Well, I wouldn't think it would shock you that so many walk in defeat as regards inward holiness. As they've testified, they went on in that misery sometimes for years until they learned that sanctification, like salvation, is through grace alone. They can't make themselves inwardly holy. All they can do is make their outside look good for men to see. They have testified that they began to see great victories inside when they began having faith in God for sanctification instead of faith in their own attemptings.
Repentance: A Boast in the Flesh
- Thread starter BenFTW
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Amen. Being the same on the inside as the outside, people following Jesus. This is my hearts desire
for everyone. But it can only happen in Christ because only here is there infinite love to heal and
provide safety. In a strange kind of way, our theology matters less than this reality.
It struck me about purity, being objective, clean, healed, not hurt or conflicted you do see God is
fantastic, just and fair.
As a kid I was a pacifist but after seeing how evil people can get, no way.
But for those who hold their heart as too lost and dark to touch these words are like poison.
There are real lunatics who need restraining.
So Stunned, thankyou, and Amen.
for everyone. But it can only happen in Christ because only here is there infinite love to heal and
provide safety. In a strange kind of way, our theology matters less than this reality.
It struck me about purity, being objective, clean, healed, not hurt or conflicted you do see God is
fantastic, just and fair.
As a kid I was a pacifist but after seeing how evil people can get, no way.
But for those who hold their heart as too lost and dark to touch these words are like poison.
There are real lunatics who need restraining.
So Stunned, thankyou, and Amen.
A
It is no secret what God can do!
I John 3:9
Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.
The trouble you're having is that you're trying to reason God's grace in your own understanding. You don't yet realize that it's not your flesh that's saved, but your soul. No matter how good you try to be, your flesh will never be holy. Because God is spirit and he relates to us as spiritual sons. We walk by faith, not by sight.
John 16:8 reads:
And when he comes, he will convict the world of sin....
We're not the world. The world lives according to its flesh. Our flesh has been crucified with Christ. The Holy Spirit has redeemed us and is changing us more & more into his image. He's not changing our flesh. The flesh is not able to reconcile with God.
Once you surrender your intellectual, analytical, carnal understanding of who God is, you will see that it's no longer you who live, but Christ in you.
John 16:33
Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world!
Christ has overcome the world in us! Focus on the Lord, not on your flesh.
I John 3:9
Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God.
The trouble you're having is that you're trying to reason God's grace in your own understanding. You don't yet realize that it's not your flesh that's saved, but your soul. No matter how good you try to be, your flesh will never be holy. Because God is spirit and he relates to us as spiritual sons. We walk by faith, not by sight.
John 16:8 reads:
And when he comes, he will convict the world of sin....
We're not the world. The world lives according to its flesh. Our flesh has been crucified with Christ. The Holy Spirit has redeemed us and is changing us more & more into his image. He's not changing our flesh. The flesh is not able to reconcile with God.
Once you surrender your intellectual, analytical, carnal understanding of who God is, you will see that it's no longer you who live, but Christ in you.
John 16:33
Be of good cheer, I have overcome the world!
Christ has overcome the world in us! Focus on the Lord, not on your flesh.
sometimes we have to stop and think if the circle of addiction to the contention
we are caught up in will in any wise or in any way bring us into a closer relationship
with our Heavenly Father?
11TIM. 2:23. - But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
TITUS 3:9. - But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law;
for they are unprofitable and vain.
so, the question is, why should we avoid 'contention' in the 'guise' of defending the Faith?
contention is simply the 'work of the flesh', - our Father represents (PEACE & UNITY & SPEAKING THE TRUTH
IN LOVE & BEARING ALL OF THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT) -
JAMES 1:19-20. -Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
..........
we are caught up in will in any wise or in any way bring us into a closer relationship
with our Heavenly Father?
11TIM. 2:23. - But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
TITUS 3:9. - But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law;
for they are unprofitable and vain.
so, the question is, why should we avoid 'contention' in the 'guise' of defending the Faith?
contention is simply the 'work of the flesh', - our Father represents (PEACE & UNITY & SPEAKING THE TRUTH
IN LOVE & BEARING ALL OF THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT) -
JAMES 1:19-20. -Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
..........
I think you are right that our theology is secondary to that wonderful reality of what going to Him and learning to know Him produces in us! When I read what you wrote there, the Holy Spirit leaped inside me.
Thank you too Peter. For sticking with me even in exasperations. Trying to understand each other so we can bear one anothers burdens can take a lot of time and patience! So thank you too.
May you grow your roots more and more down into Him and receive mercy after mercy and blessing after blessing!!
Thank you too Peter. For sticking with me even in exasperations. Trying to understand each other so we can bear one anothers burdens can take a lot of time and patience! So thank you too.
May you grow your roots more and more down into Him and receive mercy after mercy and blessing after blessing!!
In fact, what has been hijacked are the Biblical definitions of repentance, grace, sin, forgiveness, etc.
A new and false gospel is being preached on CC. I had never heard of it before you, Grace777 started extolling it. I even read some links someone posted, and still didn't undertand what it was about. None so blind as those who will not see.
