Let's Take a Deeper Look at this Hyper Stuff

[LaurenTM]

Some thoughts on the hyper grace threads and my conclusions

I have seen firsthand the changes that come with people who embrace this message.
“I joined a small group 3 years ago that went from having regular prayer meetings and living holy connected lives together to stating ‘prayer is a work and denies grace’ and ‘sin allows grace to do its great work.’ All of our prayer meetings and Bible studies were traded in for game-nights and nights out at the bar to ‘witness’ where many from the group got plastered ... all in the name of ‘grace.’
“My heart has been so broken for my dear friends who I walked so closely with. As a group, they have embraced sin as not only acceptable, but justified and desirable. I have been completely ostracized and mocked for my stand in holiness. They don’t even call me by my name anymore—they call me ‘Pharisee.’ Unfortunately, I have had to step completely away from these loved ones and am spending my life in prayer for them.”

I suggest that whatever took a hold of this group of believers, was not the grace of God.


and here are a couple of more:

Another wrote this:“I had a loved one who was an intense follower of hyper grace start to lie and cheat in his business. … He was a different person before he started following hyper grace. … He wasn’t greedy, in fact he was selfless, humble and very much in integrity. Also I can’t mention to him the fact that he lied and withheld info in order to steer people to invest ... Why? Because he says there is no condemnation in Christ. So no one is allowed to mention that aspect of his behavior to him … or else.”
A worship leader wrote to me, describing what is happening among prominent worship leaders he knows, where “the drinking partying thing is rampant. Totally excused because they were under grace not legalism.”
Of course, my hyper-grace friends will protest: “This is not the fruit of our message. Our message produces love for Jesus and holy living. These people obviously misunderstood what we were teaching.”

I may be more concerned now then I was before I started looking into these claims about so called hyper grace.

What I am finding out, is that people who have basically turned from God to live a lifestyle of sin and decadence are being labelled as hyper grace.

I don't 'follow' Joseph Prince or anyone really. I do watch certain speakers or teachers and have a very solid background in scripture and have been involved in ministry myself and it is not perfection or all about joy and love behind the scenes. The only thing I can say about that, is while I have never been involved in a 'stink' in leadership, I've witnessed enough of it, as well as the rumors, jealousy and backstabbing that sometimes goes on.

People condoling sin and getting drunk, committing adultery and cursing others is hardly the grace of God. So why are people calling it hyper grace?

Personally, I don't think ANYONE needs or can or should, point fingers at others and blame grace for sin.

Calling the sinful acts of people who have turned their backs on the gospel and have accepted a lie, HYPER GRACE is utter nonsense.

Let's call it what it is. IT IS SIN.

If a person depends on others for their relationship with God, sooner or later they are going to crash and burn. It's a law of God. God says 'cursed are those who trust in flesh and make it their strength.

Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5

If your relationship with God is THROUGH someone else, YOU DON'T HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD! so stop saying that you do! Throughout scripture, God begs...yes, literally begs...people to put their trust IN HIM.

Heresy hunters are a fact of life now and the web has given rise to more self proclaimed experts and 'Bible teachers' and self named prophets than the world has ever seen or God has ever called.

I have seen way too much on these forums concerning hyper grace and have been labelled hyper grace myself by people who are shooting in the dark at anything that they think moves.

I sense both fear and anger in many as the church is, in my humble opinion, convulsing and struggling to keep up with all the 'stuff' that is out there in a vain attempt to keep up with the masses and serve the people what they want and when they want it.

But you know, all God says about that is this:

For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water. Jeremiah 2:13


If you are depending on a teacher, a pastor or a best friend to feed your relationship with Jesus, you have a broken cistern on your hands. I'm not talking about counselling, or prayer or any other need. I am talking about your PERSONAL relationship with God wherein you call Him Father and He calls you His child.

If you reject the Holy Spirit, you are rejecting the living waters.

You, should be a person who seeks God with all of your heart...God says that is when you will find Him..when you put your heart into it and not just lip service.

