Ezekiel Temple vision, Ezekiel 40-48, a millennial temple?

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Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#1
I decided to make a new thread rather then hijacking and derailing the thread titled 144000 by Jillyanne.

The dialog between Kennethcadwell, JesusIsAll and myself went down as follows:

Do you want to have temple worship again, bull and animal sacrifices? Do you want to resurrect the old system of shadows? This is trampling on the blood of Christ.
You mean as in the millennial temple of Ezekiel 40-48?
Millennial temple?, I see post-Babylonian temple described here...Why does mainstream Christianity skip over the second temple?
We don't, the problem is you must take the dimensions given for the temple in Ezekiel and look at the dimension for both the first and second temple. Ezekiel's temple dimensions do not match either one of those temples.
Perhaps they didn't obey in building it right, or perhaps there is a problem in interpreting the data. I'll get back with you on that... I believe you have a valid question or point.
Now concerning the temple in Ezekiel 40-48...

Kenneth is correct is saying that the dimensions given do not match the second temple. But it is not like I can't give a theories why it wasn't. Most mainstream Christians believe this is a description of a yet (our) future temple that will be build by Jesus or Jews during or before a future millennium. I will try to demonstrated biblically that this view has more problems, even bordering to an extent of blasphemy, then the theories i will suggest..First I will give you my theories, then I will give you reasons why this can't be a future (our future) millennial temple.

My theories:

1) I said perhaps they didn't build it right in following the blueprint. This could be true, because during the time of the second temple it is recorded in Ezra that they had opposition and resistance regarding the building process. Their surrounding neighbors didn't want the Israelites there and give them problems (you can read about starting Ezra 4).

2) This ties in with theory 1) somewhat. In Ezekiel 43:10-11, God tells Ezekiel to give the plans to the Israelites if they are ashamed of their iniquities, if they are ashamed of all they've done, then make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement.... If this was to be the model of the second temple, Zerubbabel's temple, perhaps it didn't get built to exact specifications because not all of the Jews who went into exile were repentant. See there is a condition involved to building this temple according to its exact specifications. We know that not all Jews in Babylon wanted to leave Babylon and didn't. They had their business, friends, mixed marriages most like, families etc. etc. Those that did leave weren't much better off, read some Jew repressed the poor, some men married Gentile women. We ready about the trouble the Israelites had in building from the opposition from their neighbors. Some Jews were ashamed, but not all, perhaps not enough. Perhaps Ezekiel never gave this plans to the Israelites because they did not repent before Ezekiel's death. Perhaps the book of Ezekiel was found later in Babylon later after the Jews return to Jerusalem. This theory is very probable. This could have a possible or potential temple (what might have been) IF the Jew were ashamed of their sin. However, IMO, just like Moses temple, this temple is not without spiritual value and meaning.

3) The vision given was not of a physical temple, but a spiritual one. We know the temple described to Moses has heavenly and spiritual applications described in Hebrews and other parts of scripture. This temple described in Ezekiel has definite spiritual qualities that goes against what we see in the natural realm. In Chapter 47, we see water flowing out of the temple, the temple was the source of the water flowing. As the LORD took Ezekiel out in the water, it got deeper and deeper as Ezekiel went. This goes against the natural characters of water, as water flows from it's source it gets less and less (evaporation, plant, animal and human life drink that water consume the water). This certainly a picture of heavenly things. Not only that, but it said that the plants along the river will provide food (different every month) and their leaves (that do not wither) for healing. This sounds much like John heavenly vision in Revelation 22. This river flow through the dead sea and brings it to life, for we see fishermen fishing and catching all kinds of fish (Gentiles, I believe) in their nets. To me, this sounds like the Church age, Christs kingdom on this side of reality (post eternal) and the work God is doing through the Church. When Christ came the first time, He brought His kingdom with Him. John the baptist declared it, and so did Jesus:
Jesus Begins His Galilean Ministry

14 Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom[e] of God, 15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)

And Christs Kingdom was fully inaugurated at His ascension, were He now sits at the right hand of the Father. Christ depicts the Kingdom of heaven to be much like this spiritual vision in Ezekiel, "the kingdom of heaven is like...a small mustered seed grows into a big tree, a loft of bread with a little leaven to start off with but fills the whole lump, ...