Since I am not a legalist, nor antinomian, I fell hook, line and sinker for this false gospel. I thought it was supporting the doctrine of eternal security, which I am a firm believer in. Since God showed me in my spirit by HIS spirit, and confirmed in the world of God.
In fact, all the posts by grace+ people just confirmed what I thought I knew. But your constant posted links to the "Escape to Reality" website, set alarm bells off. He was pulling things radically out of context. Using only one verse, or part of a verse to support his viewpoints. But I guess the alarm was not sounded loud enough! I kept on thinking we were still debating "law versus grace" preciously because of such posts as the one I have partially quoted above.
So I kept reading all the posts by you, and supporting you. Until one day - ZAP! I finally realized what you were saying! Not what PeterJens or HeRose or P_Rebein were saying! What you were saying! Your words judge you! No anti hypergrace websites for me. My bad! Yesterday was the first day I actually looked a websites that were saying hypergrace is a heresy and Joseph Prince its false prophet.
Now I am trying my best not to be critical or nasty here. And I certainly am not judging the lives of anyone in this forum. (Sometimes I do get strong in the Family Forum, because people are reaping the consequences of their sin and only God can help the messes they are in!)
So the Holy Spirit, particularly through your posts, Grace777 showed me that you were not preaching a Biblical or historical faith. In fact, it was totally "another gospel." I certainly don't say every person who believes in hypergrace is not saved. And I have seen over and over people confessing their sin. I guess that is some kind of hangover of their religious teachings?
BUT - this is a revelation gone mad. It denies the whole purpose of Christ coming. It's evangelists (not just you, Grace777) are actually lying to this forum. For instance, saying that 1 John 1:9 was "only" for Gnostics. When in fact, there was NO Gnosticism when the epistles of 1, 2 & 3 John were written. It didn't come out until the 2nd century. That is history, which again, you are denying.
To say nothing of there being no scripture support, internal or external for this ridiculous view that 1 John 1:9 doesn't really apply to us, when it was written to believers. That we really don't have to confess our sins, because God forgave the on the cross. The entire epistle of John was written to believers. So, it is a patent lie that 1 John 1:9 was written to Gnostics. And it will be reported as a lie, in the future. That alone tells me hypergrace is wrong, when it's evangelists have to literally lie to make the Bible conform with their "religious" beliefs.
No, this is not about "religious traditions" at all. It is about people who deny the reality of the gospel and replace it with another.
My sincerest wish, is that you would please tell me, with regards to repentance, what are you changing your mind from, and to?
So Biblical Christianity - sin and a fallen life -> repentance (God giving me the power to confess my sins and change my life) -> to living life in Christ, a new creature in him. Positionally perfect, but not sinless and still aware of sin, and its consequences.
One more time!
sin (the broad road that leads to destruction ---> repentance (turning from sin - confession of sins) ---> towards God. Serving him the rest of my life!
What is your definition of repentance? What are you changing YOUR from, and to what?
Let's see Lauren....
What bothers me...Hmmmm
Straw men. Yes, straw men really bother me!
You have said I am saying everyone is continuing in sin? Show me one place where I said everyone is continuing in sin? I am calling out specifics, forum related, but never have I said one person is continuing in sin. I am not a legalist, I do not know the lives of one single person in this forum. So there is no way I have said Joe or Tim or Sue are sinning in this, that or the other thing!
But I am judging and condemning a false doctrine which is being pushed primarily by one person, but now joined by many others who have been deceived. Why? Because sometimes there are 30 o4 40 guests reading these threads.I do not want to see them think the hypergrace heresy (sorry, it is such an unbiblical lie, I cannot leave the "heresy" part off). I do not want others to be sucked into this lie.
Grace is grace! It is amazing! It saved a wretched sinner like me! I certainly do not condemn you, Lauren, as I have seen you share a bit of your testimony, in which you were saved from sin. Others have shared the same!
But how sad, to see the message of grace, repentance, etc as something completely different than the Biblical definitions. How drastic that people have made this heresy their own, without realizing that it is far from Christ, and God. Hypergrace (so called by its supporters - who taught me this new term I never studied in Seminary!) is graceless, repentanceless, sinless, confession less and goes off on a bad revelation by Joseph Prince! I have posted the specific verses, and the quotes from hypergrace adherents over and over. Unlike some, not going to revisit it unless God moves me to, again!
As for Bible study, my husband read the KJV Bible, ONCE and got saved. One reading! He was convicted of his sin. No foreign or dead languages. Just conviction by the Holy Spirit and repentance. Turning from sin to God. For me, in the meantime, so many people telling me I needed joy, and all it would bring to me by just believing in Jesus.
But that was a lie, too! We have to believe and repent! I had no power to repent on my own. God is the one who called me, saved me and told me the things I needed to repent of - and that has continued throughout my life as a believer. And if there are a few incidents in Acts where the word "repent" is not mentioned, and people are saved, I am sure that Luke had different reasons for only including the material he did - like the excitement in Acts 10 that Gentiles received the Holy Spirit. And besides, Luke had already gone out of his way to explain the importance of repentance in early chapters in Acts.