Call sin what it is and stop calling grace hyper.

Again, acting like the world is not hyper grace...it is sin and should be recognized as such.


I will also tell anyone reading this, that I don't really care about personal attacks or having my 'motive' for making this thread questioned or being called a hypocrite or anything else.

Christians have already done about all they can do to make me turn from God, so I get where some of you are coming from.

However, God is merciful; He looks on the heart. That, is the terrain of God so if you judge me, that is doubt my sincerity here, I'll leave it up to God as to how and when He has your heart revealed to you.

Have respect for others and consider your words if you want to respond.

Discuss the topic and not the people in the thread.

Thanks

 

[mpaper345]

When people hold unto teachings that take away all responsibility from the believer,it is going to be trouble.

The truth is there is a responsibility on the believer,because the Holy Spirit is given to those who believe,so there is no excuse why people cannot be like Christ,abstaining from sin,for a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,they will have the power to abstain from sin.

But the responsibility falls on the believer for they have a choice whether to be led of the Spirit,or not.

People can confess Christ as Savior,but deny the Spirit,or receive the Spirit,and deny the Spirit later,that is why the Bible says they have a form of godliness,but deny the power thereof,not everyone that calls Jesus Lord is saved,work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,and if you do not continue in God's goodness,you will be cut off.

Paul said we do not void out the law through faith,but we establish the law,and the law is spiritual,good,holy,and just,the moral laws,laws of love.

Everybody has to live up to the law,but they could not do it in the Old Testament,but we can do it in the New Testament.

If you are led of the Spirit you are not under the law,means,you are abstaining from sin,so the law cannot touch you for prosecution.

The truth is anybody that engages in sin is not led of the Spirit,therefore they are under the law,and they do not establish the law,which is strange that they would think otherwise.

If the man Christ Jesus had to do what is right to be right with God,then humans have to do the same,and there is no excuse for they can have the Holy Spirit.

Salvation is a gift of God,by Jesus Christ,but we still have the responsibility to want to represent righteousness,and goodness,for God will not twist people's arms to live for Him.

Not everybody that claims Christ wants to represent righteousness,and goodness,and it is wrong to take away all responsibility from the believer,for it is a trap that the flesh takes advantage.

To me it appears as if people want to believe there is no responsibility on the believer is because they are lazy,do not want to face the fact that they might not make it if there is a responsibility,and believe according to the flesh.

1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

And that is what they believe that they cannot fall,that it is impossible for them to fall,and that is where the trouble,and hypocrisy start,because the flesh takes advantage,for they do not pay attention to their walk with God,and become relaxed,and with the attitude that they cannot fall,they will engage in sin with no worry about it,because they believe they cannot fall.

To me hypergrace is a fleshy interpretation,for some people like to interpret the scriptures according to the flesh,and they do not understand the Bible what it says about faith,and grace,for there is a condition that goes along with them.

If someone goes to jail for a crime,and they pay their debt to society for that crime,and are free,they do not get to go out and sin for free,but they still have to obey the law.

We are forgiven of our sins,but we still have to obey the law,and have a responsibility to obey the moral laws of God.

If there is a sale buy one get one free,they will take the attitude of getting that second one free,and overlook the buy one first part,and say that is not true,trying to get something for free,when there is a price to be paid to get that second one.

They say faith alone,and grace,and overlook the price to be paid to have those things applied in their life.

 

[Grace777x70]

I would say that these people that went out and started to live a lifestyle that is not in line with their true selves in the Lord are not actually living under grace at all and do not understand it.

The new creation in Christ does not want to sin nor is it compatible with it in any terms. These people will end up being the most miserable people on the planet until they start to really trust in the gospel of the grace of Christ - in which it transforms us by the Holy Spirit.

These examples are just people following their flesh after the law was lifted off of them and they do not yet understand the grace of God yet. They are baby Christians walking like mere men as Paul put it to the Corinthians.

