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I'm going to do this one last time, and then I'm through with you, because I know it won't have any effect whatsoever on your bad theology.
It is abundantly clear form Scripture – properly exegeted Scripture – that a Christian cannot lose his/her salvation. First, there are Jesus’ own words:
That Jesus always does the will of the Father is firmly established. If Jesus “always does the will of the Father” and, as established firmly in John 6:39, that “the will of the Father is that Jesus lose none and also raise all those to glory who had been given to Him by the Father,” then salvation cannot be lost. Otherwise, Jesus sinned by failing to do the will of the Father.
Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, in God’s word is it written that is the Father’s will that Christians not lose their own salvation of their "own free will." It is written only that it is the will of the Father that Jesus lose none given Him. If someone loses his salvation, then Jesus failed to do the will of the Father because it would mean He has lost some and that He will also fail to raise up to glory those who have been given to him by the Father. This is the “truth” you preach, and it simply cannot be.
Essentially, you claim that the will of the Father is that people not sin but they do, so the will of the Father is not always done. In this respect, that is true. However, the verses deal with the will of the Father for Jesus, not for us. That is the connection you constantly fail to make.
In addition to the two verses above, which are extremely powerful, consider the following:
Note that John says those who claim Christ but continue in sin were never “of us” – never saved. You cannot lose something you never had.
Is eternal security a “license to sin”? As Paul said, “May it never be!”
This is one your favorite accusations against the rest of us, and it wears tiresome and thin. The problem with this accusation is that it ignores God's active regeneration in us. In other words, critics such as yourself of security in Christ routinely ignore the fact that God changes the sinner. He makes us born again and we are made new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17). You treat salvation as nothing more than a turning point in our own life that depends on our work, our strength, our resolve. You’re completely and totally wrong!
As new creatures, we have God living in us (John 14:23); and, therefore, we cannot “abide in sin”:
So, the teaching that we cannot lose our salvation is not a license to sin.
Now let’s deal with The danger of keeping salvation by doing works, your favorite false doctrine
Whether or not you can lose your salvation is important because if someone believes he can lose his salvation, then he might fall into the error of trying to keep his salvation by what he does or does not do. This is a serious heresy.
In in other words, if a person can lose his salvation then what list of things must he do and not do in order to keep it? If there is such a list, then the person is guilty of achieving salvation by keeping the law. But this contradicts Romans 3:28 and Romans 4:1-5. Which is just the beginning of your problems with this false doctrine you teach
The proper understanding of salvation is that works play no part in it.
It is a free gift.
It is received by faith.
Once we are saved, we are to live a holy life.
Fortunately for you, believing you can or cannot lose your salvation does not affect your salvation. That is, your salvation is dependent upon accepting Jesus as Savior, trusting in His sin sacrifice, and looking to no one and nothing else. Fortunately, your salvation isn't dependent upon whether or not you think it is possible to lose your salvation.
It demands careful attention to study, something I'm afraid those who cling to the "lost salvation" concept utterly fail to do properly.
The important point is that you have studied the Word of God and are convinced in your own mind of what you believe (Romans 14:5). You are the one who has to answer to God (Romans 3:19). You are the one who needs to study to show yourself approved (2 Timothy 2:15).
There are, on the surface, verses used for both sides of the argument. There are verses that seem to suggest that it is possible to lose your salvation: 2 Peter 2:1; Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26; Psalm 69:28, just to name a few – some of which I’m sure you’ve never thought of. There are also verses that seem to say you cannot lose your salvation: John 10:27, 28; Hebrews 13:5; Matthew. 7:21-23; 1 John 2:19; Romans 8:38, 39. But if there are verses used to support both sides, then is there a contradiction in the Word of God? Of course not. There can be no contradiction in the inspired Word of God -- only in our uninspired misunderstanding.
It is my firm belief that it is not possible to lose one's salvation. I base this on Scriptures I’ve cited at the beginning of this post and others that seem to have a more "eternal" perspective on them. For example, on the day of judgment when some seek salvation based upon their works, Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you"; (Matthew 7:21-23). They were never known. That is, they were never saved although they appeared from the human perspective to be saved. Are you willing to bet your eternity on the possibility you would be one of those turned away?
