The Hidden Hand
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Like you LBG I have seen things I ABSOLUTELY KNOW came from God, If God wanted to he could and can use anybody to get done what needs to be done, however, I can see zones questions as many ppl abuse this and take all the credit for themselves " look what I have done" etc, when in truth , they dont have the faintest clue. Sadly, I have seen ppl proclaim someone was to be healed , and then the person wasnt, and then you got the ppl on the outside lookin in, and it has the potential to destroy what they may have thought, thats a VERY SCAREY thing to me. My sis in law whom I was very close to died of cancer, I prayed , Lord, heal her and let her be a walkin, talkin testimony of YOUR WORK.....OR...please Lord, help me get her ready, meaning, study with her, pray with her, help her love and accept you, as at this time she was not walkin with the lord. After a couple of months, when she started askin me to come study with her, and studying herself, having LONG discussions about the Lord, and alot of praying, I then understood God wanted me to help get her ready, and thats exactly what I done. Now, someone close to her family, told them she wasnt gonna die, it would be bad, but she wasnt gonna die, that was a vision he got, or something he got spiritually ( if Im not mis-quoting him, and i wouldnt dare slander someone that way), I was kinda shocked by this, because as far as I knew this man wasnt even in church anymore, due to hurt feelings etc, I dont really know, it was none of my business, to make a long story short, her family believed this................and the months went by, and she wasted away physically as this is what cancer does, when its that far progressed. Im not sayin all this to dispute ANYTHING, we just need to be careful and ALWAYS ask GODS will, even if it hurts, before we worry about our own. And then on the flip side, I have seen my own mother, healed of a brain tumor, at a church service, and its never been mentioned again, this was like 25 years ago, from an evangalist shes never laid eyes on again to my knowledge, AND I KNOW ITS REAL, I watched her cry every night cause her head hurt so bad, scary thing for a lil kid to see, and BOOM...NO MORE. GONE. I also had drs tell me my first born would be born with a heart retardation and die befor she was 1...so, I had my family pray, i walked around with a prayer cloth pinned to my shirt for 7 months, shes healthy as a horse, born peerfect, 20 years old, and let me tell ya, GOD DONE IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It is great to hear of your mother's healing, and also your first born with a healthy heart. God is in the healing business today as he was 2000 years ago isn't he.
I know what you mean about people abusing this and wanting the credit for themselves, it happens. I also know of people who tell others they have been told the person will get well when they don't. It puts a lot of people off, I know
There was a man in a church I went to many years ago who had been ill for a long time. Shortly before he died a woman stood up in church and told everyone God had told her he would get better.
But I guess things like this happened in NT times too. But God never changes. What he did then he will do now, I am convinced of it, and all the glory must go to him
Thank you for sharing what you have
I know what you mean about people abusing this and wanting the credit for themselves, it happens. I also know of people who tell others they have been told the person will get well when they don't. It puts a lot of people off, I know
There was a man in a church I went to many years ago who had been ill for a long time. Shortly before he died a woman stood up in church and told everyone God had told her he would get better.
But I guess things like this happened in NT times too. But God never changes. What he did then he will do now, I am convinced of it, and all the glory must go to him
Thank you for sharing what you have
Charisma with Latter Rain
John 10:1-4
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep…And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.”
~
In May 1960, Episcopalian minister Dennis Bennett told his Van Nuys, California parishioners that he had begun speaking in tongues after baptism in the Holy Spirit. Many mark this as the beginning of the present-day Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. The Pentecostal /Latter Rain movements have never ceased, rather, merely changed faces. According to some authors the reporting and proselytizing for the new movement within the American church and worldwide, was handled personally by David du Plessis of AOG. However, Harald Bredesen helped publish Dennis Bennett’s and du Plessis’ Trinity newsletter.