So - the Holy Spirit leads and guides - but never outside of the word of God, properly exegeted and in context. Too much twisting of Scriptures and definitions here show me that we really must just sit down and read the Bible.
(Not referring to you, in my last statement!)
So please, stop with the straw men. Quote me directly, if I have erred and I will confess my sin and apologize.
Last edited:
Hi anglea,
I have already told you now 3x times what repentance is. I'll just post links again as this is getting ridiculous to keep posting the same things over an over again.
Here are the word-for-word accounts of the real gospel being preached by Peter and Paul in Acts 10, 13 - not one word of "repentance" was used and yet they did repent. Here is the link.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-repented-false-condemnation.html#post2626391
Here is the link that talks about the "fruits of repentance
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...abide-christ-john-15-1-8-a-9.html#post2648475
Now to this foolishness that the Holy Spirit told you the gospel of the grace of Christ and relying on His work is "another gospel" - is just plain nonsense just because you don't agree with the meaning of a word.
You are siding with a person that doesn't even believe we are born-again until we get a new body in the future sometime with his belief that grace -believers are "gnostic" and it is complete foolishness.
As far as 1 John addressing gnostics...here is what some sources have said about that subject. Again if this conflicts with your religious beliefs - then so be it.
Intro to 1 John — Biblica
Who are the deceivers 1 John is written against, mentioned in 2:26? - Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange
https://bible.org/seriespage/introduction-1-john
1 John 1:9 explained clearly.
https://carm.org/gnosticism
Gnosticism
In 1 Tim 6:4 Paul warns us not to get into disputes about words as they cause strife and envy, evil suspicions..etc ...so this is not profitable at all. If you have a different meaning for repentance then someone else - fine - go for it. I am not going to argue over you about it.
You can continue to slander me and the others on here all you want but we will just bless you back in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I believe in what Spurgeon says about repentance if you want a short version of it.
I have already told you now 3x times what repentance is. I'll just post links again as this is getting ridiculous to keep posting the same things over an over again.
Here are the word-for-word accounts of the real gospel being preached by Peter and Paul in Acts 10, 13 - not one word of "repentance" was used and yet they did repent. Here is the link.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-repented-false-condemnation.html#post2626391
Here is the link that talks about the "fruits of repentance
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...abide-christ-john-15-1-8-a-9.html#post2648475
Now to this foolishness that the Holy Spirit told you the gospel of the grace of Christ and relying on His work is "another gospel" - is just plain nonsense just because you don't agree with the meaning of a word.
You are siding with a person that doesn't even believe we are born-again until we get a new body in the future sometime with his belief that grace -believers are "gnostic" and it is complete foolishness.
As far as 1 John addressing gnostics...here is what some sources have said about that subject. Again if this conflicts with your religious beliefs - then so be it.
Intro to 1 John — Biblica
Who are the deceivers 1 John is written against, mentioned in 2:26? - Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange
https://bible.org/seriespage/introduction-1-john
1 John 1:9 explained clearly.
https://carm.org/gnosticism
Gnosticism
In 1 Tim 6:4 Paul warns us not to get into disputes about words as they cause strife and envy, evil suspicions..etc ...so this is not profitable at all. If you have a different meaning for repentance then someone else - fine - go for it. I am not going to argue over you about it.
You can continue to slander me and the others on here all you want but we will just bless you back in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I believe in what Spurgeon says about repentance if you want a short version of it.
Last edited:
A false flag strategy works very well. It is always easy to pick a fight on some minor doctrinal issue
and then push emotional antagonism and massive accusation of sin, hatred, malice etc out of nothing.
To those who wonder, I have no hatred, anger, resentment, malice against anyone. You follow your
beliefs. I hope you realise I will carry on expressing my own and my observations of theology and
spiritual foundations. I have tried time and again to layout fairly both our positions.
The Lord is very gracious to all of us, and we get things very wrong sometimes. So it is through love
and bearing each other weaknesses we can often find a way through.
I am not hear to judge you, and I can understand why to a legalist, a grace filled only gospel is
heaven, and in that regard I preach it too. PTSD, emotional abuse, leave their mark. For me I
had to see God as my Father, and love my parents from my heart, even with their failings and
weaknesses and forgive them. It is hard to learn these lessons, but it is the 5th commandment
for a reason. These things before they are healed does your head in.
Look up the ministry of Jack Frost - a man after my own heart. So nothing is this world is quite
as it appears and our hearts often have needs and problems it takes time and love to work with.
When you work with God, He provides the words. So be careful, and test all things that are said,
because He is a wonderful King, and the gospel is the most precious thing we possess.
and then push emotional antagonism and massive accusation of sin, hatred, malice etc out of nothing.
To those who wonder, I have no hatred, anger, resentment, malice against anyone. You follow your
beliefs. I hope you realise I will carry on expressing my own and my observations of theology and
spiritual foundations. I have tried time and again to layout fairly both our positions.
The Lord is very gracious to all of us, and we get things very wrong sometimes. So it is through love
and bearing each other weaknesses we can often find a way through.