Jesus says that His sheep will "never perish but have eternal life." (John 10:28). How can eternal life be eternal if it can be lost, particularly when Jesus said they will never perish? If they will never perish, then they can't lose their salvation. Also, Paul says that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God (Romans 8:38, 39 – my signature verse on this forum). I see these "divine perspective" type verses as giving us glimpses into the viewpoint of God. I see the other verses as being stated from a human perspective – that they appeared to be saved and then appeared to lose it (Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 6:4-6). However, in returning to 1 John 2:19, it clearly says, in regards to dealing with antichrists, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."
This verse is saying two things: First, it appears false teachers leave because they are not regenerated to begin with. In other words, if someone had salvation and then lost it, it was because they never were saved in the first place. Second, it says that if someone is saved, he will remain in the faith. If you believe you can leave the faith, then what does that say about the state of your “salvation”?
It simply is not possible at all to lose your salvation –Jesus has redeemed you and you are a new creation.
You cannot, then, turn your back on God. Since attaining salvation did not depend on anything you did, keeping it does not depend on anything you do. Then also, losing it can't occur because of anything you do. Unfortunately, this topic has caused far too much friction in the church today. My hope is that people who disagree can learn to live harmoniously with their eyes on Jesus.
And with that, my brother, I leave you alone to your false doctrine, praying that God opens your eyes and reveals His truth to you. God bless.
It is abundantly clear form Scripture – properly exegeted Scripture – that a Christian cannot lose his/her salvation. First, there are Jesus’ own words:
John 8, NASB
29 "And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him."
John 6
39 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."
39 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."
That Jesus always does the will of the Father is firmly established. If Jesus “always does the will of the Father” and, as established firmly in John 6:39, that “the will of the Father is that Jesus lose none and also raise all those to glory who had been given to Him by the Father,” then salvation cannot be lost. Otherwise, Jesus sinned by failing to do the will of the Father.
Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, in God’s word is it written that is the Father’s will that Christians not lose their own salvation of their "own free will." It is written only that it is the will of the Father that Jesus lose none given Him. If someone loses his salvation, then Jesus failed to do the will of the Father because it would mean He has lost some and that He will also fail to raise up to glory those who have been given to him by the Father. This is the “truth” you preach, and it simply cannot be.
Essentially, you claim that the will of the Father is that people not sin but they do, so the will of the Father is not always done. In this respect, that is true. However, the verses deal with the will of the Father for Jesus, not for us. That is the connection you constantly fail to make.
In addition to the two verses above, which are extremely powerful, consider the following:
John 3
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 10
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
1 John 2
19 "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 10
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
1 John 2
19 "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."
Note that John says those who claim Christ but continue in sin were never “of us” – never saved. You cannot lose something you never had.
Is eternal security a “license to sin”? As Paul said, “May it never be!”
This is one your favorite accusations against the rest of us, and it wears tiresome and thin. The problem with this accusation is that it ignores God's active regeneration in us. In other words, critics such as yourself of security in Christ routinely ignore the fact that God changes the sinner. He makes us born again and we are made new creatures (2 Corinthians 5:17). You treat salvation as nothing more than a turning point in our own life that depends on our work, our strength, our resolve. You’re completely and totally wrong!
As new creatures, we have God living in us (John 14:23); and, therefore, we cannot “abide in sin”:
1 John 3
9 "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God,"
9 "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God,"
So, the teaching that we cannot lose our salvation is not a license to sin.
Now let’s deal with The danger of keeping salvation by doing works, your favorite false doctrine
Whether or not you can lose your salvation is important because if someone believes he can lose his salvation, then he might fall into the error of trying to keep his salvation by what he does or does not do. This is a serious heresy.
Galatians 3
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
In in other words, if a person can lose his salvation then what list of things must he do and not do in order to keep it? If there is such a list, then the person is guilty of achieving salvation by keeping the law. But this contradicts Romans 3:28 and Romans 4:1-5. Which is just the beginning of your problems with this false doctrine you teach
The proper understanding of salvation is that works play no part in it.
Roman 4
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
It is a free gift.
Romans 6
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
It is received by faith.
Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Once we are saved, we are to live a holy life.
1 Thessalonians 4
7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
7 For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.
Fortunately for you, believing you can or cannot lose your salvation does not affect your salvation. That is, your salvation is dependent upon accepting Jesus as Savior, trusting in His sin sacrifice, and looking to no one and nothing else. Fortunately, your salvation isn't dependent upon whether or not you think it is possible to lose your salvation.
