Where the apostles righteous - John the Baptist sinless?

PeterJens · Feb 26, 2016

he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
Luke 1:15

You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.
John 15:3

John the baptist did not choose to follow Jesus, he was born as a follower. I assume he walked in righteousness and not sin. Jesus recognised his special status by saying any member of the Kingdom of Heaven would be greater than John the Baptist because they chose to walk with Jesus, John the Baptist did not.

The apostles when they were actually following Jesus, they were "clean" as Jesus said. The cup had been cleansed on the inside. They were walking in righteousness. They had repented of their sin, given up everything and were following Jesus.

Jesus described this as being perfect, to the rich young man. People forget even though the young man walked away because he was wealthy. The disciples had done all this so were perfect by Jesus's words.

Now in the letters written by the apostles they confirm that it was their experience, that they were walking in obedience to Jesus's commands. For so long people have denied this reality in the early church. And yes Pauls churches had struggles, and the argument was between walking in love or walking in licensiousness. Paul came down on the side of walking in righteousness, love and purity. It is odd so many deny this or that it is even possible.

I have never understood original sin doctrine from scripture but have only recently understood its gnostic origins and the foundation in Augustine and the reformed movement. What I have learnt from being a father, is one of the biggest problems we all face is love betrayal as a human. One young man fell in love but was betrayed by his girl friend. From then on he decided to use partners, and not risk such hurt again.

The nature of peoples hearts appears though they need love and support, they easily close down and get lost in layers of defence and insecurity. This leads to sin and failed relationships. So the source of lostness appears to be our need and acceptance of failure and being vulnerable. We are made in the image of our Father, with a heart of love. But love betrayed leads to sin and death. We feel God has betrayed and hurt us. Jesus came to demonstrate this is not true, and we can be free.

Magenta · Feb 26, 2016

This is so true. Love is the reason God created us, in love, for love, to love Him and be loved by Him, and we exist all the days of our lives hoping for love, desiring love, believing ourselves unworthy of love, wounded by our own understanding of love. I have liked what Kahlil Gibran wrote on love since I first read it as a sixteen year old:

When love beckons to you, follow him,
Though his ways are hard and steep.
And when his wings enfold you yield to him,
Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.
And when he speaks to you believe in him,
Though his voice may shatter your dreams
as the north wind lays waste the garden.

For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as
he is for your growth so is he for your pruning.
Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest
branches that quiver in the sun,
So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth.

Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.
He threshes you to make you naked.
He sifts you to free you from your husks.
He grinds you to whiteness.
He kneads you until you are pliant;
And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may
become sacred bread for God's sacred feast.

All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of
your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart.

But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,
Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness
and pass out of love's threshing-floor,
Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter,
and weep, but not all of your tears.
Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.
Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;
For love is sufficient unto love.

When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart,"
but rather, "I am in the heart of God."
And think not you can direct the course of love, for love,
if it finds you worthy, directs your course.

Love has no other desire but to fulfill itself.
But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:
To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.
To know the pain of too much tenderness.
To be wounded by your own understanding of love;
And to bleed willingly and joyfully.
To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving;
To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy;
To return home at eventide with gratitude;
And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved
in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips.

phil36 · Feb 26, 2016

John was not sinless.

PeterJens · Feb 26, 2016

phil36 said:

How do we know? John was unusual. He walked in communion with the Lord from birth.
He lived in a special dedicated way. He was going to be in the Kingdom. His mission was preaching repentance of sin and walking in righteousness. I have no reason to say he sinned other than all men sin. But if he sinned in his childhood, I am sure he repented and walked in righteousness. Or he was preaching hypocracy as the preparer of the way of the Lord.

In essence his early walk is not the issue more when he was preaching he was righteous, else it is all pointless and flawed.
Do you think that is the Lord you follow and His ways? Have you any reason to say John was flawed?

If one takes the phrase all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, we exempt Jesus because He is the Messiah. Why not John who was the only person born with the Holy Spirit from birth.

phil36 · Feb 26, 2016

Its quite simple really, Jesus died for him.

49 · Feb 26, 2016

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23

All except Jesus that is

.

Skinski7 · Feb 26, 2016

PeterJens said:

That is a good observation.

Remember that this...

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

...is in the context of this...

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
...
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Paul is teaching that "all have sinned" in the context of BOTH PEOPLES, Jew and Gentile. He is making a general statement about populations of people, all are guilty before God.

Like you say, we have no evidence that John the Baptist ever sinned. Perhaps he did, perhaps he did not. He was certainly not sinning when in ministry.

John was also special because he was given the Holy Spirit very early and thus had that extra influence upon him throughout his early life. It is great you noticed that.

Again, good observations.

