Man’s inability to submit to God and do good is total.

[phil36]

Romans 8:5-9

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but
those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the
flesh [literally: “the mind of the flesh”] is death, but the mind set on the Spirit [literally:
“the mind of the Spirit”] is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh [literally:
“the mind of the flesh”] is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of
God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in
you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

John 3:5-7

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he
cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that
which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be
born again.’”

Romans 6:17-18

But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the
heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from
sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Ephesians 2:1-5

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according
to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit
that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived
in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by
nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His
great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made
us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

Ephesians 4:17-18

So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the
Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding,
excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the
hardness of their heart.

John 6:44

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him
up on the last day.

1 Corinthians 2:14

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Jeremiah 17:9

The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately [incurably] sick; who can
understand it?
​

Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of
the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.



Yet many people will lead you to believe man is totally capable to do as he pleases.!!!!!!!!!​

 

[Abiding]

Exactly...i always hear people say we have free will. Hmmm...choice maybe. Being as we are totally dependant beings it would be smart to turn that will over to the One we are dependant on. Isa.1:3a The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his masters crib, but......

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

I completely agree with your initial post. Unfortunately several of today's denominations have turned the concept of total depravity into a license to sin which completely unscriptural. Just because we are sinners saved by grace doesn't mean we have to remain that way for the rest of our lives here on earth.

While it is true that every person is born with a sinfully selfish nature, the bible teaches that by placing our trust in God and by submitting to the work of the Holy Spirit, we can walk in victory over the flesh. Victory over the flesh is not something we can do for ourselves, but the work of the Holy Spirit in us. All man's role in the process is to humble themselves and submit which is the fruit of faith, nothing more.

Obedience to the will and word of God is the evidence of our faith. We do not obey because we believe that our obedience might somehow save us. The bible teaches us otherwise. We obey because we have already put our complete trust in God and his word, which is Christ. In essence, obedience is the evidence of our faith, a faith which originates from God himself made manifest through Christ.

 

[Scotth1960]

Romans 8:5-9

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but
those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the
flesh [literally: “the mind of the flesh”] is death, but the mind set on the Spirit [literally:
“the mind of the Spirit”] is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh [literally:
“the mind of the flesh”] is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of
God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in
you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

John 3:5-7

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he
cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that
which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be
born again.’”

Romans 6:17-18

But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the
heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from
sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Ephesians 2:1-5

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according
to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit
that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived
in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by
nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His
great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made
us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).

Ephesians 4:17-18

So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the
Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding,
excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the
hardness of their heart.

John 6:44

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him
up on the last day.

1 Corinthians 2:14

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Jeremiah 17:9

Dear Phil36,
The actual verse is Jeremiah 15:5 in the Greek OT LXX Septuagint, and this is how it should correctly be translated (OSB, Orthodox Study Bible, page 1130, q.v.). "The heart is deep beyond all things, and it is the man. Even so, who can know him?" The KJV version translation is faulty and exhibits an Augustinian-Calvinist bias; also, it follows the Hebrew text, which is corrupted and incorrect by the unbelieving Jews; the believing Jews, the Church of both Jews and Gentiles, follows the Old Testament Greek translation made 200 some years before Christ. It is the Bible of Christ and His Church. Not the Masoretic text, which dates from 800 AD. Some of the Dead Sea Scrolls is correct, and agrees with the Septuagint in verses like Isaiah 53:11. The Dead Sea Scrolls retains some of the older readings of the original Hebrew text, which has been lost and suppressed by the Jews. So the best Jewish Bible is the Greek Old Testament translation from the lost Hebrew OT text. Take care. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington June 2011 AD

The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately [incurably] sick; who can
understand it?
​

Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of
the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.



Yet many people will lead you to believe man is totally capable to do as he pleases.!!!!!!!!!​

Dear Phil36,
If man's ability to submit to God and do good is total, then not even God can save anyone, since people are totally unable to believe. If people can believe, they will believe, with God's grace. If people are totally evil, they never repent. Some people repent, so these people obviously are able to believe. Of course it all depends on God's mercy. But God does not force people to disbelieve. Calvinism disagrees, and teaches that God causes all people to sin. Obviously the Calvinist/Augustinian doctrine of original sin is heresy.
Some people are actually born again because they believe in God (John 3:16). Therefore, Calvinism is false, for if Calvinism is true, God is equally author of righteousness and sin, and God is working against Himself by willing to make people deny and defy His will. He forces them to disobey. That is not something God can do in His righteous character. God cannot promote or condone or cause sin. Calvinism disagrees, since it teaches God is the cause of everything that comes to be, He must also be the author of sin.
How far from God's truth Calvinism goes when it quotes St. Paul out of context!
We read in Scripture:
"Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuferring of our Lord is salvation - as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." 2 Peter 3:14-16 NKJV
Calvinism twists the Scriptures to its own destruction, denying free will. Of course man's choice of God depends on God's mercy and prevenient grace. Calvinism goes beyond this and makes God the author of sin and of damnation.
Take care. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington June 2011 AD