I am not hear to judge you, and I can understand why to a legalist, a grace filled only gospel is
heaven, and in that regard I preach it too. PTSD, emotional abuse, leave their mark. For me I
had to see God as my Father, and love my parents from my heart, even with their failings and
weaknesses and forgive them. It is hard to learn these lessons, but it is the 5th commandment
for a reason. These things before they are healed does your head in.
Look up the ministry of Jack Frost - a man after my own heart. So nothing is this world is quite
as it appears and our hearts often have needs and problems it takes time and love to work with.
When you work with God, He provides the words. So be careful, and test all things that are said,
because He is a wonderful King, and the gospel is the most precious thing we possess.
If you want to define arrogance, this is it.
Someone can fairly say, this is my understanding of repentance.
You know who thinks they are the authority, and how everyone must just accept what they are saying.
I did wonder why people accused me of doing this.
I had forgotten the principle what people accuse you of they often do it the most.
Here is a demonstration of this point 100%.
I would laugh, but this is not actually funny, in any shape or form.
Someone can fairly say, this is my understanding of repentance.
You know who thinks they are the authority, and how everyone must just accept what they are saying.
I did wonder why people accused me of doing this.
I had forgotten the principle what people accuse you of they often do it the most.
Here is a demonstration of this point 100%.
I would laugh, but this is not actually funny, in any shape or form.
Also Angela,
If you think, as you told me that real repentance is " fasting, mourning and weeping and going through a lot of misery" - then you go for it.
No one is going to call you a false teacher for thinking that if you want - please have some respect for those that think differently then you do in this area. Thank you.
There are many that think repentance is as the Greek word says "To change the mind"...which yes - includes not wanting to sin anymore and is one fruit of repenting to trust in the Lord Jesus by the Holy Spirit inside us to transforms us.
As Spurgeon said "To repent is to "change your mind" about sin, Christ and all the great things of God".
As I said before a few times - I believe in "hyper-repenting" as I find out new beautiful truths about the love and grace of our Father and Lord towards us and yes that includes all types of sin.
If this offends you - then you will just have to be offended. I am not ashamed of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. You can throw all the stones you like at us but I encourage you to meditate on Hebrews 12:15 as this verse shows what is happening here IMO.
I bless you and your family and lift your name before the Father and ask that you and your family be filled with the blessings of God.
If you think, as you told me that real repentance is " fasting, mourning and weeping and going through a lot of misery" - then you go for it.
No one is going to call you a false teacher for thinking that if you want - please have some respect for those that think differently then you do in this area. Thank you.
There are many that think repentance is as the Greek word says "To change the mind"...which yes - includes not wanting to sin anymore and is one fruit of repenting to trust in the Lord Jesus by the Holy Spirit inside us to transforms us.
As Spurgeon said "To repent is to "change your mind" about sin, Christ and all the great things of God".
As I said before a few times - I believe in "hyper-repenting" as I find out new beautiful truths about the love and grace of our Father and Lord towards us and yes that includes all types of sin.
If this offends you - then you will just have to be offended. I am not ashamed of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. You can throw all the stones you like at us but I encourage you to meditate on Hebrews 12:15 as this verse shows what is happening here IMO.
I bless you and your family and lift your name before the Father and ask that you and your family be filled with the blessings of God.
Last edited:
The truth of the heart
Now it appears we are made with the ability to hide pain, contradiction and blind ourselves
to issues deep within our makeup and emotional responses. It has fascinated me over many
years how this works. Freud has his theories and we now have CBT and other approaches
which to work.
Now imagine Jesus and the gospel is saying straighten out these things, put reality in its
place and you will be righteous, balanced, clean, loving empowered by the King of Kings.
And the best CBT manual, the sermon on the mount. And the reason why it is not theological
is because until your emotions work sensibly, it just goes off all the time.
This is why for me legalism fails, it never addresses the emotional turmoil within, hyper grace
fails, because it just excuses the emotional turmoil, and the only thing that works is doing what
Jesus called us to because He died on the cross because He loves us this much.
And until you believe Jesus and put it actually into practice you will never know.
Therein lies the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of this world.
Now it appears we are made with the ability to hide pain, contradiction and blind ourselves
to issues deep within our makeup and emotional responses. It has fascinated me over many
years how this works. Freud has his theories and we now have CBT and other approaches
which to work.
Now imagine Jesus and the gospel is saying straighten out these things, put reality in its
place and you will be righteous, balanced, clean, loving empowered by the King of Kings.
And the best CBT manual, the sermon on the mount. And the reason why it is not theological
is because until your emotions work sensibly, it just goes off all the time.
This is why for me legalism fails, it never addresses the emotional turmoil within, hyper grace
fails, because it just excuses the emotional turmoil, and the only thing that works is doing what
Jesus called us to because He died on the cross because He loves us this much.
And until you believe Jesus and put it actually into practice you will never know.
Therein lies the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of this world.
Dear reader,
It is suggested Spurgeon supported the Hyper-grace view of repentance.
Read the article below and you will get a clear view of his understanding
and belief.
