Works and Salvation

iwant2serve · Nov 3, 2014

I know this has been a topic before but I want to bring it up again. Many times when works are mentioned people say that is works based and you cannot gain salvation by works. Well I think most people know that works does not save anyone and Jesus said in order to have salvation you must be born again, Paul says that we are save by grace through faith least any man boast. Now james says works makes faith perfect. Therefore you cannot have faith to be saved if there are no works that accomendate your faith.
James 2:14-26
John 3:7
Ephesians 2:8-9

eternally-gratefull · Nov 3, 2014

iwant2serve said:

the problem is, people will say you must work to be saved. Which makes a mockery of grace, It is either grace or works, it can not be both.

James was written to the church, to have us test our faith. From the first to the last chapter he wanted us to test differing aspects of our faith. The faith plus works was just another test. Do you just believe (accompanied by no works) or do you have true faith (which WILL BE accompanied by works)..and can mere belief save you? the answer is no.

sassylady · Nov 3, 2014

Works should follow faith; the Love of God in a believer is expressed by doing works.

4enlightment · Nov 3, 2014

iwant2serve said:

Salvation comes from being rescue from; but during these trials that we must goes through, we must stand on the side of righteousness and that takes works. Even If our bodies has given up, but as long as you has the desire to do what is right that counts. Jonah had spent three days in the belly, but when he had came out, that was the act of salvation, the feeling of relief finally had came.

SeaBass · Nov 3, 2014

iwant2serve said:

Jesus said "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you:...."

Skinski7 · Nov 3, 2014

iwant2serve said:

The truth is very simple and all the debate is simply a result of people who will not accept the plain meaning of the text.

When the Bible speaks of "not of works" it is simply a reference that "obedience to rules does not effect inward change." When the Bible teaches "saved by grace THROUGH faith" it is speaking of the actual dynamic of transformation which is simply "a heart yielded to God."

The meaning of salvation is in the context of being "saved from sin." The means by which we are "saved from sin" is through a total heart transformation or in other words being "born again to the Spirit." Thus when a repentant sinner comes clean with God and submits themselves to His lead then the power of God will manifest through that person and the love of God will be wrought in their heart.

Salvation is a present active manifest state of abiding in the will of God wholeheartedly. Such a state is only wrought through godly sorrow working repentance unto salvation, a repentance which necessitates a change in action because the iniquity (ie. selfish motive to sin) is purged from the heart permanently. The wild horse is broken and a submissive spirit of born THEN God empowers the individual to be an overcomer because they have RECEIVED the implanted word which can save the soul.

There are many whom are deceived and associate "works" with "doing." They are wrong. The "works" that have no bearing on salvation are works done apart from the grace (or leading) of God. Thus one cannot save themselves via a performance that is not in cooperation with God. Yet one can save themselves by abiding/cooperating with God and thus allowing God to work in them whereby true transformation takes place. This is why Jesus taught we must abide in Him and it is why Paul taught that the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ is what sets us free.

Many wolves in the world treat salvation as some kind of abstract package which is to be "trusted in" whilst they are still manifestly wicked. These people are still "workers of iniquity" because the selfish motive of sin was never purged from the heart in a genuine repentance experience and therefore they easily buy into a false salvation message which disconnects salvation from a manifest condition of a heart, a condition whereby the heart is pure.

The bottom line is that heart purity it utterly rejected by these people and heart purity is a subject they simply cannot discuss because to do so utterly undermines their belief system.

I hope this helps.

Thanks.

SeaBass · Nov 3, 2014

sassylady said:

What if one has faith but no works that follow that faith. Can that faith only save him?

notuptome · Nov 3, 2014

Eph 2:10 says that we are Christs workmanship created to do good works. Good works always flow out of the believer not into the believer. Branches bear the fruit which is produced by the vine not by the branch. If you believe in the Lord Jesus you will serve Him and do His will. Service does not produce salvation but is an evidence of salvation in the present and possessive mode.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · Nov 3, 2014

SeaBass said:

Isn't that entirely up to God?

What business is it of yours?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

SeaBass · Nov 3, 2014

notuptome said:

What if one has faith but no works that follow that faith. Can that faith only save him?

eternally-gratefull · Nov 3, 2014

SeaBass said:

then he NEVER HAD FAITH TO BEGIN WITH. He was a LIAR. (which was James point)

But whats that to you? Is God incapable of knowing if a persons faith is real or not? or is God so weak he needs us to prove our faith in case he is wrong, with our work?

Skinski7 · Nov 3, 2014

Now to add to the post I wrote above, it is important to understand why Jesus Christ had to die which is something that has been highly perverted in the modern day.

Jesus died to effect a rescue of sinners from condemnation via purchasing them from the dominion of sin via his blood.

God requires us to die WITH Jesus in repentance (where we die to the service of sin) whereby we can be raised up to newness of life by the Spirit (into a state where we serve righteousness). It is through Jesus being the second Adam and a near kinsman to human beings that we may be adopted into the family of God as children.

When we first sinned we forsook our birthright and became children of the devil. Jesus reverses this via his death by bringing into effect the New Covenant which we can be enjoined to by His blood. The blood of Jesus is in effect the signature of God on this contract which we enter into. It is the opportunity for sinners to be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

Thus we are firstly set free from sinning through the baptism of repentance and given over to victory by being raised up by the Spirit to newness of life. Secondly we are set free from the condemnation wrought by our past sins through the mercy of God because we are identified with the Second Adam, not the first which remains condemned. Our old man is crucified and therefore become complete disconnected from our former rebel self. The rebellion is renounced once and for all and we are made the righteousness God IN us through abiding in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ.