It demands careful attention to study, something I'm afraid those who cling to the "lost salvation" concept utterly fail to do properly.
The important point is that you have studied the Word of God and are convinced in your own mind of what you believe (Romans 14:5). You are the one who has to answer to God (Romans 3:19). You are the one who needs to study to show yourself approved (2 Timothy 2:15).
There are, on the surface, verses used for both sides of the argument. There are verses that seem to suggest that it is possible to lose your salvation: 2 Peter 2:1; Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26; Psalm 69:28, just to name a few – some of which I’m sure you’ve never thought of. There are also verses that seem to say you cannot lose your salvation: John 10:27, 28; Hebrews 13:5; Matthew. 7:21-23; 1 John 2:19; Romans 8:38, 39. But if there are verses used to support both sides, then is there a contradiction in the Word of God? Of course not. There can be no contradiction in the inspired Word of God -- only in our uninspired misunderstanding.
It is my firm belief that it is not possible to lose one's salvation. I base this on Scriptures I’ve cited at the beginning of this post and others that seem to have a more "eternal" perspective on them. For example, on the day of judgment when some seek salvation based upon their works, Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you"; (Matthew 7:21-23). They were never known. That is, they were never saved although they appeared from the human perspective to be saved. Are you willing to bet your eternity on the possibility you would be one of those turned away?
Jesus says that His sheep will "never perish but have eternal life." (John 10:28). How can eternal life be eternal if it can be lost, particularly when Jesus said they will never perish? If they will never perish, then they can't lose their salvation. Also, Paul says that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God (Romans 8:38, 39 – my signature verse on this forum). I see these "divine perspective" type verses as giving us glimpses into the viewpoint of God. I see the other verses as being stated from a human perspective – that they appeared to be saved and then appeared to lose it (Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 6:4-6). However, in returning to 1 John 2:19, it clearly says, in regards to dealing with antichrists, "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."
This verse is saying two things: First, it appears false teachers leave because they are not regenerated to begin with. In other words, if someone had salvation and then lost it, it was because they never were saved in the first place. Second, it says that if someone is saved, he will remain in the faith. If you believe you can leave the faith, then what does that say about the state of your “salvation”?
It simply is not possible at all to lose your salvation –Jesus has redeemed you and you are a new creation.
2 Corinthians 5
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
You cannot, then, turn your back on God. Since attaining salvation did not depend on anything you did, keeping it does not depend on anything you do. Then also, losing it can't occur because of anything you do. Unfortunately, this topic has caused far too much friction in the church today. My hope is that people who disagree can learn to live harmoniously with their eyes on Jesus.
And with that, my brother, I leave you alone to your false doctrine, praying that God opens your eyes and reveals His truth to you. God bless.
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E
why would you want to make paul contradict himself Ken? did you read eph 1 at all? or how about the first part of romans?
they do not say what you are now claiming.
we need to contend in the faith if our faith is wishy washy (not real) many people claim to have it, but have not yet reached it.
and why do you continue to say the thing about wilful sin? can a born again believer sin willfully? can any person sin unwillfully?
why do you excuse your sin Ken?
they do not say what you are now claiming.
we need to contend in the faith if our faith is wishy washy (not real) many people claim to have it, but have not yet reached it.
and why do you continue to say the thing about wilful sin? can a born again believer sin willfully? can any person sin unwillfully?
why do you excuse your sin Ken?
How can those of us who have received the dawning of the Holy Spirit in our hearts ever have a dead faith? You assume in great error that those of us who have the Holy Spirit indwelling in us like fountains of living water have a "dead,inactive,non-producing and disobedient to His teachings faith" Who has deceived you?
Salvation can not be lost!
Jn 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV
If I have eternal life now then if I loose it, it wasn't eternal when I had it. Since eternal life is inseparably linked to salvation, if I can't loose eternal life, I can't loose salvation.
Jn 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
KJV
I am a man therefore I cannot pluck myself out of his hand either.
The word Lord means owner as clearly seen in the word 'landlord'.
When I accepted Jesus as Lord I accepted the fact that He had purchased me with His blood. Once a purchase is transacted that which is bought can not reverse the transaction.
Jn 5:24
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
KJV
If I have eternal life now then if I loose it, it wasn't eternal when I had it. Since eternal life is inseparably linked to salvation, if I can't loose eternal life, I can't loose salvation.