The Parable of the Dragnet

47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. (Matt. 13:47)

I could say more, but like most of you I don't like long posts...but with topic and the garbage being thrown around it's a must. Sorry if that offends some of you, but I must be true to my convictions.
______________________________________________________________________

Now I will address the problems with Ezekiel's temple being the millennial temple, the popular mainstream dispensationalist view and I'll demonstrate, biblically, that this temple can not (it's impossible) be a future millennial temple.


1) In Ezekiel 44:22, it says about the priests" [SUP]22 [/SUP]They shall not take as wife a widow or a divorced woman, but take virgins of the descendants of the house of Israel, or widows of priests. Most dispensationalist will argue that this temple is after Christ's return, so called rapture of the Church, were He reign with an iron fist. So the current believers are resurrected at the rapture and serve Christ in some way. However, Jesus said in Luke 20 that after the resurrection no man will marry. After the resurrection marriage is done away with.

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

2) Also in the resurrection of the Saints, Jesus says there is no more death, see verse 36 in the verse above. Now look back to ezekiel's passage about the priesthood's condition of marriage, they can marry a woman of a deceased priest. Now why would Ezekiel put that in there if there is no more death? The passage in Ezekiel suggest that there will be death, because a priest can marry a deceased priest's wife. To say this temple is a millennial temple flies in the face of scripture, this is what the Paul says after the resurrection: (would recommend you read all of 1 Corinthians 15):


“Death is swallowed up in victory.”[g]
55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”


Dispensationalist will try to explain this away by saying there is more then 1 physical resurrection, and actual split 1 coming of Christ into two, claiming it is still 1, or a secret one, however this view has no biblical merit. (besides a spiritual resurrection, that bible calls regeneration when you first get saved). The bible teach Christ will come with a loud noise, not a secret coming.

3) In Ezekiel 44:9, God tells Ezekiel condition for temple service is that one needs to be circumcised of the heart and flesh. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Thus says the Lord God: “No foreigner, uncircumcised in heart or uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter My sanctuary, including any foreigner who is among the children of Israel. The NT clearly states that circumcision of the flesh has no value before God.

Galatians 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

1 Corinthians 7:19
19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

Galatians 6:15
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.

Romans 2:28-29
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

So God is only concerned with circumcision of the heart, not the flesh. But in Ezekiel's you had to have both which indicts that if this temple were to be built, it had to have been before the NT, the new covenant, pre-Christ's first coming. So what, are going back to the old covenant in the millennium people? The old covenant that the writer of Hebrews said was about to vanish way and was obsolete? If this temple is for the the future, it flies in the face of scripture. God never says He's going to resurrect the old covenant. (see Hebrews 8:13 below).

4) In Ezekiel's temple, animal sacrifices are performed for the taking way of sin. Chapter 40:38-39 gives a description of some of the instruments uses in animal sacrifice:
[SUP]38 [/SUP]There was a chamber and its entrance by the gateposts of the gateway, where they washed the burnt offering. [SUP]39 [/SUP]In the vestibule of the gateway were two tables on this side and two tables on that side, on which to slay the burnt offering, the sin offering, and the trespass offering.

Chapter 43:18-22 actually tells these animal sacrifice are for atonement, a sin offering, and burnt offerings:
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You shall give a young bull for a sin offering to the priests, the Levites, who are of the seed of Zadok, (btw, does any know who these men are, sure God would, but how do we verify the ones doing the work are the the right sons of Zadok?) who approach Me to minister to Me,’ says the Lord God. [SUP]20 [/SUP]‘You shall take some of its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar, on the four corners of the ledge, and on the rim around it; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it. [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then you shall also take the bull of the sin offering, and burn it in the appointed place of the temple, outside the sanctuary. [SUP]22 [/SUP]On the second day you shall offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering;

To say that animal sacrifices will be performed in the millennium is blasphemous according the writer of Hebrews, not only that but the bible clearly states that God never took pleasure in animal sacrifices or burnt offerings (God did it to shadow the atonement of Jesus upon the Cross). In Hebrews 10:10 the writer says Christ took away the sins of the world once for ALL. There is no need to back to temple, priest and sacrifice. To go back to these things Hewbrews says would be trampling on the blood of Christ (Hewbrews 10:29).

Christ’s Death Fulfills God’s Will

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: (a quote of King David, Palms 40)

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.

7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’”



10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?The author is talking about those people who for some reason go back to the old system of sacrifice.