Jamie Buckingham, through the magazine Logos Journal introduced many of the charismatic leaders to a wider audience. Leaders such as: “Dennis Bennett, Bob Mumford, Harold Hill, Merlin Carothers, Iverna Tompkins and Judson Cornwall, to name a few… He edited the Logos Journal for a time and wrote 14 books for the company, including the best-sellers Shout it From the Housetops (1972), written with CBN founder Pat Robertson, and Daughter of Destiny (1976), the story of Kathryn Kuhlman. Jamie also served on the original board of directors for Logos, alongside such charismatic leaders as David du Plessis, Bob Slosser and Gen. Ralph Haines.” 6 Buckingham, along with many others, fully supported and endorsed Kathryn Kuhlman, who committed adultery and whose ministry was to unite denominations including Protestant with Catholic.7
~
In 1986, the ever ecumenical Oral Roberts formed the International Charismatic Bible Ministries (ICBM) 13 ICBM advertises last years Conference audio and videotape which shows speakers/video workshops to have included “Bill Basansky & Rodney Howard-Browne” teaching, “Church Growth/Home Cell Ministries” and Oral Roberts & Benny Hinn working together. Their new conference is slated for June 20-22, 2000. John 10:1-4
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep…And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.”
~
In May 1960, Episcopalian minister Dennis Bennett told his Van Nuys, California parishioners that he had begun speaking in tongues after baptism in the Holy Spirit. Many mark this as the beginning of the present-day Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. The Pentecostal /Latter Rain movements have never ceased, rather, merely changed faces. According to some authors the reporting and proselytizing for the new movement within the American church and worldwide, was handled personally by David du Plessis of AOG. However, Harald Bredesen helped publish Dennis Bennett’s and du Plessis’ Trinity newsletter.
Jamie Buckingham, through the magazine Logos Journal introduced many of the charismatic leaders to a wider audience. Leaders such as: “Dennis Bennett, Bob Mumford, Harold Hill, Merlin Carothers, Iverna Tompkins and Judson Cornwall, to name a few… He edited the Logos Journal for a time and wrote 14 books for the company, including the best-sellers Shout it From the Housetops (1972), written with CBN founder Pat Robertson, and Daughter of Destiny (1976), the story of Kathryn Kuhlman. Jamie also served on the original board of directors for Logos, alongside such charismatic leaders as David du Plessis, Bob Slosser and Gen. Ralph Haines.” 6 Buckingham, along with many others, fully supported and endorsed Kathryn Kuhlman, who committed adultery and whose ministry was to unite denominations including Protestant with Catholic.7
~
Their slogan has been
Love and Unity through Signs and Wonders. 14
The ICBM conducts “leadership conferences,”15 and is a “coalition of charismatic leaders,” many of whom are dominionists.16 While noting that the names change occasionally, Al Dager cites an Ad for Charismatic Bible Ministries, in Charisma, May 1987 showing that the original officers and trustees were: Oral Roberts* -Chairman; Ken Copeland* -Secretary; Jack Hayford* - Vice Chairman; Billy Joe Dougherty* - Treasurer; Paul Yonggi Cho—International Honorary Chairman; Executive Committee Members: Charles Green, Marilyn Hickey, Karl Strader [Bolding added]17
http://www.pfo.org/bhnecro.htm
KATHRYN KUHLMAN
The very influential woman evangelist healer KATHRYN KUHLMAN (1907-1976) is another example of the heresy and exaggeration which has characterized the latter rain movement. In the late 1940s Kuhlman began to teach that physical healing was provided in the atonement of Jesus Christ. In 1947 she preached that the miracles of Pentecost should be experienced today, claiming that Christians today are able to perform the same miracles Jesus performed, and even greater miracles. "Every church should be experiencing the miracles of Pentecost. Every church should be seeing the healings of the Book of Acts" (Kathryn Kuhlman, cited from Jamie Buckingham, Daughter of Destiny, p. 104).
She published a booklet entitled "The Lord's Healing Touch."