Read the Bible and reflect on what it says. Throw out all the doctrines of men where rhetoric is used in the absence of clear Biblical sentiment.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Rth 4:10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.

Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

4enlightment · Nov 3, 2014

SeaBass said:

During the time of testing, they'll be doing a lot of work just to hold unto their faith. Because the devil knows how to sift us like wheat. But one thing, God will make sure that the devil only can tempt you not to the point of breaking, but close enough to your breaking point, something that you can bare.

Billyd · Nov 3, 2014

SeaBass said:

Don't you think that your argument really hinges on whether God works through you or you work for God? Think about it. I think that most of us are trying to tell you must be saved for God to work through you. Where there is no salvation, there can be no works of God.

SeaBass · Nov 3, 2014

Billyd said:

Phil 1:6 "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ"

Who does God work in? Those that are obeying His commands/will. When God commands repent and be baptized for remission of sins (saved) in Acts 2:38 for example, then God is working in those that obey God's command. How can one claim God is working in him if he is NOT obeying God's will? How can one claim to be saved by NOT doing what God has said?

Skinski7 · Nov 3, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

This statement is nonsense. This person has to throw reason out the window to conclude such a thing and must blatantly ignore the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Faith itself is a work (1 Th1:3) because faith encompasses doing.

Doing = Active Effort = Work.

Jesus clearly taught we must be DOERS of the word. DOING means WORK. DOING means ACTIVELY ENGAGING IN A TASK.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

It is in the hearing AND doing of the sayings of Jesus that the house is BUILT upon the rock. It could not be clearer.

Jesus taught LISTEN and DO.

Doing makes a mockery of grace? That is absurd. The Bible says that we "receive grace for obedience" or in other words we "receive the words of Jesus to do them." How on earth can one be so deceived to equate such a thing with mocking grace? One indeed must to throw all reason out the window to conclude such a thing.

When the Bible says "not of works" it is Paul speaking of "works" in the context of "obedience to the law of Moses outwardly whilst remaining evil inwardly." In other words it is a notion laying a charge to those who would deny the grace of God and think they can simply obey rules and regulations and be saved due to such efforts. That was the boast mentioned in Romans 2...

Rom 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
...
Rom 2:23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

Paul writes...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Salvation is wrought via the working dynamic of grace THROUGH faith. In other words we wholeheartedly abide in the grace of God and therefore DO what it teaches us. It couldn't be clearer. Paul wrote...

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

The grace of God that brings salvation TEACHES us the way to go. It is through yielding or applying that teaching that the transformation of salvation is wrought in the heart. That is why the Bible says FAITH PURIFIES THE HEART (Act 15:9). Faith purifies the heart of BOTH Jews and Gentiles because the dynamic is via grace THROUGH faith not the law of Moses.

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Yet there are wicked people who refuse to obey God and thus want a salvation which is purely forensic and thus they argue against obedience to God being a necessary condition for salvation.

Jesus said this...

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

STRIVE means...

agōnizomai
From G73; to struggle, literally (to compete for a prize), figuratively (to contend with an adversary), or generally (to endeavor to accomplish something): - fight, labor fervently, strive.

That sounds like work to me. To LABOR FERVENTLY.

It is the "workers of iniquity" who refused to strive. They refused to repent and therefore never departed from iniquity.

How many people today claim to be Christian's and yet argue continually in favour of ongoing wickedness? Very many do. These people utterly deny the teachings of Jesus Christ Himself. They twist scriptures like Eph 2:8-9 into meaning "DO NOTHING" and then scoff at those who teach you must "DO SOMETHING." They are in effect scoffing at Jesus who said STRIVE, DO, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, DIG DEEP, PUT YOUR HAND TO THE PLOW, FOLLOW ME.

Are many of us so easily deceived by foolish rhetoric? How is it that so many of us so easily lie to ourselves?

Wake up folks. Jesus said we must be DOERS and that we must STRIVE and that only a FEW will do that but MANY will refuse. I want to be one of the FEW and I don't care what anyone thinks or how much scorn is put upon the plain truth, it is what it is and reality will not bend to my opinion, I have to bend my opinion to reality, no matter how much it hurts.

SeaBass · Nov 3, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

So you just made it IMPOSSIBLE for one to be saved by faith only. Works must accompany the faith else one does not have a "real" faith.

SeaBass · Nov 3, 2014

4enlightment said:

You say works are necessary to hold unto faith. So no works = no faith = no salvation.

Skinski7 · Nov 3, 2014

Noah had a faith that worked. Noah BUILT the ark by faith. If Noah had of simply "trusted" and claimed that he didn't have to do anything and just rested in his "trust" he would have drowned with the rest of the world.

Noah understood that faith works. Noah understood that faith is active. Noah understand that faith = faithfulness = obedience. Unbelief = disobedience = unfaithfulness.

Those who teach that obedience is not a condition of salvation are liars. They are teaching that you can rebel against God and not surely die which is what Satan taught way back in the beginning. We either serve God or we serve Satan. We either yield to God and serve righteousness or we yield to the devil and serve sin. Those are the two roads we can take and we cannot walk both at the same time. That is why we must...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

4enlightment · Nov 3, 2014

SeaBass said:

In these times it is very hard to hold onto the word as it is written. There's too many out there that is convincing that the word of God isn't true. These people are so convincing that if it were possible, they can fool the elects. The scriptures are for those that are weak, that need a crutch to hold (something to support them) them up and so they must go by what is written in the scriptures until they become strong.

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 4:6
“If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”

Matthew 4:7
Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’”

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