Hebrews 8:13
13 In that He says, “A newcovenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Most Dispensationalists will try to explain this away by saying these sacrifices are is done just as a memorial to the LORD, such as our LORD's table of communion we do in church. Now where in scripture is it commanded to do these things as a memorial.Conclusion: This temple can not be a future temple of any kind. It can only be applied spiritually and /or to a time before Christ's coming in Jerusalem's history were Old Testament/Covenant practices were in place. The new replaces the old with better promises. Scripture makes this abundantly clear, and also states that God's temple is His Church with Christ as its head, built not with the hands of men (not like Ezekiel's temple, clearly the instructions where give for men to construct) but God Himself.

This post took a long time to construct. I will not reply with questions or comments for a while. Thanks to Steve Gregg for his insightful teaching and dedication to God in discerning the truth of God's holy Word in whom I got most of this material from but I constructed in my own words.
Steve Gregg's website >
http://www.thenarrowpath.com/verse_by_verse.php <
 
May 15, 2013
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#2
The Twin towers was rebuilt, but is it the same dimensions?
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#3
Correction: We ready about the trouble the Israelites had in building from the opposition from their neighbors. Some Jews were ashamed, but not all, perhaps not enough.

I meant: We already read about...



To me, this sounds like the Church age, Christs kingdom on this side of reality (post eternal) and the work God is doing through the Church.

I meant:
pre-eternal.
 
Nov 3, 2014
1,045
5
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#4
The preteristic view of most future prophecy is pretentious, self serving, and false

Ezekiel's vision is all about the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... and His temple

And He will re-arrange the topography for the building [Zechariah 14:9-11]

The preterist has to figure out ways to support their dogma so they attempt to destroy the unfulfilled balance of the projections of the Bible prophets across the board

You will find them doing this when the prophet's vision stands in their face and threatens their man made religion

So goes the rant about Ezekiel 40-48 .... no temple, no millennium, and certainly no "Jews" allowed

Where did this preteristic, kingdom now, dominion theology come from

It started with the early "church fathers" of the RCC

And it is still the same dogma of the RCC today .... along with many other religious movements of various strains .... of which are some that abhor the RCC

When the Lord did not come back soon enough to suit the cfs of the RCC they decided to take the reigns for themselves .... and so the preteristic doctrine was initiated

The claim .... it is the RCC and the religious hierarchy of the same that run the "kingdom" on the earth

And the apostate replacement actions began

The Pope and his kingdom "church" .... in place of the Lord and His coming millennial kingdom

An his church became the "new Israel" .... in place of the Lord's national people

This is why the false teaching of preterism exists today

A totally off road theology .... and very different than biblical Christianity

This dogma is not really different with regard to Jesus Christ, His coming kingdom upon the earth, and Israel than is the monotheistic religion of Islam

Why do both use the same identical strategy for gaining control of the minds of their followers?

Because of the devil himself who holds the same exact ambition .... the father of lies who has infiltrated and works both sides of the street, and at the same time cleverly pits them against each other

Beware of preteristic teaching and do not entertain it where ever it comes from .... it is the dominant dogma held by most of professing Christianity and certainly the hall mark of Islam today

Both tout the same song .... just in a different way
 
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Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#5
Ezekiyl 40:2-4, "In the visions of Yahweh, He brought me into the land of Israyl, and set me upon the greatly exalted mountain; and on it, like a building of a city on the south. When he took me there, then behold, a being; man-like, whose appearance resembled bronze. With a line offlax and a measuring reed in his hand, he stood in the clearing, or opening. Then the being said to me: Son of man, look with your eyes and hear with your ears, and fix your mind upon everything that I show you; for the purpose that I show this to you, were you brought here. Declare all that you see to the house of Israyl."
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#6
The preteristic view of most future prophecy is pretentious, self serving, and false

Ezekiel's vision is all about the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... and His temple

And He will re-arrange the topography for the building [Zechariah 14:9-11]

The preterist has to figure out ways to support their dogma so they attempt to destroy the unfulfilled balance of the projections of the Bible prophets across the board

You will find them doing this when the prophet's vision stands in their face and threatens their man made religion

So goes the rant about Ezekiel 40-48 .... no temple, no millennium, and certainly no "Jews" allowed

Where did this preteristic, kingdom now, dominion theology come from

It started with the early "church fathers" of the RCC

And it is still the same dogma of the RCC today .... along with many other religious movements of various strains .... of which are some that abhor the RCC