The Lord will discipline ( child-train in Greek ) them and bring them back in line as He does to all His children.

True grace doesn't permit us to stay the same; after you know that you are not condemned - it empowers you to change.

Grace was never intended to allow us to keep on being the same as the true gospel of the grace of Christ is God's very empowerment through the life of Christ in and through us that transforms us - as we behold the glory of Christ as in a mirror - we see reflected back who we are in Him because we are one spirit with the Lord and the Spirit transforms us ( 2 Cor. 3:17-18 ) -

His life transforms us outwardly to reflect Christ that is in our inner man - created in righteousness and holiness. We "awake to righteousness and sin not". Awake means to come to ourselves - to sober up.

When we see that we are called to the true life in Christ and we know we can't work it up and can't accomplish it in our own strength but we desire the His life in us to come forth - that's when empowering grace comes to make our faith a reality in our lives.

Those are my thoughts on the OP.

 

[disciplemike]

for the people who say they are not under the law for righteousness, what does it matter?
seems to be a double-standard.

 

[Willie-T]

As usual we get the "these people who.......... " crowd warming up to accuse others of anything they can think of.

Yet, no one is actually showing anyone doing this.

 

[followjesus]

Some thoughts on the hyper grace threads and my conclusions



I suggest that whatever took a hold of this group of believers, was not the grace of God.


and here are a couple of more:




I may be more concerned now then I was before I started looking into these claims about so called hyper grace.

What I am finding out, is that people who have basically turned from God to live a lifestyle of sin and decadence are being labelled as hyper grace.

I don't 'follow' Joseph Prince or anyone really. I do watch certain speakers or teachers and have a very solid background in scripture and have been involved in ministry myself and it is not perfection or all about joy and love behind the scenes. The only thing I can say about that, is while I have never been involved in a 'stink' in leadership, I've witnessed enough of it, as well as the rumors, jealousy and backstabbing that sometimes goes on.

People condoling sin and getting drunk, committing adultery and cursing others is hardly the grace of God. So why are people calling it hyper grace?

Personally, I don't think ANYONE needs or can or should, point fingers at others and blame grace for sin.

Calling the sinful acts of people who have turned their backs on the gospel and have accepted a lie, HYPER GRACE is utter nonsense.

Let's call it what it is. IT IS SIN.

If a person depends on others for their relationship with God, sooner or later they are going to crash and burn. It's a law of God. God says 'cursed are those who trust in flesh and make it their strength.

Thus says the LORD, "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind And makes flesh his strength, And whose heart turns away from the LORD. Jeremiah 17:5

If your relationship with God is THROUGH someone else, YOU DON'T HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD! so stop saying that you do! Throughout scripture, God begs...yes, literally begs...people to put their trust IN HIM.

Heresy hunters are a fact of life now and the web has given rise to more self proclaimed experts and 'Bible teachers' and self named prophets than the world has ever seen or God has ever called.

I have seen way too much on these forums concerning hyper grace and have been labelled hyper grace myself by people who are shooting in the dark at anything that they think moves.

I sense both fear and anger in many as the church is, in my humble opinion, convulsing and struggling to keep up with all the 'stuff' that is out there in a vain attempt to keep up with the masses and serve the people what they want and when they want it.

But you know, all God says about that is this:

For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water. Jeremiah 2:13


If you are depending on a teacher, a pastor or a best friend to feed your relationship with Jesus, you have a broken cistern on your hands. I'm not talking about counselling, or prayer or any other need. I am talking about your PERSONAL relationship with God wherein you call Him Father and He calls you His child.

If you reject the Holy Spirit, you are rejecting the living waters.

You, should be a person who seeks God with all of your heart...God says that is when you will find Him..when you put your heart into it and not just lip service.

Call sin what it is and stop calling grace hyper.

Again, acting like the world is not hyper grace...it is sin and should be recognized as such.


I will also tell anyone reading this, that I don't really care about personal attacks or having my 'motive' for making this thread questioned or being called a hypocrite or anything else.