As you question and challenge Original Sin doctrine you will quickly realise how it necessites ongoing sinning. People who uphold Original Sin believe "sin we will and sin we must" and thus will ALWAYS argue in favour of sin. That is why they must accuse John the Baptist of sinning.

Ahwatukee · Feb 26, 2016

PeterJens said:

Greetings PeterJens,

"Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."

Just as father Abraham was credited with righteousness because of his faith, ,so too are all who have faith in Jesus Christ. For faith, we are credited with his Christ's righteousness and so God sees us through Christ as righteous even though we are still sinners. In fact, all true believers are the spiritual children of Abraham having the same faith. For everyone who is having the same faith are the children of promise. However, in regards to having our own righteousness, scripture states that they are like filthy rags.

Skinski7 · Feb 26, 2016

Ahwatukee said:

The Bible does not say that.

Paul wrote that God reckons FAITH itself as righteousness and that FAITH is described as wholehearted trust and obedience to God.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Faith has steps
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Faith involves wholehearted trust
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Faith has deeds
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

Faith obeys
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Rom_16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Nowhere does the Bible state that we are credited with the righteousness of Jesus. Nowhere. You cannot quote a single passage or verse which says any such thing. Yet you believe it? Why?

"God sees us through Jesus even though we are still sinners?" You really believe that? You really think that God puts on some Jesus glasses and can no longer see your rebellion? That is a foolish belief.

God will render to all ACCORDING TO DEEDS.

Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Faith works by love and thus produces righteousness NOT sin.
Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Ahwatukee said:

Filthy rags pertains to people who REJECT the righteousness of God and work evil and call it righteousness. Why not read the Bible in context instead of misrepresenting Isaiah?

Isa 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,
Isa 64:2 As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!
Isa 64:3 When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.
Isa 64:4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.
Isa 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isa 64:7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Isa 64:9 Be not wroth very sore, O LORD, neither remember iniquity for ever: behold, see, we beseech thee, we are all thy people.
Isa 64:10 Thy holy cities are a wilderness, Zion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation.
Isa 64:11 Our holy and our beautiful house, where our fathers praised thee, is burned up with fire: and all our pleasant things are laid waste.
Isa 64:12 Wilt thou refrain thyself for these things, O LORD? wilt thou hold thy peace, and afflict us very sore?

Isaiah is crying out on BEHALF of a wicked nation whose FORM OF RIGHTEOUSNESS is filthy before God. Isaiah is not teaching that the righteousness of those whom obey God is filthy, perish the thought.

You must believe FINE LINEN is FILTHY.

Rev_19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Angela53510 · Feb 26, 2016

Concerning the Title!!

WERE is the word. NOT "Where!" "Where" is a place, a location! "Were" is the past tense of the word "are." The infinitive "to be"

"to be"

Present tense Past Tense Future Tense (for future reference!)
I am I was I will be
you are you were You will be
she/he/it is he/she/it was He/she/it will be
We are we were we will be
you are you were you will be
they are they were they will be

I just can't get past the bad spelling in this title to actually comment on the thread.

And Peter Jens is not the only one who constantly makes this mistake.

Where did you people learn to write English??

So new title - Were the apostles and/or John the Baptist sinless? Answer - NO. Only Jesus was sinless, as someone has already said.

Sorry to be a grammar Nazi, but after hours of studying grammar for my Greek midterm, it was just such a shock to see such a bad spelling mistake, that I honestly couldn't figure out what the thread was about till I read the posts.

That is why we need to spell and use correct grammar - so we can communicate with each other.

PS I know how easy it is to make a mistake on a phone, with those wretched little keyboards. But this is NOT a typo, but a bad mistake, replacing a verb with an adverb, or interrogative pronoun. Or didn't you people pay attention in school?

Or worse, you were never taught spelling and grammar? Then feel free to blame the school system. I know it happens. I once rescued a grade 6 class with the worst spelling errors in the world, from a life time of not knowing how to spell. I simply made a weekly list of all the spelling mistakes in class, and then we used those words for our weekly spelling test, throwing in use of homonyms, and a lot of cool spelling rules to help. The big issue was the trouble I got in with the principal of the school for actually trying to teach the kids something that would help them the rest of their lives, versus most of the parents in the class coming in and thanking me for finally teaching their kids how to spell. But that was another life........

Ahwatukee · Feb 26, 2016

Now that is truly amazing! I copied and pasted the scripture right from God's word and you said that "the Bible doesn't say that." Yes, the Bible does say that and here is the exact scripture again:

"Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification."

If you don't believe that, I suggest that you go and read it for yourself in Romans 4:18-25, even though it is in plain view right above. Please pay attention to what is underlined, because it pertains to all believers. Just curious, how would you justify the above scripture as not being in the Bible?

HeRoseFromTheDead · Feb 26, 2016

Angela53510 said:

It beats the Mister Bation thread title by a mile!