When the Lord did not come back soon enough to suit the cfs of the RCC they decided to take the reigns for themselves .... and so the preteristic doctrine was initiated

The claim .... it is the RCC and the religious hierarchy of the same that run the "kingdom" on the earth

And the apostate replacement actions began

The Pope and his kingdom "church" .... in place of the Lord and His coming millennial kingdom

An his church became the "new Israel" .... in place of the Lord's national people

This is why the false teaching of preterism exists today

A totally off road theology .... and very different than biblical Christianity

This dogma is not really different with regard to Jesus Christ, His coming kingdom upon the earth, and Israel than is the monotheistic religion of Islam

Why do both use the same identical strategy for gaining control of the minds of their followers?

Because of the devil himself who holds the same exact ambition .... the father of lies who has infiltrated and works both sides of the street, and at the same time cleverly pits them against each other

Beware of preteristic teaching and do not entertain it where ever it comes from .... it is the dominant dogma held by most of professing Christianity and certainly the hall mark of Islam today

Both tout the same song .... just in a different way
Nice use of scripture...

btw, I don't subscribe to the domination theory, I don't precisely know how the world will end except that the Jesus comes again to bring the Eternal state. The world could be dominantly Christian by our love for each other and unity in the body of Christ per Jesus' words in John 17 in His pray for us. This I believe would be the only way the world gets Christianized. On the other hand, I'm not sure if there could be a war to end all wars, a final battle, which brings in the Eternal state. Paul does mention that Christ must put all his enemies under his feet, and then the resurrection. Thus we have two scenarios, a peaceful one and a not so peaceful one when Christ returns.
Jesus Prays for All Believers

20 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will[e] believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.

I'm so glad for you Straightshooter, you've got it all figured out. I guess we should all give you hand and applause...

Maybe when you learn to address my points, point by point with scripture, instead of bashing me and those who don't think like you, we could have an intelligent friendly debate.
 
Nov 3, 2014
1,045
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#7
"I'm so glad for you Straightshooter, you've got it all figured out"


Easy to understand .... for those who study and stick to the Lord's Word

You should try it

I post my view of a subject on the forum and you say "bashing"

Strange .... wonder why?

Most people react the way you do because they actually lack confidence in their standing

Your preterism is not a good thing for you in my opinion, but that is a different matter .... for you

When I see a topic on this forum and feel that it is a significant one for others to know about, I will respond .... and with necessary explanations .... your view of Ezekiel 40-48 is un-biblical and people need to know why

...... I really do not care who the poster is son .... just so you know
 
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Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#8
"I'm so glad for you Straightshooter, you've got it all figured out"


Easy to understand .... for those who study and stick to the Lord's Word

You should try it

I post my view of a subject on the forum and you say "bashing"

Strange .... wonder why?

Most people react the way you do because they actually lack confidence in their standing

Your preterism is not a good thing for you in my opinion, but that is a different matter .... for you

When I see a topic on this forum and feel that it is a significant one for others to know about, I will respond .... and with necessary explanations .... your view of Ezekiel 40-48 is un-biblical and people need to know why

...... I really do not care who the poster is son .... just so you know
There is a big difference from disagreeing from someones eschatology and calling them cultic, racist, and assigning labels to them that aren't true.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#9
"I'm so glad for you Straightshooter, you've got it all figured out"


Easy to understand .... for those who study and stick to the Lord's Word

You should try it

I post my view of a subject on the forum and you say "bashing"

Strange .... wonder why?

Most people react the way you do because they actually lack confidence in their standing

Your preterism is not a good thing for you in my opinion, but that is a different matter .... for you

When I see a topic on this forum and feel that it is a significant one for others to know about, I will respond .... and with necessary explanations .... your view of Ezekiel 40-48 is un-biblical and people need to know why

...... I really do not care who the poster is son .... just so you know
The lets here it, back up what you say with biblical evidence. So far, I haven't seen it.

PS. I am not your son...but if it makes you feel superior to me then I guess I can live with it.

You really lack respect for other people, and you sow discord among brethren...You know God hates that, don't you?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#11
The twin towers were not rebuilt, they built the freedom tower there where they were.

"void" at ground zero, these people are creeps.


