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"Sure a gift, but costly if you can't afford it." In my analogy I didn't deny it was a gift, however I did address the dilemma one is put into when the gift isn't able to be kept. Tell me, what good is it to give a million dollar home to a homeless man who can't pay the property taxes or mortgage (he doesn't have a job)? Its useless, there is no security or assurance given. It was but a false hope. Can the same be said of God's plan of reconciliation?
I understand what you're saying, about upkeep. If I give you a computer it is your responsibility to maintain it to be in mint condition. However, eternal salvation by definition is eternal. You're proposing that God has only given man the opportunity/possibility for eternal life granted they fulfill some unspecified requirements. In other words, conditional. As far as I am aware, the Gospel is simply to believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins and has risen on the third day in order that I may reconcile to God. Any other requirement beyond faith seems to err along the lines of self-righteousness.
Even into eternity my security does not depend upon myself, for even then Christ is still my High Priest (ever interceding on my behalf). You see, I have peace. I rest in Jesus. There is no fear in love, it casts it out. Does God love you? Did Christ die on the cross for you? Then don't fear, you're secure. God is your Father cradling you with an eternal embrace. You are His son by the Spirit of Adoption. You have nothing to worry about, just rest.
I understand what you're saying, about upkeep. If I give you a computer it is your responsibility to maintain it to be in mint condition. However, eternal salvation by definition is eternal. You're proposing that God has only given man the opportunity/possibility for eternal life granted they fulfill some unspecified requirements. In other words, conditional. As far as I am aware, the Gospel is simply to believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins and has risen on the third day in order that I may reconcile to God. Any other requirement beyond faith seems to err along the lines of self-righteousness.
Even into eternity my security does not depend upon myself, for even then Christ is still my High Priest (ever interceding on my behalf). You see, I have peace. I rest in Jesus. There is no fear in love, it casts it out. Does God love you? Did Christ die on the cross for you? Then don't fear, you're secure. God is your Father cradling you with an eternal embrace. You are His son by the Spirit of Adoption. You have nothing to worry about, just rest.
Adam would have been able to keep eating from the tree of life and live forever if he hadn't sinned. Do you really think that if you stop eating from the tree of eternal life because of sin you will live forever?
You folks sound so much like the gnostics who thought that they had been born with a spiritual seed that could not be corrupted no matter what they did. Yet the parable of the 10 virgins shows that eternal life can be quenched.
You folks sound so much like the gnostics who thought that they had been born with a spiritual seed that could not be corrupted no matter what they did. Yet the parable of the 10 virgins shows that eternal life can be quenched.
Anyone found obeying John 14:22-24 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
shall be saved.
Jesus made it very simple with his earliest sermon. Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
There is no other way to eternal life. That way must be held dear in us to our last day. Supreme absurdity is to trust in one's own interpretation of that, embracing it a while, then abandoning the way. Some do it. Whether they ever really repented and or believed isn't a question addressed by scriptures. Living out a life omitting God's requirements will be evidence a person didn't value the way of Christ, though held some lesser belief. Judas was called to apostleship, was sent out, ministered side by side with the other 11, took part in miracles, then cast it all away. He heard all of Jesus' preaching, witnessed the life of Jesus day by day following him, then rejected it all. Matthew 26:24-25 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
None will enter in by their own concepts of the truth and the way of Christ. So it is that one is likely to "lose" a salvation based on untruth, which is very easily discarded for a very low price.
Our salvation isn't based on our sinlessness. It is based on our position in Christ, righteousness by faith believing the gospel, not opposing or betraying it.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
shall be saved.
Jesus made it very simple with his earliest sermon. Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
There is no other way to eternal life. That way must be held dear in us to our last day. Supreme absurdity is to trust in one's own interpretation of that, embracing it a while, then abandoning the way. Some do it. Whether they ever really repented and or believed isn't a question addressed by scriptures. Living out a life omitting God's requirements will be evidence a person didn't value the way of Christ, though held some lesser belief. Judas was called to apostleship, was sent out, ministered side by side with the other 11, took part in miracles, then cast it all away. He heard all of Jesus' preaching, witnessed the life of Jesus day by day following him, then rejected it all. Matthew 26:24-25 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
None will enter in by their own concepts of the truth and the way of Christ. So it is that one is likely to "lose" a salvation based on untruth, which is very easily discarded for a very low price.
Our salvation isn't based on our sinlessness. It is based on our position in Christ, righteousness by faith believing the gospel, not opposing or betraying it.