Faith and Repentance Inseparable
Spurgeon on repentance
*****************
I know some very excellent brethren—would God there were more like them in zeal and love—who, in their zeal to preach up simple faith in Christ have felt a little difficulty about the matter of repentance; and I have known some of them who have tried to get over the difficulty by softening down the apparent hardness of the word repentance, by expounding it according to its more usual Greek equivalent, a word which occurs in the original of my text, and signifies "to change one's mind." Apparently they interpret repentance to be a somewhat slighter thing than we usually conceive it to be, a mere change of mind, in fact.
Now, allow me to suggest to those dear brethren, that the Holy Ghost never preaches repentance as a trifle; and the change of mind or understanding of which the gospel speaks is a very deep and solemn work, and must not on any account be depreciated. Moreover, there is another word which is also used in the original Greek for repentance, not so often I admit, but still is used, which signifies "an after-care," a word which has in it something more of sorrow and anxiety, than that which signifies changing one's mind.
There must be sorrow for sin and hatred of it in true repentance, or else I have read my Bible to little purpose. In very truth, I think there is no necessity for any other definition than that of the children's hymn—
"Repentance is to leave
The sins we loved before,
And show that we in earnest grieve,
By doing so no more."
To repent does mean a change of mind; but then it is a thorough change of the understanding and all that is in the mind, so that it includes an illumination, an illumination of the Holy Spirit; and I think it includes a discovery of iniquity and a hatred of it, without which there can hardly be a genuine repentance. We must not, I think, undervalue repentance.
It is a blessed grace of God the Holy Spirit, and it is absolutely necessary unto salvation.
*************
We must not, I think, undervalue repentance.
It is suggested Spurgeon supported the Hyper-grace view of repentance.
Read the article below and you will get a clear view of his understanding
and belief.
Faith and Repentance Inseparable
Spurgeon on repentance
*****************
I know some very excellent brethren—would God there were more like them in zeal and love—who, in their zeal to preach up simple faith in Christ have felt a little difficulty about the matter of repentance; and I have known some of them who have tried to get over the difficulty by softening down the apparent hardness of the word repentance, by expounding it according to its more usual Greek equivalent, a word which occurs in the original of my text, and signifies "to change one's mind." Apparently they interpret repentance to be a somewhat slighter thing than we usually conceive it to be, a mere change of mind, in fact.
Now, allow me to suggest to those dear brethren, that the Holy Ghost never preaches repentance as a trifle; and the change of mind or understanding of which the gospel speaks is a very deep and solemn work, and must not on any account be depreciated. Moreover, there is another word which is also used in the original Greek for repentance, not so often I admit, but still is used, which signifies "an after-care," a word which has in it something more of sorrow and anxiety, than that which signifies changing one's mind.
There must be sorrow for sin and hatred of it in true repentance, or else I have read my Bible to little purpose. In very truth, I think there is no necessity for any other definition than that of the children's hymn—
"Repentance is to leave
The sins we loved before,
And show that we in earnest grieve,
By doing so no more."
To repent does mean a change of mind; but then it is a thorough change of the understanding and all that is in the mind, so that it includes an illumination, an illumination of the Holy Spirit; and I think it includes a discovery of iniquity and a hatred of it, without which there can hardly be a genuine repentance. We must not, I think, undervalue repentance.
It is a blessed grace of God the Holy Spirit, and it is absolutely necessary unto salvation.
*************
We must not, I think, undervalue repentance.
I will post again for the 3rd time my views on sin so that we don't get any "twisting" done.
Sin in all it's forms is unbelief that God will take care of us , so we try to "do" things in the flesh instead of relying on our loving Father and Lord.
Quote:
To me..all sin is relational. All sin is a failure to see the life of Christ in me. I am ignorant of His life in me. To me..most outward sin is just a "fruit" of the real sin.
For example..If I steal something..that is a sin..but the real sin behind that is the failure to recognize my Father will take care of me. I am operating in the flesh. I want to take things into my own hand and "do" things. ( I don't steal....well I haven't since I was a kid...not that I can remember anyway..it's just an example )
The other part is when you see how horrid it really is when we mess up....sin....transgress.... whatever term you want to use....
...what I see is my unbelief in the goodness and love of my Father and Lord Jesus for me. That is the horrid part because I know that is not Their character nor is it really my true nature now and what He has made me in Christ.
Sin in all it's forms is unbelief that God will take care of us , so we try to "do" things in the flesh instead of relying on our loving Father and Lord.
Quote:
To me..all sin is relational. All sin is a failure to see the life of Christ in me. I am ignorant of His life in me. To me..most outward sin is just a "fruit" of the real sin.
For example..If I steal something..that is a sin..but the real sin behind that is the failure to recognize my Father will take care of me. I am operating in the flesh. I want to take things into my own hand and "do" things. ( I don't steal....well I haven't since I was a kid...not that I can remember anyway..it's just an example )
The other part is when you see how horrid it really is when we mess up....sin....transgress.... whatever term you want to use....
...what I see is my unbelief in the goodness and love of my Father and Lord Jesus for me. That is the horrid part because I know that is not Their character nor is it really my true nature now and what He has made me in Christ.
L
Angela53510;2711109]et's see Lauren....
What bothers me...Hmmmm
Straw men. Yes, straw men really bother me!