"Reflecting Absence," Manhattan's 9/11 memorial, features two "voids" in the footprints of the old Twin Towers.
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
895
18
18
#12
The preteristic view of most future prophecy is pretentious, self serving, and false

Ezekiel's vision is all about the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth .... and His temple

And He will re-arrange the topography for the building [Zechariah 14:9-11]

The preterist has to figure out ways to support their dogma so they attempt to destroy the unfulfilled balance of the projections of the Bible prophets across the board

You will find them doing this when the prophet's vision stands in their face and threatens their man made religion

So goes the rant about Ezekiel 40-48 .... no temple, no millennium, and certainly no "Jews" allowed

Where did this preteristic, kingdom now, dominion theology come from

It started with the early "church fathers" of the RCC

And it is still the same dogma of the RCC today .... along with many other religious movements of various strains .... of which are some that abhor the RCC

When the Lord did not come back soon enough to suit the cfs of the RCC they decided to take the reigns for themselves .... and so the preteristic doctrine was initiated

The claim .... it is the RCC and the religious hierarchy of the same that run the "kingdom" on the earth

And the apostate replacement actions began

The Pope and his kingdom "church" .... in place of the Lord and His coming millennial kingdom

An his church became the "new Israel" .... in place of the Lord's national people

This is why the false teaching of preterism exists today

A totally off road theology .... and very different than biblical Christianity

This dogma is not really different with regard to Jesus Christ, His coming kingdom upon the earth, and Israel than is the monotheistic religion of Islam

Why do both use the same identical strategy for gaining control of the minds of their followers?

Because of the devil himself who holds the same exact ambition .... the father of lies who has infiltrated and works both sides of the street, and at the same time cleverly pits them against each other

Beware of preteristic teaching and do not entertain it where ever it comes from .... it is the dominant dogma held by most of professing Christianity and certainly the hall mark of Islam today

Both tout the same song .... just in a different way
So preterists are self serving, pretentious, ranting, totally off the road, prophet destroying, mind controlling, devil infiltrated, apostate, Roman Catholic, Muslims? I didn't know so many ad hominems could be crammed into such a short space.
 
J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#14
Rule #1 of the allegorical school of hermeneutics, "If I don't understand it, it's symbolic."
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#15
Rule #1 of the allegorical school of hermeneutics, "If I don't understand it, it's symbolic."
I love it.. People would rather come in tear down one's belief structure and criticize it or the person and give no explanation or constructive criticism.

What does that tell me? They'd rather hold on to their belief systems even when solid biblical reasonable presentations are given that jeopardizes their system.

Really good comment JesusIsAll! I suppose nothing is symbolic in your hermeneutics. I suppose the Land of Canaan was literally flowing and drip what milk and honey...
 
Nov 3, 2014
1,045
5
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#16
Typical preterist debating tactic above

The evaluation of those who play the allegorical [figurative] card is the hallmark of preterism

You just happen to be one who uses it

There are symbols in prophetic scripture ..... but always explained literally either in the passage or in another related
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
#17
Typical preterist debating tactic above

The evaluation of those who play the allegorical [figurative] card is the hallmark of preterism

You just happen to be one who uses it

There are symbols in prophetic scripture ..... but always explained literally either in the passage or in another related
same ol response....blah blah blah.


 
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J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#18
I love it.. People would rather come in tear down one's belief structure and criticize it or the person and give no explanation or constructive criticism.

What does that tell me? They'd rather hold on to their belief systems even when solid biblical reasonable presentations are given that jeopardizes their system.

Really good comment JesusIsAll! I suppose nothing is symbolic in your hermeneutics. I suppose the Land of Canaan was literally flowing and drip what milk and honey...
I don't know what you expect. Out of the gate, you state the Bible isn't saying what it says. We aren't reading the same Bible. So what's to discuss? You've already stated anything I would present is contrary to your very thinking. I believe you should seek a discussion with somebody who also likes symbols, replacement theology, Preterism stuff. Frankly, and I don't mean to sound harsh, but just being honest, I don't relate to any of that and it bores me. Sorry, but the Bible I know isn't Nostradamus. Maybe you could have a rousing discussion with a Catholic? They go in for allegorizing everything, believe the Jews don't exist anymore in God's eyes, etc. You could probably swap symbols until one of you is planted.
 
Nov 3, 2014
1,045
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#19
"same ol response....blah blah blah"


You are in dire need of some blah son