Jn 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
KJV
I am a man therefore I cannot pluck myself out of his hand either.
The word Lord means owner as clearly seen in the word 'landlord'.
When I accepted Jesus as Lord I accepted the fact that He had purchased me with His blood. Once a purchase is transacted that which is bought can not reverse the transaction.
and that He may be glorified and that all men should be humbled, not one of these three can be done apart from Him:
Come to Him:
Hear what He says:
Do what He said:
even Christ as our example did not boast of His own works:
who are we without God? what can we add to Him, as though He is lacking something?
even as the apostles taught us to work obediently, they taught also that it was not from ourselves, but God working in us, that the Father's work is done:
if anyone thinks they receive grace by earning it through their own work, or that this means we "do nothing," i have the strong impression that they do not understand what it is to have been saved.
Come to Him:
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them
(John 6:44)
(John 6:44)
Hear what He says:
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
(Romans 9:18)
(Romans 9:18)
Do what He said:
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
(Hebrews 13:20)
(Hebrews 13:20)
even Christ as our example did not boast of His own works:
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
(John 14:10)
(John 14:10)
who are we without God? what can we add to Him, as though He is lacking something?
even as the apostles taught us to work obediently, they taught also that it was not from ourselves, but God working in us, that the Father's work is done:
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
(Philippians 2:12-13)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(Galatians 2:20)
(Philippians 2:12-13)
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(Galatians 2:20)
if anyone thinks they receive grace by earning it through their own work, or that this means we "do nothing," i have the strong impression that they do not understand what it is to have been saved.
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Kenneth,
You are correct that works are important to the Christian walk; but not to salvation. Both Ep 2:10 and the first chapter of James make it clear that saving faith will produce works in the believer. It seems to me that you are trying to link the works produced by the indwelling Holy Spirit with the steps to salvation; but they do NOT link.
You are correct that works are important to the Christian walk; but not to salvation. Both Ep 2:10 and the first chapter of James make it clear that saving faith will produce works in the believer. It seems to me that you are trying to link the works produced by the indwelling Holy Spirit with the steps to salvation; but they do NOT link.
isn't it interesting that when someone says "it is good to praise the Lord on an instrument of ten strings" -- you say until you are blue in the face that unless the new testament epistles specifically spell it out and say it, it is forbidden to add to the scripture (even though this is written in the scripture!)
.. but when it is pointed out to you that Jesus publicly, openly and freely forgave a man without requiring him to do all these works, but simply because of his faith -- you are more than ready to "add to the scripture" all these assumptions that are simply not in the text at all?
a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.
.. but when it is pointed out to you that Jesus publicly, openly and freely forgave a man without requiring him to do all these works, but simply because of his faith -- you are more than ready to "add to the scripture" all these assumptions that are simply not in the text at all?
a double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.
they weren't "commanded" -- i.i.r.c. Simon said something to the effect of "who can forbid water now??" as though something much greater than the physical symbol of belonging to the group of believers had taken place.
i know that the Holy Spirit is called the seal and down-payment of our salvation --
at least Peter, it seems, had been convinced and accepted the sign that the Father Himself had given, and allowed them to perform what had become the enrolling ceremony of joining the church. i will also accept the work of God for what it is.
i know that the Holy Spirit is called the seal and down-payment of our salvation --
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
(Ephesians 1:13-14)
but i do not know of where having damp hair is called evidence of being redeemed by God .. ? (Ephesians 1:13-14)
at least Peter, it seems, had been convinced and accepted the sign that the Father Himself had given, and allowed them to perform what had become the enrolling ceremony of joining the church. i will also accept the work of God for what it is.
Interesting quote from 1 Peter 3:21. I had not seen it put that way. Of course, KJV is a bit beyond me, since I don't speak that kind of English.
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the pledge[SUP][a][/SUP] of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 3:21 HCSB
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 3:21 ESV
"ὃ καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, δι’ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ," 1 Peter 3:21 Greek.
The word "ἀντίτυπον" or antitupon, according to Bauer and Danke, in their Greek Lexicon, means "That which corresponds to."
It is a compressed statement, with rescue through water being the dominate them, for example the salvation of Noah and his family via water, thus serving as a model, or pattern; form, figure, pattern. Looking in context, verses 20 refers to Noah, which confirms this is the correct use of the word.