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Dear Phil36,
If man's ability to submit to God and do good is total, then not even God can save anyone, since people are totally unable to believe. If people can believe, they will believe, with God's grace. If people are totally evil, they never repent. Some people repent, so these people obviously are able to believe. Of course it all depends on God's mercy. But God does not force people to disbelieve. Calvinism disagrees, and teaches that God causes all people to sin. Obviously the Calvinist/Augustinian doctrine of original sin is heresy.
Some people are actually born again because they believe in God (John 3:16). Therefore, Calvinism is false, for if Calvinism is true, God is equally author of righteousness and sin, and God is working against Himself by willing to make people deny and defy His will. He forces them to disobey. That is not something God can do in His righteous character. God cannot promote or condone or cause sin. Calvinism disagrees, since it teaches God is the cause of everything that comes to be, He must also be the author of sin.
How far from God's truth Calvinism goes when it quotes St. Paul out of context!
We read in Scripture:
"Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuferring of our Lord is salvation - as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." 2 Peter 3:14-16 NKJV
Calvinism twists the Scriptures to its own destruction, denying free will. Of course man's choice of God depends on God's mercy and prevenient grace. Calvinism goes beyond this and makes God the author of sin and of damnation.
Take care. In Erie PA USA Scott R. Harrington June 2011 AD

While I do believe that man is born depraved, I also believe that man is born with a sense of moral goodness. For example, yes you don't have to teach a child to lie when he or she knows that they could be in trouble however, the fact that they know they did wrong in first place thus the need for lying, that tell us that their is some sense of embedded morality even if on the most elementary level. Now, that does not change the fact that if we are given the choice to make either a selfish or selfless decision that the child will most likely make the selfish decision. What it does mean is that even early on we understand that there is a choice to be made. Our flesh will always desire to make the selfish choice however, if we rely on the Lords strength and not our own, his Holy Spirit will give us both the wisdom us to make right decisions and the strength to follow through.

 

[phil36]

While I do believe that man is born depraved, I also believe that man is born with a sense of moral goodness. For example, yes you don't have to teach a child to lie when he or she knows that they could be in trouble however, the fact that they know they did wrong in first place thus the need for lying, that tell us that their is some sense of embedded morality even if on the most elementary level. Now, that does not change the fact that if we are given the choice to make either a selfish or selfless decision that the child will most likely make the selfish decision. What it does mean is that even early on we understand that there is a choice to be made. Our flesh will always desire to make the selfish choice however, if we rely on the Lords strength and not our own, his Holy Spirit will give us both the wisdom us to make right decisions and the strength to follow through.

Hi FireontheAlter,

This is very true, we do not have free will, are will is in bondage to our nature. We will never make the rigth choice, because even are good works are like filthy rags to God. So we can make choices, very real ones, but they will always be tied to who you are.

If you are not in Christ then scripture is very clear you are in bondage to sin and evil desires even doing good works is through pride.

I like that you point out (using the anology of a child) that even when they have done wrong they know it deep down.. this is GUILT, and we are all guilty before God. We are condemned as sinners guilty on every account! every inclination is bent to evil. Infact, God tells us as much, before the flood and after it, man is only ever evil in his heart.

God Bless

Phil

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

Hi FireontheAlter,

This is very true, we do not have free will, are will is in bondage to our nature. We will never make the rigth choice, because even are good works are like filthy rags to God. So we can make choices, very real ones, but they will always be tied to who you are.

While I fully understand that when you said "we do not have free will" that you are referring to the fact that the flesh will always pursue a selfish endeavor, ultimately I believe we do have a choice to make however, there are only two options: God or self, selflessness or selfishness, humility versus selfish pride, brokenness or hard headedness, ight or darkness, heaven or hell. The choice is ours to make. Willfully surrender to God knowing that there is absolutely nothing you can do to save yourself - OR - continue to follow after your own selfish lusts and ambitions which will only lead to judgement and eternal damnation.

It's pretty black & white and there are definitely no gray areas to entertain.

 

[phil36]

While I fully understand that when you said "we do not have free will" that you are referring to the fact that the flesh will always pursue a selfish endeavor, ultimately I believe we do have a choice to make however, there are only two options: God or self, selflessness or selfishness, humility versus selfish pride, brokenness or hard headedness, ight or darkness, heaven or hell. The choice is ours to make. Willfully surrender to God knowing that there is absolutely nothing you can do to save yourself - OR - continue to follow after your own selfish lusts and ambitions which will only lead to judgement and eternal damnation.