Christians have already done about all they can do to make me turn from God, so I get where some of you are coming from.

However, God is merciful; He looks on the heart. That, is the terrain of God so if you judge me, that is doubt my sincerity here, I'll leave it up to God as to how and when He has your heart revealed to you.

Have respect for others and consider your words if you want to respond.

Discuss the topic and not the people in the thread.

Thanks

I think people label it hyper grace because they are referring to a false teaching that Gods grace nullifies your actions, nullifies your responsibility to leep yourself in step with the spirit. the responsibility to repent or " rid yourselves" of the sinful acts listed throughout pauls writings. the hypergrace label came in my opinion because of the definition "unwarranted favor" that hypergrace label is because it is taught that you have no role in responding to Jesus, its all by grace so therefore youre saved regardless of how you live. that's the message of it, if you are putting all your heart and effort into following Gods word, then "your trusting in works" to save you, and therefore you have fallen from grace. its the misteachoing of Gods true Grace that is the label in my view, I prefer the gog " gospel of grace " they are so set on its all grace, that when your focused on Jesus and His teachings, then all the sudden your a heretic lol or a "self righteous person with no grace" just my own view of where that label came from, basically the doctrine makes Grace, God. and makes all by grace, opposed to putting all effort into Jesus, because effort is bad if your trying to follow then you've lost grace

 

[Willie-T]

I think people label it hyper grace because they are referring to a false teaching that Gods grace nullifies your actions, nullifies your responsibility to leep yourself in step with the spirit. the responsibility to repent or " rid yourselves" of the sinful acts listed throughout pauls writings. the hypergrace label came in my opinion because of the definition "unwarranted favor" that hypergrace label is because it is taught that you have no role in responding to Jesus, its all by grace so therefore youre saved regardless of how you live. that's the message of it, if you are putting all your heart and effort into following Gods word, then "your trusting in works" to save you, and therefore you have fallen from grace. its the misteachoing of Gods true Grace that is the label in my view, I prefer the gog " gospel of grace " they are so set on its all grace, that when your focused on Jesus and His teachings, then all the sudden your a heretic lol or a "self righteous person with no grace" just my own view of where that label came from, basically the doctrine makes Grace, God. and makes all by grace, opposed to putting all effort into Jesus, because effort is bad if your trying to follow then you've lost grace

But, try as you may, you DO NOT succeed in following Jesus as some sort of "jerked-straight" sinless robot. You still sin quite a bit. We all do. We try, and we get better at it... we sin less. But, as for me, I am thoroughly thrilled that every time I blow it (just as you do) God's grace already has the expected and anticipated sinning (expected and anticipated by God) covered and washed off me and my "record."

 

[LaurenTM]

for the people who say they are not under the law for righteousness, what does it matter?
seems to be a double-standard.

sorry, but this is just as dumb as a bucket of rocks

are you serious? I'm talking about sin and the lack of responsibility and the blame game

it obviously matters to me and others who have responded

 

[disciplemike]

sorry, but this is just as dumb as a bucket of rocks

are you serious? I'm talking about sin and the lack of responsibility and the blame game

it obviously matters to me and others who have responded

I agree things we do should matter.
But who gets to decide which ones matter?

 

[LaurenTM]

I think people label it hyper grace because they are referring to a false teaching that Gods grace nullifies your actions, nullifies your responsibility to leep yourself in step with the spirit. the responsibility to repent or " rid yourselves" of the sinful acts listed throughout pauls writings. the hypergrace label came in my opinion because of the definition "unwarranted favor" that hypergrace label is because it is taught that you have no role in responding to Jesus, its all by grace so therefore youre saved regardless of how you live. that's the message of it, if you are putting all your heart and effort into following Gods word, then "your trusting in works" to save you, and therefore you have fallen from grace. its the misteachoing of Gods true Grace that is the label in my view, I prefer the gog " gospel of grace " they are so set on its all grace, that when your focused on Jesus and His teachings, then all the sudden your a heretic lol or a "self righteous person with no grace" just my own view of where that label came from, basically the doctrine makes Grace, God. and makes all by grace, opposed to putting all effort into Jesus, because effort is bad if your trying to follow then you've lost grace

well if it's false teaching, then what is the fuss all about!!!