Kuhlman was never able to do the miracles of Jesus, though. It was alleged that there were documented organic healings which took place in some Kuhlman meetings, but they were very few, compared to the claims, certainly no more than the healings which are experienced by Christians who believe the sign gifts have ceased and who pray for healing, trusting God to do His perfect will. In his book Healing: A Doctor in Search of a Miracle, Dr. William Nolen dedicates an entire chapter to his experiences investigating Kuhlman healing crusades.
Though sympathetic to Kuhlman as a person, Nolen was unable to document medically even one case of physical healing, though large numbers of them were claimed. At the time of his investigation, Dr. Nolen was chief of surgery at Meeker County Hospital in Litchfield, Minnesota. A reporter who covered a Kuhlman healing crusade in Pittsburgh's Carnegie Music Hall in 1948 testified: "For every one who has proclaimed a cure, a score more have faded off into the darkness, as miserable and heartsick as when they came" (Wayne Warner, The Woman Behind the Miracles: Kathryn Kuhlman, p. 145).
Kurt Koch was a renowned evangelical researcher into the occult. In his book Occult ABC he describes his research into Kathryn Kuhlman's healing ministry. He carefully followed up on a list of 28 cases of alleged healings in the Minneapolis, Minnesota, area. These cases were submitted to him by the Kuhlman organization as the best examples of healings which had occurred under her ministrations. The following is the summary of his findings: "Ten had not been healed, seven had experienced an improvement in their condition, eleven had diseases in which the mind can play an important part. In the whole of this extensive report, there is not one clear case of healing from an organic disease" (Kurt Koch, Occult ABC, Grand Rapids: Kregel Publishers, 1981).
Kuhlman taught that people could be healed and then lose their healing if they failed to come up to the stage and testify.
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/strange1.htm
THE STRANGE HISTORY OF PENTECOSTALISM
Just a couple of things
As I have previously said. KK married a man who divorced his wife. He left his wife and two children to marry her.
Jamie Buckingham in Daughter of Destiny says it was not just sin, but grievous sin. Six years later she was walking down a street. All of a sudden she came to a sign saying 'Dead End'.
She knew that was where her life was at. She said she had to choose between the man she loved and the God she loved. She chose God and left her husband, never to see him again.
She yielded the rest of her life to God, never to remarry, and never to have children. So she was a wpman who committed grievous sin, but a loving and compassionate God forgave her, and because she then fully yielded her life to him, he was able to use even someone who had sinned as she had to the degree he did
Jamie Buckingham wrote R'un Baby Run' and many other noted books.
Just a mention concerning Merlin Carothers
When I was 19 I returned to God but thought it was useless for me to be a Christian because of all my faults and failings. I went to visit a man who prayed with me. He asked me afterwards if I felt any different, I honestly replied
'No'
He thought for a moment and asked me if I would read 'Prison to Praise' by Merlin Carothers. I did, and then I read the follow up book 'Power in Praise'.
I cannot explain here how those books blessed me and helped me in my Christian life. I will always be grateful to that man for being led to ask me to read them
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For Our God Lives!
I think if I remember correctly there was a discussion as to whether satan could heal people. The concensus was he could not
No miracle was allowed into KK books unless it passed the following criteria
The healing was at least five years old, with no reoccurence of the illness
Two doctors/physicians had to publically state the former condition of the person healed
The medical records had to be released
So if satan did not heal those people and God did. Would God heal people if kk was not serving him asnd doing what he wanted her to do and therefore following his will for her life? Would he show his power to that extent in her services if she were not in the ministry He wanted her to be in?
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A
God heals according to the faith of the people being healed. Satan and His minions claim they are responsible but they lie. I don't know the lady so I don't know which she is but if you see a healing that is from God but people jumping up and claiming it is from them and not giving God the glory, well that is Satan and pride.
does she claim that God heals or that SHE heals?
does she claim that God heals or that SHE heals?