So baptism corresponds to the model of Noah's ark, in which the ark was in water, but the 8 people in the ark were not literally or bodily immersed or dipped.
Another way of saying it would be;
"and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," 1 Peter 3:21 NIV
While I do agree that baptism is a necessary step in our walk with Christ, it is clear in the Greek that this verse is NOT saying baptism saves us, but rather it is a symbol of our pledge to God of a clear conscience.
So why do we have this clear conscience? Well the end of the verse is clear!
"It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," 1 Peter 3:21c
Thus it is a symbol we go through to meaningfully acknowledge the way we are saved - not of our own works, but because of the power of the resurrection of Jesus.
There is no doubt this is a tricky or problem passage, if you take it out of context. The context in which Peter writes is that we need to trust Christ, who:
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit" 1 Peter 3:18 ESV
You simply cannot pull verse 21 out of context, that is, that Christ suffered for our sins, to bring us to God!
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the pledge[SUP][a][/SUP] of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 3:21 HCSB
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 3:21 ESV
"ὃ καὶ ὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, δι’ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ," 1 Peter 3:21 Greek.
The word "ἀντίτυπον" or antitupon, according to Bauer and Danke, in their Greek Lexicon, means "That which corresponds to."
It is a compressed statement, with rescue through water being the dominate them, for example the salvation of Noah and his family via water, thus serving as a model, or pattern; form, figure, pattern. Looking in context, verses 20 refers to Noah, which confirms this is the correct use of the word.
So baptism corresponds to the model of Noah's ark, in which the ark was in water, but the 8 people in the ark were not literally or bodily immersed or dipped.
Another way of saying it would be;
"and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," 1 Peter 3:21 NIV
While I do agree that baptism is a necessary step in our walk with Christ, it is clear in the Greek that this verse is NOT saying baptism saves us, but rather it is a symbol of our pledge to God of a clear conscience.
So why do we have this clear conscience? Well the end of the verse is clear!
"It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ," 1 Peter 3:21c
Thus it is a symbol we go through to meaningfully acknowledge the way we are saved - not of our own works, but because of the power of the resurrection of Jesus.
There is no doubt this is a tricky or problem passage, if you take it out of context. The context in which Peter writes is that we need to trust Christ, who:
"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit" 1 Peter 3:18 ESV
You simply cannot pull verse 21 out of context, that is, that Christ suffered for our sins, to bring us to God!
O
post,
baptism, it is a 'personal' statement of OBEDIENCE and of dying WITH our Christ -
of course baptism of the Holy Spirit is the REAL MEAT!
but, the OUTWARD submission of 'getting-wet', it is the TESTIMONY through the
'APPOINTED RITUAL'. - (we KNOW it ain't the 'getting wet', it is the POURING-OUT
of the Holy Spirit from up above) and our Father holds the cup....
baptism, it is a 'personal' statement of OBEDIENCE and of dying WITH our Christ -
of course baptism of the Holy Spirit is the REAL MEAT!
but, the OUTWARD submission of 'getting-wet', it is the TESTIMONY through the
'APPOINTED RITUAL'. - (we KNOW it ain't the 'getting wet', it is the POURING-OUT
of the Holy Spirit from up above) and our Father holds the cup....
yes & amen
i'm not trying to say we shouldn't be water baptized at all.
mostly here, i was responding to the idea that God's pouring out of the spirit on the people at Cornelius's house in Acts 10 wasn't sufficient evidence that they were saved. to me that seems like disbelieving God's own clear evidence, and also to me it seems that holding up baptism in water as the keystone of salvation and redemption is forgetting Christ, or putting an obedient thing we do ahead of the thing that God does -- salvation is God's work, not ours!
I have given the Greek text as it appears with a translation of each word beneath each Greek word:
Ηό καί ὐμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει
Which also us corresponding now saves
likewise
βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀποθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλα συνειδήσως ἀγαθῆς
baptism not of the flesh putting away filth but of a conscience good
the word which, which is the first word in the verse can only refer to the ark in the previous verse.
Ηό καί ὐμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦν σῴζει
Which also us corresponding now saves
likewise
βάπτισμα οὐ σαρκὸς ἀποθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλα συνειδήσως ἀγαθῆς
baptism not of the flesh putting away filth but of a conscience good
the word which, which is the first word in the verse can only refer to the ark in the previous verse.
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