Reverse the charges

Locutus · Sep 17, 2017

I see the false charge of "replacement" theology is being bandied around against preterism along with the charge of "antisemitism".

Wrong - there is nothing in preterism that is antisemitic.

This charge of "replacement theology" is a false charge leveled at preterism by dispensationalists who claim the body of Christ will be replaced by a nation possessing the dirt in Palestine.

That is replacement theology if ever I saw one.

Preterists state that the church as the new Israel started by the apostles and with Christ as it's cornerstone is the God authored plan as revealed by the prophets.

The physical nation of Israel as of the 1st century is no longer a nation "special" to God as it's shadow/type function is fulfilled in the body of Christ and the nationhood of believers.

1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Isa 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name.

The slaying of Isa 65:15 was the judgment on apostate Judah/Israel for shedding the blood of the prophets and was meted out in the war of 66-70 AD by Christ's instrument the Romans armies.

This was the termination of the covenant with the flesh nation of Israel. Any supposed descendant of the Jew's/Israelites that survived the war of the 1st century AD are more than welcome to be baptized into Christ.

Nehemiah6 · Sep 17, 2017

Locutus said:

Clearly you are not very familiar with Dispensationalism, since that is certainly NOT what it teaches. Dispensationalism follows the Bible in that the eternal home of the Body of Christ -- the Church -- is the heavenly city New Jerusalem. At the same time, after the second coming of Christ and the regathering of Jews from all over the world to Him (and their conversion) Christ will establish redeemed and restored Israel on earth. And it will be more than "the dirt of Palestine" since Israel will stretch from the Nile to the Euphrates. That is in the Bible if you care to check it out.

Preterism teaches that everything in the book of Revelation was fulfilled around AD 70. Consequently there is no provision for Israel to be established under Christ, and the Church in fact has replaced Israel. So that is Replacement Theology. Both Preterism and Replacement Theology are wrong.

loveme1 · Sep 17, 2017

Stay tuned because those trying to grab what they believe is their birthright while in unbelief and disobedience will see what they have been playing harlot with in due season.. deceived.

The New Covenant is for all people that Repent and Believe. There is no difference to GOD. They broke their Covenant so I don't want to believe the GOD does not Break the Covenant.. no He does not... It is the creation who need to Repent and Believe. The Creator is always Faithful and True.. long suffering.

And I am still wondering who those who say they are Jews but are not but the synagogue of Satan are... but in GOD we Trust.

Bogadile · Sep 17, 2017

While I agree that there is no salvation outside of Christ, I do not think God is done with Israel just yet.

Locutus · Sep 17, 2017

Bogadile said:

Based on what Boga?

Bogadile · Sep 17, 2017

Locutus said:

Romans 11.

Locutus · Sep 17, 2017

I assume you are alluding to:

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

What makes you think Paul is projecting this 1900 years into the future and that it demands a national revival on the dirt of Palestine?

Bogadile · Sep 17, 2017

Locutus said:

This:

Romans 11:25 "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,"

Locutus · Sep 17, 2017

Bogadile said:

Regardless of how we understand "the full number of the Gentiles" the facts are that the elect had obtained the promises:

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

So if the elect of Israel had "obtained it" when Paul wrote then it can't be about a physical kingdom based on dirt in Palestine can it?

Bogadile · Sep 17, 2017

Locutus said:

Sure it can. There are Israelites in Israel right now, and a remnant of them will be saved. A third if I recall correctly, it says that in Zechariah.

Locutus · Sep 17, 2017

Bogadile said:

So there was a remnant back when Paul wrote, and then according to you there is another remnant waiting to be saved "soon".

You can't have it both ways, a remnant and all Israel saved.

And you have failed to address what Paul said - the elect had obtained "what Israel sought after" - did they get a physical dirt based kingdom?

Plainly the answer is no - so the promises of God were not about a physical kingdom.

Your logic is not logical...

stonesoffire · Sep 17, 2017

Locutus said:

Locutus

They are now speaking Hebrew. So when armies surround them and they begin to call out...Yeshu Yeshu Meschiah...who do you think is going to come?