You are correct of course
When people were healed some wanted to thank her for their healing. She stood back and said
'Do not thank me, thank God, your healing was nothnig to do with me, the glory is all God's'
During a service when the annointing was on her she would often call out healings that had taken place while people sat in their seats
KK was always keen to emphasise she had had nothing to do with the healing, it was God
She at one time believed people were only healed according to their faith. But a man went to a service who was an athiest and he was healed to.
I guess we cannot set rules for what God will do. He does as He wishes
When people were healed some wanted to thank her for their healing. She stood back and said
'Do not thank me, thank God, your healing was nothnig to do with me, the glory is all God's'
During a service when the annointing was on her she would often call out healings that had taken place while people sat in their seats
KK was always keen to emphasise she had had nothing to do with the healing, it was God
She at one time believed people were only healed according to their faith. But a man went to a service who was an athiest and he was healed to.
I guess we cannot set rules for what God will do. He does as He wishes
KK never preached that Christians can perform miracles. There is a bit on Dr. Nolen in Daughter of Destiny
Medically verified
A woman went in an ambulance to one service and was laid on a stretcher on ther side of the platform. She was riddled with cancer and had at best six weeks to live. She walked out of the service and did not need the ambulance to go home, totally healed
Medically verified
A man in ww2 had been shot through the top of his hip. A ball socket had been damaged or shot away I cannot remember which. He had numerous operations and struggled on crutches into one of her services. He was on welfare for life
He left the service withlout crutches and went back to work after the doctors gave him the all clear. I could go on and on
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He heals today as he did then. And he uses whoever he chooses to use for his work, even the most imperfect of souls
Of course she had her detractors. But rather just read and accept what others write, I would tyink it would be better for you to read the book yourself, then make up your own mind
BTW
Some of the most well known ministers in the US were happy to sit and be under her preaching
Medically verified
A woman went in an ambulance to one service and was laid on a stretcher on ther side of the platform. She was riddled with cancer and had at best six weeks to live. She walked out of the service and did not need the ambulance to go home, totally healed
Medically verified
A man in ww2 had been shot through the top of his hip. A ball socket had been damaged or shot away I cannot remember which. He had numerous operations and struggled on crutches into one of her services. He was on welfare for life
He left the service withlout crutches and went back to work after the doctors gave him the all clear. I could go on and on
God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He heals today as he did then. And he uses whoever he chooses to use for his work, even the most imperfect of souls
Of course she had her detractors. But rather just read and accept what others write, I would tyink it would be better for you to read the book yourself, then make up your own mind
BTW
Some of the most well known ministers in the US were happy to sit and be under her preaching
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The opportunity has not come up.
Not at all. Do you?
I was, I suppose.
Which one?
Not a single one. That a new one for me. It doesn't, of course.
Without researching it, no, I don't know.
No. It's old testament, so I know it's not addressed to us.
zone, calm down. Timothy is a leadership epistle. It contains truths and principles that can be applied by Christian leaders.
Yes, but you apparently do not believe it.
Because you would not believe it.
yes
None / I don't know.
None / I don't know
None. Why do you ask?
Jesus and Peter. Nobody else.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
zone, if I posted web pages, or told you of specific instances of miracles, you would not believe. You would find -something- wrong, some reason why it was a farce.
I'll keep you posted.
Not at all. Do you?
I was, I suppose.
Which one?
Not a single one. That a new one for me. It doesn't, of course.
Without researching it, no, I don't know.
No. It's old testament, so I know it's not addressed to us.
zone, calm down. Timothy is a leadership epistle. It contains truths and principles that can be applied by Christian leaders.
Yes, but you apparently do not believe it.
Because you would not believe it.
yes
None / I don't know.
None / I don't know
None. Why do you ask?
Jesus and Peter. Nobody else.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
zone, if I posted web pages, or told you of specific instances of miracles, you would not believe. You would find -something- wrong, some reason why it was a farce.
I'll keep you posted.