

They could only belittle Jesus out of jealousy.

......... grace and peace

Genez · May 19, 2024

reneweddaybyday said:

Not only Jesus.

If you read through the gospels you will see that his disciples whom he sent out were also able to cast out demons immediately.
But! The disciples of the Pharisees could not do that.

Yet? The Pharisees had the nerve to attribute the superior ability of Jesus (and his disciples) to Beelzebub.
They were in effect saying? That Satan was superior to the power of God. God whom they claimed to be sons of.

That means?
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit!

And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out?

Therefore they will be your judges. But if I cast out demons with the finger of God,

surely the kingdom of God has come upon you." Luke 11:19-20

Jesus was rubbing their noses in it them when he said that the Pharisees disciples (called "sons") could not do that!

Yes.. "sons." Just like Jesus commanded his own disciples to call no man on earth "father."
For some religious sects used to form a "father/son" relationship with the followers.
Jesus forbade his disciples to do the same. "Call no man on earth "father."

grace and peace ..........................

studier · May 20, 2024

sawdust said:

Posted on another thread awaiting approval.

No disrespect to anyone, but I may not go back through these posts to see what I may have missed. It's hard to discuss piecemeal with different posters and wonder who is reading what. I think I laid out enough on the new thread to present how and why I concluded who "your' sons" are in Luke11:19, which I think is mainly what @reneweddaybyday started with. Of course there are usually more layers to pursue. If the Text were simple and/or the Spirit was making us all full, then we'd know it all by now.

My apology to @Genez (this thread) for how this grew legs. Who knew...

By the above I've cc'd who I recall taking part. My apology if I missed anyone.

Genez · May 20, 2024

studier said:

If you want to have your premise to blossom?
It needs its own dedicated thread.
One for what people will be knowingly clicking it on for.

At present people clicking on "predestination-is-misunderstood " are going to be caught off guard,
and maybe not even interested in what you have to say.

I feel your premise is worthy of a dedicated discussion, and planting your seed-thought in a garden of another species can not do it justice.

Grace and peace!

Predestination is misunderstood...

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