And what pray tell, is Palestine?

Locutus · Sep 17, 2017

stonesoffire said:

I don't think speaking Hebrew has anything to do with what's happening in Palestine. I've heard the bogus claim that this is something to do with it:

Zep 3:9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve him with one consent.

That's just day dreamin'...and grasping at straws "theology".

The armies already did their work in the war of 66-70 AD, Jerusalem has been surrounded by armies numerous times since.

There is only one significant "surrounding" that has any relevance to prophecy and that was in the 1st century AD:

(Luke 21:20 KJV) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

I don't see a verse that says when "ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies" then know that it's rebuilding is nigh...

Bogadile · Sep 17, 2017

Locutus said:

There is a remnant always, in Paul's day, in the 1500s, and today, and will be in the future.
The all saved refers to the true Israel, the remnant. Not all are Israel that are of Israel, but from ISAAC is the promise. As you know.

And the "physical dirt" as you call it, is an everlasting covenant with Abraham and his descendants, and yes I am aware God has fulfilled the land promises in Joshua 21:43-45.

Also, Palestine is not real, it does not exist. The land is called Israel.

dcontroversal · Sep 17, 2017

Bogadile said:

AMEN...they will collectively look upon him whom they pierced and acknowledge and then weep as one weeps for the loss of a first born son.....!

Locutus · Sep 17, 2017

Bogadile said:

Call it what you will, as regarding Abraham, he was not looking for a dirt based promise according to Hebrews:

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Heb 11:14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

According to the above those that died in faith including Abraham sought after a "heavenly country" not one based on dirt.

And we know that those of the 1st century were receiving the heavenly country because they had already come to Mount Zion:

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.

Do you think they were standing on a dirt based city in the middle east?

This is where dispensational "theology" falls apart.

Replacement theology espoused by dispensationalism has the true heavenly country replaced by a dirt based country contrary to the scripture.

1 Cor 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

You and the dispensationalists have things in disarray. You have the physical going to the spiritual and then back to the physical.

wolfwint · Sep 17, 2017

Locutus said:

Lock back the history. the promisses in f.e. in Joel 2 (23-32) for the folk of Israel have not been fulfilled

Be glad then, you children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he has given you the former rain faithfully, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. 24 And the threshing floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil. 25 And I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten, the crawling locust, and the consuming locust, and the cutting locust, my great army which I sent among you. 26 And you shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, who has dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. 27 And you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. 28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD comes. 32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD has said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

So how you can say it is fullfilled?

Rosemaryx · Sep 17, 2017

Is Israel not always the apple of Gods eye...Zechariah 2:8 For this is what the LORD Almighty says: "After the Glorious One has sent me against the nations that have plundered you--for whoever touches you touches the apple of his eye--
I was reading something the other day that God loves Israel very much, that`s why we must love towards the Jews who have rejected Christ as their Saviour, we must not say anything bad towards Israel, I do not fully understand yet...xox...

Locutus · Sep 17, 2017

Rosemaryx said:

Not really, and it depends on what "Israel" we are talking about.

The church is Israel, built of the foundation of the prophets (so yes the church is the "apple of God's eye"):

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.

If you think that flesh descendants of the 1st century are "the apple" then you've failed to understand the above totally.

The ultimate purpose of God was to bring both Jew/Israel and Gentile into one body in Christ not to bring about a dirt based theocracy.

Paul said the Gentiles in the body of Christ were also receiving the promises:

Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands.

Eph 2:12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

If they were being made part of the covenants of promise back when Paul wrote how can there be any further promises?

Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

So according to Paul the broken off branches maybe grafted back in - but the only place to be grafted back in is into the church that Christ built not some dirt based kingdom in the middle east.

stonesoffire · Sep 17, 2017

stonesoffire said:

Yeshu means salvation...is the root of Yeshua...and they will and they do call for Meschiah even now. They were dispersed into the nations as prophesied, and now returned to their own land. As prophesied.

And am wondering if you are one of my cousins from the Church of God, Anderson, Ind based? lol

I would put a tongue out smiley back at you but still have 'net from phone. At least it works.

No such thing as Palestine...

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