I'm not pretending I don't sin. I call Jesus Lord NOW because He IS. I don't make Him Lord and I don't call living a sinful lifestyle hyper grace

I call it SIN and that is what God calls it too

people are missing the truth of grace in their rush to hide behind what makes them feel safe

hiding behind scripture and expressing shock at the fall of believers is, frankly, appalling

where is the concern of the so called church? seems people would rather point knobby fingers and praise God they are not like that

and doesn't that sound familiar

 

[LaurenTM]

I agree things we do should matter.
But who gets to decide which ones matter?

not you

you are not contributing to the op

you are just doing what you usually do...kicking up dust in the dry earth of life before Christ

 

[LaurenTM]

And that is what they believe that they cannot fall,that it is impossible for them to fall,and that is where the trouble,and hypocrisy start,because the flesh takes advantage,for they do not pay attention to their walk with God,and become relaxed,and with the attitude that they cannot fall,they will engage in sin with no worry about it,because they believe they cannot fall.

who believes that? who? I keep asking who and I am positive it is not me nor anyone else who understands what grace is

as I tried to state in my op, following a person or a teaching is not a relationship with God and that type of dedication will result in a crash and burn because it is NOT what is required

here is an excerpt from my op

I sense both fear and anger in many as the church is, in my humble opinion, convulsing and struggling to keep up with all the 'stuff' that is out there in a vain attempt to keep up with the masses and serve the people what they want and when they want it.

But you know, all God says about that is this:

For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water. Jeremiah 2:13


If you are depending on a teacher, a pastor or a best friend to feed your relationship with Jesus, you have a broken cistern on your hands. I'm not talking about counselling, or prayer or any other need. I am talking about your PERSONAL relationship with God wherein you call Him Father and He calls you His child.

If you reject the Holy Spirit, you are rejecting the living waters.

You, should be a person who seeks God with all of your heart...God says that is when you will find Him..when you put your heart into it and not just lip service.

Call sin what it is and stop calling grace hyper.

Again, acting like the world is not hyper grace...it is sin and should be recognized as such.

does that sound like someone who thinks it is ok to sin?

 

[LaurenTM]

Grace was never intended to allow us to keep on being the same as the true gospel of the grace of Christ is God's very empowerment through the life of Christ in and through us that transforms us - as we behold the glory of Christ as in a mirror - we see reflected back who we are in Him because we are one spirit with the Lord and the Spirit transforms us ( 2 Cor. 3:17-18 )

that's right

which is why I am now trying to get a better grip on all of these accusations

grace is not sin

saying hyper grace allows sin is false if grace is not sin

the term hyper before the word grace is as much about people being afraid to touch the reality of what God is revealing is actually going on in church as it is about the fact of the cowardice of way too many who say they are Christians

sin is sin...it is not hyper grace

the examples in my op are supposedly from real people. if people are falling into such deep sin, it would seem to be either a deep deception in church or they were never really saved...I always hesitate to state never saved though, cause I have seen too many I thought were truly saved, say and do things that are nothing short of deception

there exists a sickness in believers that seems to reveal a deep need to be better than the next person and to find relief in one's own failings by pointing out the sin and failings in others

that, is not salvation

 

[FreeNChrist]

well if it's false teaching, then what is the fuss all about!!!

I'm not pretending I don't sin. I call Jesus Lord NOW because He IS. I don't make Him Lord and I don't call living a sinful lifestyle hyper grace

I call it SIN and that is what God calls it too

people are missing the truth of grace in their rush to hide behind what makes them feel safe

hiding behind scripture and expressing shock at the fall of believers is, frankly, appalling

where is the concern of the so called church? seems people would rather point knobby fingers and praise God they are not like that

and doesn't that sound familiar

You're such a breath of fresh air. I love you sister, I really do.