You have said I am saying everyone is continuing in sin? Show me one place where I said everyone is continuing in sin? I am calling out specifics, forum related, but never have I said one person is continuing in sin. I am not a legalist, I do not know the lives of one single person in this forum. So there is no way I have said Joe or Tim or Sue are sinning in this, that or the other thing!
well, that is not so. let's look at what I actually said:
now your post was all about hyper grace, so if you do not think anyone here fits that description, why come into this thread and post at great length all about it? why use Ben's thread as a platform for your post if you believe no one is hyper grace?
I did not say that you said everyone is continuing in sin. I don't know why you thought I did
But I am judging and condemning a false doctrine which is being pushed primarily by one person, but now joined by many others who have been deceived. Why? Because sometimes there are 30 o4 40 guests reading these threads.I do not want to see them think the hypergrace heresy (sorry, it is such an unbiblical lie, I cannot leave the "heresy" part off). I do not want others to be sucked into this lie.
easy to call others deceived, right? first others were deceived according to you and now you have a change of mind and a whole other group, according to you, are deceived. is that right? you do understand that you have no actual control over what others believe whether they are guests or not? this is a forum, not a church. people tend to come and go here like revolving doors. it is not really easy to get to know people here personally but I have made friends here through pm's and following their posts. I do not find anyone guilty of what you are saying. the main concern of those who believe a new heresy has sprung up, is that some people teach it is ok to continue sinning
now you please show us all who has said that and I will apologize...but I don't mean how you have interpreted someone's post to mean something other then what they said. no, just please show us all who said sin does not matter..
Grace is grace! It is amazing! It saved a wretched sinner like me! I certainly do not condemn you, Lauren, as I have seen you share a bit of your testimony, in which you were saved from sin. Others have shared the same!
well I was saved when I was 5. I never did drugs, I have never had a drinking a problem and I always thought I knew what grace was until I started seeing these hyper grace threads. it's nonsense. you mention a straw man, but this business is a red herring or maybe bad cheese. I am serious here. I know you are too, but I do not see what you say at all which is why I object. I am not watching any particular person on tv all the time, and with most of my life spent in church and being saved, I think I have a pretty good understanding of the doctrines as I also love study and I have taught both adults and children with good attendance and results. I mean if children are saved, that's good, right? If adults are helped and begin understand better, that's also good, right?
But how sad, to see the message of grace, repentance, etc as something completely different than the Biblical definitions. How drastic that people have made this heresy their own, without realizing that it is far from Christ, and God. Hypergrace (so called by its supporters - who taught me this new term I never studied in Seminary!) is graceless, repentanceless, sinless, confession less and goes off on a bad revelation by Joseph Prince! I have posted the specific verses, and the quotes from hypergrace adherents over and over. Unlike some, not going to revisit it unless God moves me to, again!
I do not read every post in these threads...I don't have the time for one thing and I do have a life off here for another.
However, I am assured that those I have read from others here, do not lead me to think they do not repent and they continue in sin and all the other things being claimed by heresy hunters. I actually used to be far more conservative and I also thought certain speakers were off the rails, but I have made it my business to look into things for myself and what I see is sometimes a mix (mind you I don't much care for that) and sometimes the pendulum swings the other way so that we end up with religion instead of power and new life in Christ.
Those who teach have a much greater responsibility than those who do not...not telling you anything you don't know here. I don't know all that God is doing in the world and I don't know how He is bringing it altogether; I have to have faith in HIM, that He will do as He says because if I just look at people as the causative force, I shall buy a cabin in the woods and a good axe for the wood. I am learning to relax in Christ more, cause I used to go around ringing all the alarm bells too and often I was right, but I did not handle things in the right way.
Just cause you know something, does not mean you need to share. Maybe you understand that or not, I don't know.
As for Bible study, my husband read the KJV Bible, ONCE and got saved. One reading! He was convicted of his sin. No foreign or dead languages. Just conviction by the Holy Spirit and repentance. Turning from sin to God. For me, in the meantime, so many people telling me I needed joy, and all it would bring to me by just believing in Jesus.
I was brought up on the KJV of the Bible...I love that your husband was saved by reading it...God's word does not return to Him void...one time, years ago, when I was in an awful spot, God spoke directly into my mind with these words: "He sent His word and healed them and delivered them from their destructions" that is directly from the King James, Psalm 107:20 but I did not know. I had to get out a concordance to find it and it was just as I heard in my mind. So, I know. and that is not the only time God has spoken to me that way but I don't write all over the forums about my 'experiences' . I seek God...not experiences and I know I can trust His word more than any experience and that is what I go by. I could write all night about that, but folks would get sleepy...actually they would just skip over the post
I stick by the biblical definition of the word repent and also the historical and cultural meanings as used by John the Baptist and I see no difference in the end result...however, God does not repent in the 21stC understanding of the word so it must mean more than sorrow ? I believe it does. The word conviction comes to mind...not I am convicted of my sins, but I am convicted as in convinced in my mind of the truth...gospel...of what I hear and so I believe and act accordingly. While emotions are involved, they are no longer driving my actions. which, is a good thing.
anyway, this is getting long as I reflect and try to explain and I appreciate what you wrote here, so let me summarize
the Holy Spirit is our Teacher among other things, but He is also a personal instructor BUT I believe you base everything on scripture but that does not mean you understand everything because we do not even have everything but have what God allows us to have. people are inherently dangerous.
