Hebrews 4:9 and the Real "Sabbath" - Jesus

[sparkman]

MarcR,

Yes..I want to make it clear that I am not against people such as yourself who keep the Sabbath and the Holy Days without implying that they are required or conditions of salvation, or are a necessary fruit of salvation. Such individuals are not Judaizers. In fact, if there was such a church that held doctrinal positions similar to my own, I would not mind attending such a fellowship. I am perfectly content at my Evangelical Free church though.

Armstrongites and many Hebrew Roots people do not share your attitude though.

I see the appointed times of Lv 23 as times that God has set for His people to fellowship with him. I do not believe that they should be imposed on anyone; nor do I believe that observance needs to include corporate worship.

I see the appointed times, including the Sabbath, as figures and illustrations of various aspects of Jesus' earthly ministry. While I find great benefit in observing these times; I do not believe that observing them or failing to observe them has any effect on anyone's salvation.

 

[prove-all]

So, prove-all, I have two questions:

1. If you claim these verses prove that one must keep the Sabbath, do you also believe that a Christian must practice physical
circumcision and animal sacrifices? Those things were in effect when Christ uttered these words.

2. Do you deny the salvation of those who do not keep the Sabbath? Can a person who never keeps the Sabbath be in
the resurrection? Suppose he becomes a Christian at age 30, and dies at age 80, and never keeps the Sabbath?

I think I've mentioned that I was part of Worldwide Church of God and they taught that non-Sabbathkeepers were unsaved because they were still in their sins and in disobedience to God. Would you hold that view as well? Please don't evade the question.
.

I can not undo circumcision done to me, just like my son can not undo his,
I believe it has health benifits so I did his, even before I read it in the bible.

-But I believe you must now have the circumcise of the heart.

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands,
in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

And the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed,
to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.​

1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing,
but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.


-24And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new [testament], which is shed for many.


-Jesus changed the simbles , not the passover holy day occurance.
still only happened once a year, no more sacrifices required, he is our priest.

1 Corinthians 5:7 (KJV)
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened.

For even [Christ] our passover is [sacrificed] for us:

Therefore let us [keep the feast],

-tells use to keep [a feast], then he goes on to say how to keep it

not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness;
but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and [truth].


-deciples keep [feast] after Christs death
Acts 12:3,Acts 20:6


-no bible says we are not [required] to do animal sacrifices now, but....

1 Peter 2:5 (KJV)
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood,
to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Romans 12:1 (KJV)
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,
that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,
which is your reasonable service.

..do you have a good sacrifice holy, acceptable unto God,
at the same time you contine proffaning what God has made Holy forever.

I believe the Sabbath is a blessing and a sign or badge and also
I think you have mentioned slandering youre past church alot.

 

[prove-all]

When did Christ fulfill the Law?He fulfilled the Law, as well as the prophecies concerning him, at the Cross:

Christ fulfilled all God gave him to do on the first trip, and that task was finished,

so you say all prophecies fulfilled by Jesus nothing left?
so nothing concerning about his second comming, 1000 year rein,
so there is no day of the lord to come, no tribulation,
so nothing wrighten about satan being locked up, thats done?

all those prophecies concerning his second comming have not been fulfilled.

The second coming is in actuality a continuation of the first coming. From Christ's own words...

Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias.
And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel
to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives,
and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down.
And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

He stop reading just there, close the book, and sit down?

Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach
good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Isa 61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,

And here is where He stopped reading in mid sentence.
Now the passage He quoted continues...

and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Isa 61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy
for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees
of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

Isa 61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations,
and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.

Isa 61:5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be y
our plowmen and your vinedressers.

Isa 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God:
ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

Isa 61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion:
therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.

He came the first time to complete Isa 61:1-2 but not all of verse 2.
When He returns, He will complete verse 2 and forward through verse 7.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

he will smash the statue of mans kingdom rule, recorded in Daniel thats not fulfilled.
to claim all the prophets prophency about Jesus are fulfilled is a lie.

 

[prove-all]

Matt 5:17, then the Law doesn’t apply to anyone today, although it did apply to the individuals he was speaking to…the Jews of his time.They were under the Old Covenant, and New Covenant Christians are not.

you would be in error claiming Jesus was talking to the o.t. jews.

he was talking to his deciples, about his future kingdom on earth.
he was not speaking about the past covenent and the jews.
Jesus told the multitudes in parables, the deciples he spoke plain words.


1And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set,
his disciples came unto him:

2And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.



He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive
for himself a kingdom, .................................................. and to return.

-which by the way is not fulfilled yet .

 

[Biblelogic01]

On any day of the week? That wouldn't be keeping it as prescribed by the law.
But you wouldn't want to 'keep it' that way anyways otherwise you'd be obligated to keep the WHOLE LAW.

Galatians 5:3 (KJV) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

James 2:10 (KJV) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Read what I said, don't twist it.
I said it's not wrong to gather and worship on sunday, and that you can worship any day of the week.
I was also stating I do believe the Sabbath Day is the 7th day of the week, and it should be observed as such, but it's not a means of salvation.
The disciples met on other days of the week to dicuss scripture and worship God, and the did call these sabbaths, but those are not The Sabbath.
And last I checked meeting on other days of the week to worship God is not against Torah (the Law).
Next time you try to twist something be sure you clearly read what is being stated.

 

[sparkman]

One additional comment I would make is that the Sabbath-rest that remains for the people of God could be a reference to the unsaved Jews who have yet to enter into the rest of faith that true believers have entered into. This assumes that "people of God" refers to the unsaved Jews. Either way, the previous explanation I gave is solid.

True believers have entered into the rest of faith in Jesus Christ. The unsaved Jews have some future eschatological fulfillment of the promises to them based on Romans 11, and that is the "rest" that they will experience.

At any rate, the view of Sabbathkeepers that this is a simple proof text for Sabbathkeeping ignores the aforementioned context of the whole book of Hebrews.