Ahwatukee · Feb 26, 2016

No sir, it does not pertain only to people who reject the righteousness of God. Paul is speaking to believers and as it states, our righteousness are as unclean rags. We credited with Christ's righteousness, nor our own. As proof, I'll use your own example"

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

You see the word "we" in the verse above? That is referring to believers and non-believers alike. Anyone trying to go before the Lord with their own righteousness and adios! Our faith is based on trusting in Christ's righteousness, which we are credited with, just as father Abraham was. Otherwise, how can a believer be righteous in his own right when scripture states the following:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

If believers were righteous in their own right, then they would have to be without sin. We are covered sinners, covered by Christ's blood. Our trust should be in his righteousness, for we have none.

coby · Feb 27, 2016

Paul:

Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.13*Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing*I do,forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,*14*I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Kaycie · Feb 27, 2016

ALL humans sin and fall short of the glory of God. David, Mary, the apostles, John the Baptist, Daniel, every one. We all need Jesus to save us.

valiant · Feb 27, 2016

PeterJens said:

John the Baptist was sinful like any other man. You ASSUME he walked in righteousness and not sin, the Bible tells me he walked in both.

But they were not sinless. For example Peter sinned grievously in Gal 2.11-13. Paul and Barnabas fell out (Acts 15.2). Indeed at the end of his life Paul said 'sinners, of whom I am chief'.

the young man had far more to lose than the Apostles. He had great possessions, Jesus did not mean anyone who obeyed his words was perfect. It just shows what a low view of sin you have. The word means, full grown, mature, It does not mean perfect as we see it,

Bunkum. They fought over who should be leader.. Did that make them perfect too?

How do they. They don't say so. What abut Romans 7. You make it up as you go along.

coby · Feb 27, 2016

Angela53510 said:

Concerning the Title!!

WERE is the word. NOT "Where!" "Where" is a place, a location! "Were" is the past tense of the word "are." The infinitive "to be"

"to be"

Present tense Past Tense Future Tense (for future reference!)
I am I was I will be
you are you were You will be
she/he/it is he/she/it was He/she/it will be
We are we were we will be
you are you were you will be
they are they were they will be

I just can't get past the bad spelling in this title to actually comment on the thread.

And Peter Jens is not the only one who constantly makes this mistake.

Where did you people learn to write English??

So new title - Were the apostles and/or John the Baptist sinless? Answer - NO. Only Jesus was sinless, as someone has already said.

Sorry to be a grammar Nazi, but after hours of studying grammar for my Greek midterm, it was just such a shock to see such a bad spelling mistake, that I honestly couldn't figure out what the thread was about till I read the posts.

That is why we need to spell and use correct grammar - so we can communicate with each other.

PS I know how easy it is to make a mistake on a phone, with those wretched little keyboards. But this is NOT a typo, but a bad mistake, replacing a verb with an adverb, or interrogative pronoun. Or didn't you people pay attention in school?

Or worse, you were never taught spelling and grammar? Then feel free to blame the school system. I know it happens. I once rescued a grade 6 class with the worst spelling errors in the world, from a life time of not knowing how to spell. I simply made a weekly list of all the spelling mistakes in class, and then we used those words for our weekly spelling test, throwing in use of homonyms, and a lot of cool spelling rules to help. The big issue was the trouble I got in with the principal of the school for actually trying to teach the kids something that would help them the rest of their lives, versus most of the parents in the class coming in and thanking me for finally teaching their kids how to spell. But that was another life........

It's imputed good grammar. God sees it as perfect grammar.

Tintin · Feb 27, 2016

Wow. The original sin belief isn't gnostic in the least! Do you even know what Gnoticism is, Peter? I'm gathering that you don't.

Grace777x70 · Feb 27, 2016

.....

rolling-on-the-floor-laughing-smiley-emoticon[1].gif

coby said:

PeterJens · Feb 27, 2016

PeterJens said:

valiant said:

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
Matt 19:21

Your definition of perfection is no disagreements, no ability to make mistakes, or be missled.
You have said you are so superior, and I am scum to suggest walking in righteousness is pleasing to the Lord.

There is a large difference between sin, and learning, struggling to obtain balance and the truth.
God was upset with Israel and wanted to destroy them all and make Moses the heir to the promise. Moses said this would dishonour the promises God had made, and he pleaded for forgiveness of their sin.

David was deemed righteous yet he failed many times. Walking with the Lord does not guarantee there will not be issues or somehow it is predictable. Relationships never work like that.

What I am establishing is Jesus regarded the apostles as righteous, clean, and John the Baptist likewise. So many heap condemnation and a lack of acceptance of good people walking with the Lord, which is satans work.

People are so condemning so easily of others yet so light on getting their hearts sorted out and emotions settled.

Where the apostles righteous - John the Baptist sinless?

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