What bothers me...Hmmmm
Straw men. Yes, straw men really bother me!
You have said I am saying everyone is continuing in sin? Show me one place where I said everyone is continuing in sin? I am calling out specifics, forum related, but never have I said one person is continuing in sin. I am not a legalist, I do not know the lives of one single person in this forum. So there is no way I have said Joe or Tim or Sue are sinning in this, that or the other thing!
well, that is not so. let's look at what I actually said:
now your post was all about hyper grace, so if you do not think anyone here fits that description, why come into this thread and post at great length all about it? why use Ben's thread as a platform for your post if you believe no one is hyper grace?
I did not say that you said everyone is continuing in sin. I don't know why you thought I did
But I am judging and condemning a false doctrine which is being pushed primarily by one person, but now joined by many others who have been deceived. Why? Because sometimes there are 30 o4 40 guests reading these threads.I do not want to see them think the hypergrace heresy (sorry, it is such an unbiblical lie, I cannot leave the "heresy" part off). I do not want others to be sucked into this lie.
easy to call others deceived, right? first others were deceived according to you and now you have a change of mind and a whole other group, according to you, are deceived. is that right? you do understand that you have no actual control over what others believe whether they are guests or not? this is a forum, not a church. people tend to come and go here like revolving doors. it is not really easy to get to know people here personally but I have made friends here through pm's and following their posts. I do not find anyone guilty of what you are saying. the main concern of those who believe a new heresy has sprung up, is that some people teach it is ok to continue sinning
now you please show us all who has said that and I will apologize...but I don't mean how you have interpreted someone's post to mean something other then what they said. no, just please show us all who said sin does not matter..
Grace is grace! It is amazing! It saved a wretched sinner like me! I certainly do not condemn you, Lauren, as I have seen you share a bit of your testimony, in which you were saved from sin. Others have shared the same!
well I was saved when I was 5. I never did drugs, I have never had a drinking a problem and I always thought I knew what grace was until I started seeing these hyper grace threads. it's nonsense. you mention a straw man, but this business is a red herring or maybe bad cheese. I am serious here. I know you are too, but I do not see what you say at all which is why I object. I am not watching any particular person on tv all the time, and with most of my life spent in church and being saved, I think I have a pretty good understanding of the doctrines as I also love study and I have taught both adults and children with good attendance and results. I mean if children are saved, that's good, right? If adults are helped and begin understand better, that's also good, right?
But how sad, to see the message of grace, repentance, etc as something completely different than the Biblical definitions. How drastic that people have made this heresy their own, without realizing that it is far from Christ, and God. Hypergrace (so called by its supporters - who taught me this new term I never studied in Seminary!) is graceless, repentanceless, sinless, confession less and goes off on a bad revelation by Joseph Prince! I have posted the specific verses, and the quotes from hypergrace adherents over and over. Unlike some, not going to revisit it unless God moves me to, again!
I do not read every post in these threads...I don't have the time for one thing and I do have a life off here for another.
However, I am assured that those I have read from others here, do not lead me to think they do not repent and they continue in sin and all the other things being claimed by heresy hunters. I actually used to be far more conservative and I also thought certain speakers were off the rails, but I have made it my business to look into things for myself and what I see is sometimes a mix (mind you I don't much care for that) and sometimes the pendulum swings the other way so that we end up with religion instead of power and new life in Christ.
Those who teach have a much greater responsibility than those who do not...not telling you anything you don't know here. I don't know all that God is doing in the world and I don't know how He is bringing it altogether; I have to have faith in HIM, that He will do as He says because if I just look at people as the causative force, I shall buy a cabin in the woods and a good axe for the wood. I am learning to relax in Christ more, cause I used to go around ringing all the alarm bells too and often I was right, but I did not handle things in the right way.
Just cause you know something, does not mean you need to share. Maybe you understand that or not, I don't know.
As for Bible study, my husband read the KJV Bible, ONCE and got saved. One reading! He was convicted of his sin. No foreign or dead languages. Just conviction by the Holy Spirit and repentance. Turning from sin to God. For me, in the meantime, so many people telling me I needed joy, and all it would bring to me by just believing in Jesus.