 

[Magenta]

there exists a sickness in believers that seems to reveal a deep need to be better than the next person and to find relief in one's own failings by pointing out the sin and failings in others

This is very insightful, and a sad state of affairs.

 

[Grace777x70]

the examples in my op are supposedly from real people. if people are falling into such deep sin, it would seem to be either a deep deception in church or they were never really saved...I always hesitate to state never saved though, cause I have seen too many I thought were truly saved, say and do things that are nothing short of deception

there exists a sickness in believers that seems to reveal a deep need to be better than the next person and to find relief in one's own failings by pointing out the sin and failings in others

that, is not salvation

These ones are walking after the flesh but one of two things will happened to them

1) they will come out of this fleshly living either by the disciplining ( child-training ) of the Lord or sometimes their sinning created a death situation here on this earth.

2) Look at the guy in 1 Cor chapter 5 that had his father's wife. Paul took exception to that one situation ( I think it is because they were boasting in it - Paul said - maybe boasting they could sin all they want because of grace? )

..at any rate - Paul said "I have decided with the power of the Lord Jesus to deliver such a one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord."..Your boasting is not good"

These seem to be very rare cases and only was done by some mature Christian that has authority in that given place. What it means to "hand over " someone to satan...I don't know that part.

 

[LaurenTM]

You're such a breath of fresh air. I love you sister, I really do.

what you are looking at, actually, is me feeling like I have been caught in a net and I struggle to get out

all these labels and a desire to control BY labeling...I wonder, does God stamp us with some identifier because He cannot take the time to really know us? does He shove us in a drawer like wounded butterflies who have no way of escape and have lost all possibility of becoming who and how much they could be?

God encourages the use of our brain...renew your mind He says...in His word

He says I call you by name...I know how many hairs are on your head and I see the sparrow fall...

This is the God we purport to know. He is not a collector of numbers and He does not desire to make us all the same

thank you for your kind words

 

[LaurenTM]

This is very insightful, and a sad state of affairs.

I don't want to be that person and yet at times I have been that person

 

[LaurenTM]

These ones are walking after the flesh but one of two things will happened to them

1) they will come out of this fleshly living either by the disciplining ( child-training ) of the Lord or sometimes their sinning created a death situation here on this earth.

2) Look at the guy in 1 Cor chapter 5 that had his father's wife. Paul took exception to that one situation ( I think it is because they were boasting in it - Paul said - maybe boasting they could sin all they want because of grace? )

..at any rate - Paul said "I have decided with the power of the Lord Jesus to deliver such a one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh so that his spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord."..Your boasting is not good"

These seem to be very rare cases and only was done by some mature Christian that has authority in that given place. What it means to "hand over " someone to satan...I don't know that part.

sounds like the worst kind of chastisement that can be meted out

we have to allow God to be God and stop judging everyone we think is disappointing God

we judge the sin...very easy to see and do that...but we cross the line when we imagine we are better

nowhere in scripture will we find it written that obedience equals perfection in God's eyes

yet, it is always better to obey

taking all of scripture into counsel, we find that obedience is Jesus example and to obey is better than to sacrifice

sacrifice indicates death and we cannot atone for ourselves

 

[Sac49]

Ok so i have returned to CC and i see all this stuff about "hyper grace". Since i study Gods Word by Gods Word i am a bit confused on this thing. Now yes i do read other writings to help me understand a bit but none of these other "teachers" mention anything about this. Let me see if my understanding on this is correct.

Because of Gods Grace and because of our sins being forgiven and paid for we can commit sin without reprocussion because of Gods Grace.

Is that the basic idea behind this "hyper grace" "movement"? Am i understanding this correctly? If i am, doesnt Paul tell us that the grace of God is not a reason to sin but a reason not to sin?