It's pretty black & white and there are definitely no gray areas to entertain.

But the question actually is, can someone who is spiritually dead make that choice, does not something need to happen for them to see. Theres no grey areas, God regenerates. Titus 3:5

 

[shroom2]

But the question actually is, can someone who is spiritually dead make that choice, does not something need to happen for them to see.

If that is true, then you are saying that God determines who is saved and who isn't. Why would God cause "something to happen" for some people but not others? His will is for -all- men to be saved. But not all will be, so that means something else is required. I believe that something else is the free will decision of man to choose to seek God. Those that hunger and thirst shall be filled.

 

[zone]

Romans 8:5-9​

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but
those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the
flesh [literally: “the mind of the flesh”] is death, but the mind set on the Spirit [literally:
“the mind of the Spirit”] is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh [literally:
“the mind of the flesh”] is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of
God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in
you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.​

John 3:5-7​

Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he
cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that
which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be
born again.’”​

Romans 6:17-18​

But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the
heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from
sin, you became slaves of righteousness.​

Ephesians 2:1-5​

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according
to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit
that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived
in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by
nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His
great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made
us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).​

Ephesians 4:17-18​

So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the
Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, being darkened in their understanding,
excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the
hardness of their heart.​

John 6:44​

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him
up on the last day.​

1 Corinthians 2:14​

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness
to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
Jeremiah 17:9​

The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately [incurably] sick; who can
understand it?​

Ephesians 2:3
Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of
the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.​

Yet many people will lead you to believe man is totally capable to do as he pleases.!!!!!!!!!​

good post phil.

 

[zone]

I completely agree with your initial post. Unfortunately several of today's denominations have turned the concept of total depravity into a license to sin which completely unscriptural. Just because we are sinners saved by grace doesn't mean we have to remain that way for the rest of our lives here on earth.

While it is true that every person is born with a sinfully selfish nature, the bible teaches that by placing our trust in God and by submitting to the work of the Holy Spirit, we can walk in victory over the flesh. Victory over the flesh is not something we can do for ourselves, but the work of the Holy Spirit in us. All man's role in the process is to humble themselves and submit which is the fruit of faith, nothing more.

Obedience to the will and word of God is the evidence of our faith. We do not obey because we believe that our obedience might somehow save us. The bible teaches us otherwise. We obey because we have already put our complete trust in God and his word, which is Christ. In essence, obedience is the evidence of our faith, a faith which originates from God himself made manifest through Christ.

good post Fire.

and this part ain't EASY at times, is it (until we get it through our skulls sin isn't "fun")?

Victory over the flesh is not something we can do for ourselves, but the work of the Holy Spirit in us. All man's role in the process is to humble themselves and submit which is the fruit of faith, nothing more.

but, do it we will....like it or lump it!

Hebrews 12
Do Not Grow Weary
3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. 4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”

7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

TRIP TO THE WOODSHEDuh oh.

 

[FireOnTheAltar]

But the question actually is, can someone who is spiritually dead make that choice, does not something need to happen for them to see. Theres no grey areas, God regenerates. Titus 3:5

Agreed. A sinner, while capable of doing the right thing, will usually do so with the wrong motive in mind. Good works of any kind can not save, only faith in Christ can do that. For the believer, good works are merely a byproduct of saving faith.

 

[Zilla64007]

So a baby right when they are born is genetically and inherently a sinner... Because that's exactly what you're saying

 

[trust_in_the_name]

So a baby right when they are born is genetically and inherently a sinner... Because that's exactly what you're saying

Yep.

3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. (Psalm 58:3)

Remember, whatever is not from faith is sin (Romans 14:23), and without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6).

 

[trust_in_the_name]

If that is true, then you are saying that God determines who is saved and who isn't.

Yep, since "it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy."

9 For this is the word of promise: "At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son." 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated." 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. (Romans 9:9-18)

Those who believe in His name "were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (John 1:12-13)

We did not choose Him, but He chose us.

16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. (John 15:16)

Why would God cause "something to happen" for some people but not others?

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (Romans 9:19-24)

His will is for -all- men to be saved. But not all will be, so that means something else is required. I believe that something else is the free will decision of man to choose to seek God.

11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. (Romans 3:11)

Those that hunger and thirst shall be filled.

 

[superdave5221]

It is true that spiritually dead people are depraved. But it is not true that they are "totally depraved".

Colossians 2: 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Does this occur automatically? No! The sinful, spiritually dead person must do something. They must believe the gospel! The above verses show that this is possible for a spiritually dead person.