I was brought up on the KJV of the Bible...I love that your husband was saved by reading it...God's word does not return to Him void...one time, years ago, when I was in an awful spot, God spoke directly into my mind with these words: "He sent His word and healed them and delivered them from their destructions" that is directly from the King James, Psalm 107:20 but I did not know. I had to get out a concordance to find it and it was just as I heard in my mind. So, I know. and that is not the only time God has spoken to me that way but I don't write all over the forums about my 'experiences' . I seek God...not experiences and I know I can trust His word more than any experience and that is what I go by. I could write all night about that, but folks would get sleepy...actually they would just skip over the post
I stick by the biblical definition of the word repent and also the historical and cultural meanings as used by John the Baptist and I see no difference in the end result...however, God does not repent in the 21stC understanding of the word so it must mean more than sorrow ? I believe it does. The word conviction comes to mind...not I am convicted of my sins, but I am convicted as in convinced in my mind of the truth...gospel...of what I hear and so I believe and act accordingly. While emotions are involved, they are no longer driving my actions. which, is a good thing.
anyway, this is getting long as I reflect and try to explain and I appreciate what you wrote here, so let me summarize
the Holy Spirit is our Teacher among other things, but He is also a personal instructor BUT I believe you base everything on scripture but that does not mean you understand everything because we do not even have everything but have what God allows us to have. people are inherently dangerous.
Hi anglea,
I have already told you now 3x times what repentance is. I'll just post links again as this is getting ridiculous to keep posting the same things over an over again.
Here are the word-for-word accounts of the real gospel being preached by Peter and Paul in Acts 10, 13 - not one word of "repentance" was used and yet they did repent. Here is the link.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-repented-false-condemnation.html#post2626391
Here is the link that talks about the "fruits of repentance
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...abide-christ-john-15-1-8-a-9.html#post2648475
Now to this foolishness that the Holy Spirit told you the gospel of the grace of Christ and relying on His work is "another gospel" - is just plain nonsense just because you don't agree with the meaning of a word.
You are siding with a person that doesn't even believe we are born-again until we get a new body in the future sometime with his belief that grace -believers are "gnostic" and it is complete foolishness.
As far as 1 John addressing gnostics...here is what some sources have said about that subject. Again if this conflicts with your religious beliefs - then so be it.
Intro to 1 John — Biblica
Who are the deceivers 1 John is written against, mentioned in 2:26? - Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange
https://bible.org/seriespage/introduction-1-john
1 John 1:9 explained clearly.
https://carm.org/gnosticism
Gnosticism
In 1 Tim 6:4 Paul warns us not to get into disputes about words as they cause strife and envy, evil suspicions..etc ...so this is not profitable at all. If you have a different meaning for repentance then someone else - fine - go for it. I am not going to argue over you about it.
You can continue to slander me and the others on here all you want but we will just bless you back in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I believe in what Spurgeon says about repentance if you want a short version of it.
I have already told you now 3x times what repentance is. I'll just post links again as this is getting ridiculous to keep posting the same things over an over again.
Here are the word-for-word accounts of the real gospel being preached by Peter and Paul in Acts 10, 13 - not one word of "repentance" was used and yet they did repent. Here is the link.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-repented-false-condemnation.html#post2626391
Here is the link that talks about the "fruits of repentance
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...abide-christ-john-15-1-8-a-9.html#post2648475
Now to this foolishness that the Holy Spirit told you the gospel of the grace of Christ and relying on His work is "another gospel" - is just plain nonsense just because you don't agree with the meaning of a word.
You are siding with a person that doesn't even believe we are born-again until we get a new body in the future sometime with his belief that grace -believers are "gnostic" and it is complete foolishness.
As far as 1 John addressing gnostics...here is what some sources have said about that subject. Again if this conflicts with your religious beliefs - then so be it.
Intro to 1 John — Biblica
Who are the deceivers 1 John is written against, mentioned in 2:26? - Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange
https://bible.org/seriespage/introduction-1-john
1 John 1:9 explained clearly.
https://carm.org/gnosticism
Gnosticism
In 1 Tim 6:4 Paul warns us not to get into disputes about words as they cause strife and envy, evil suspicions..etc ...so this is not profitable at all. If you have a different meaning for repentance then someone else - fine - go for it. I am not going to argue over you about it.
You can continue to slander me and the others on here all you want but we will just bless you back in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
I believe in what Spurgeon says about repentance if you want a short version of it.
"Repentance grows as faith grows. Do not make any mistake about it; repentance is not a thing of days and weeks, a temporary penance to be got over as fast as possible! No; it is the grace of a lifetime, like faith itself. God's little children repent, and so do the young men and the fathers. Repentance is the inseparable companion of faith."
Sounds like we repent our whole lives! If you want to quote Spurgeon!
"Love for God is obedience; love for God is holiness. To love God and to love man is to be conformed to the image of Christ, and this is salvation."
So legalism or wisdom? Pretty wise, IMHO!
"It is not great faith, but true faith, that saves; and the salvation lies not in the faith, but in the Christ in whom faith trusts...It is not the measure of faith, but the sincerity of faith, which is the point to be considered."
I agree totally with this statement by Spurgeon. Salvation is not about emotions or the measure, it is totally about Christ.
But getting back to my question, I don't want links, quotes or posturing. So far the only thing you have said about repentance is that it means "changing your mind!" Great, now IN YOUR OWN WORDS, please tell me - what are you changing your mind from, and what are you changing your own mind to??
In case you do not understand the question, I'll give you my answer: from sin and evil and death, repenting of that, to: a relationship with Jesus Christ and obeying him and the Kingdom
of God.
No links, or quotes, please. Changing your mind. Changing it FROM what, TO what? Thanks in advance!