I love what you share, and maybe the following is apples to oranges, but some people worship the Enemy, and it causes me to wonder why they would do such a thing, yet some people do. Maybe its the same for those who renounce their salvation; they're renouncing their faith in Jesus. Then again, it still poses the question, are such people saved anyway? There is a difference between losing something and throwing it away.
See. I told you.
For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, [the gnostics] maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which [the gnostics] mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged.
For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, [the gnostics] maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which [the gnostics] mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged.
Why is it so hard for people to accept ALL of what the Bible says?
As I so eloquently showed in post 55, salvation and apostasy are not gained by works but by belief/disbelief, and that belief /disbelief are not counted as acts of works. Again, lost is the wrong term you cannot lose it. But you can give it away.
With backsliding, you still believe, you just don't walk the walk. You are still saved. It takes full-on apostasy - a conscious decision to reject God/Christ - to be 'unsaved'.
To clarify - sin all you want you can't lose it. Tell Christ to take a hike - you're done.
As I so eloquently showed in post 55, salvation and apostasy are not gained by works but by belief/disbelief, and that belief /disbelief are not counted as acts of works. Again, lost is the wrong term you cannot lose it. But you can give it away.
With backsliding, you still believe, you just don't walk the walk. You are still saved. It takes full-on apostasy - a conscious decision to reject God/Christ - to be 'unsaved'.
To clarify - sin all you want you can't lose it. Tell Christ to take a hike - you're done.
I looked up "abandon the faith " and it means to "fall away" from the faith.....and here is the greek word being used by Paul.."apostasy" is defined here by Paul..Paul describes what this falling away is...
1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.
verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.
This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort...
It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.
.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away ( apostesontai ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;
[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.
What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.
verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith....this not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others..is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.
This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort...
It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life.
.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.
E
Adam was perfect. without sin, and had a relationship with God on his own merit.
You can not compair adam to us.
If you have to keep eating on the tree of eternal life to have eternal life. then the tree is named wrong, It is not a tree which gives eternal life to the one who partakes of it.
If eternal life can be quenched, It is NOT ETERNAL life.
You can not compair adam to us.
If you have to keep eating on the tree of eternal life to have eternal life. then the tree is named wrong, It is not a tree which gives eternal life to the one who partakes of it.
If eternal life can be quenched, It is NOT ETERNAL life.
E
I do not know. why do you not accept everything it says?
So I listen to you, who thinks you elequently showed truth. Or the apostle John who DID show truth, when he said people who left the church and rejected were never saved to begin with, but they left to prove they were not saved,, abnd that those who are truly saved would never leave?
Thanks, I will trust John the apostle. Not someone who wants me to call John a liar.
Your speaking of an Anti-Christ.
John said they were never saved to begin with. Start trusting the apostle John, and stop trusting your pastor who has told you a false truth.
So I listen to you, who thinks you elequently showed truth. Or the apostle John who DID show truth, when he said people who left the church and rejected were never saved to begin with, but they left to prove they were not saved,, abnd that those who are truly saved would never leave?
Thanks, I will trust John the apostle. Not someone who wants me to call John a liar.
Your speaking of an Anti-Christ.
John said they were never saved to begin with. Start trusting the apostle John, and stop trusting your pastor who has told you a false truth.
Man this is such a touchy subject and hard to put into precise terms. All I can do is share my own feelings about it and consider others responses. I personally feel and have experienced in my salvation that once I was regenerated by Him that I was saved once and for all, but not no matter what I could ever do. I do not feel that if I decided right now to turn my back to Him and live the rest of my life in willing sin rejecting and renouncing Him, and completely disregarding His word that I would still hear "welcome good and faithful servant". Personally I think this would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit having once truly been regenerated by it. That said I honestly don't think it would be possible to decide to do that having felt and come to know His power. So it's a very hard question in that way. I'm not so sure that it could be possible to have felt true regeneration and reject Him, I don't feel I could at least. On the other side I do feel that once we are regenerated we will be all new and will not knowingly live a life of perpetual sin, so I don't feel like the whole attitude of "I'm a Christian now and can sin all I want because the price is paid", could possibly come from a true Christian either.
Honestly in theory I feel it could be possible to knowingly and willingly reject Jesus and "lose salvation", but in personal experience and how I feel I don't see how that would ever be possible at all. I don't think I could for any reason so in that way I don't think it's possible.
Honestly in theory I feel it could be possible to knowingly and willingly reject Jesus and "lose salvation", but in personal experience and how I feel I don't see how that would ever be possible at all. I don't think I could for any reason so in that way I don't think it's possible.