Romans 8: 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

The above verses show that the "sinful mind" does not subject itself to the law of God. It says nothing about the ability of the sinner to hear and respond to the gospel message!

Will you limit Christ's atonement? Did He not die for all?

It is true that no one comes to Christ unless called by the Father, (John 6:44). But contrary to Calvinism, this calling is not selective and irresistable.

All are called to Jesus by the power of the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:17; 2 Thess. 2:14; Heb. 4:12), but only some respond:

Matthew 23: 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Did not Jesus say that He would call all men to Himself?

John 12: 32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

If Jesus calls all men to Himself, yet all do not come, do they not have the free will to refuse? Denying that the gospel has the power to draw people to Christ disregards the entire purpose of the gospel message being addressed to sinners.

John 20: 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

The following is from "The Faith Once For all", by Jack Cottrell, College Press Publishing, 2002, p. 200.

[begin quote] Some mistakenly conclude that Eph 2:8 says faith is a gift: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." This is disproved, though, by the rules of Greek grammer. The Greek word for "faith" (pistis) is feminine in gender; the pronoun referring to the gift ("that," touto) is neuter. If it were referring back to faith, it too would be feminine in form. (There is no word in the Greek corresponding to the pronoun "it.") This verse actually shows that faith is not a gift since grace and faith are carefully distinguished. We are saved by grace, as God's part; but through faith, as our part, as distinct from the grace given. Faith is not a gift of grace and the result of regeneration; it is a response to grace and a prerequisite to regeneration.

That faith precedes regeneration and is a prerequisite for it is specifically affirmed in Col 2:12, "Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God." Here "raised up with Him" refers to regeneration (see v. 13, "He made you alive together with Him"), and faith is the means by which the regeneration is received: we are "raised ... through faith." The spiritually dead unbeliever makes his decision to believe of his own free choice, moved by the power of the gospel, before being "raised up" in regeneration. See Eph 1:13-14, where "hearing" and "believing" are aorist participles, suggesting that these acts precede the action of the main verb, the sealing with the spirit (see also Acts 5:32; 15:7-9; 16:30; 1 Peter 1:22).
[end of quote]

1 Timothy 2: 1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Do you actually believe that you can have your way at Burger King, but that God cannot have His way? He wants all men to be saved. The only reason that all are not, is because God gave them the right to choose.

 

[shroom2]

If that is true, then you are saying that God determines who is saved and who isn't.

Yep,
[[snip]]

another calvinist?

So we're all just pawns on God's chessboard, and He is playing both sides? He determines who is saved and who isn't, who gets cancer, whose kid is stillborn, etc, etc.

There is a devil, you know. His role is only to "steal, kill, and destroy".

God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.

Like it or not, we are responsible for our decisions. God made salvation available to all. We can accept God, or not.

 

[trust_in_the_name]

another calvinist?

Calvinism is not accurate, but like most errors there is some truth in it. The standard for truth is the Bible, not Calvinism or any other teaching.

So we're all just pawns on God's chessboard, and He is playing both sides?

I'm not going to agree to a metaphor, since by definition metaphors contain both truth and error.

He determines who is saved and who isn't, who gets cancer, whose kid is stillborn, etc, etc.

Correct, "all things." To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Romans 11:36)

There is a devil, you know. His role is only to "steal, kill, and destroy".

God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all.

Yes. God also kills, by the way.

Like it or not, we are responsible for our decisions.

Most definitely.

God made salvation available to all. We can accept God, or not.

Yes, Jesus certainly did die for the whole world (contrary to the Calvinist teaching of limited atonement).

 

[zone]

It is true that spiritually dead people are depraved. But it is not true that they are "totally depraved".

Colossians 2: 12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Does this occur automatically? No! The sinful, spiritually dead person must do something. They must believe the gospel! The above verses show that this is possible for a spiritually dead person.

Romans 8: 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

The above verses show that the "sinful mind" does not subject itself to the law of God. It says nothing about the ability of the sinner to hear and respond to the gospel message!

Will you limit Christ's atonement? Did He not die for all?

It is true that no one comes to Christ unless called by the Father, (John 6:44). But contrary to Calvinism, this calling is not selective and irresistable.

All are called to Jesus by the power of the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:17; 2 Thess. 2:14; Heb. 4:12), but only some respond:

Matthew 23: 37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Did not Jesus say that He would call all men to Himself?

John 12: 32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

If Jesus calls all men to Himself, yet all do not come, do they not have the free will to refuse? Denying that the gospel has the power to draw people to Christ disregards the entire purpose of the gospel message being addressed to sinners.

John 20: 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

The following is from "The Faith Once For all", by Jack Cottrell, College Press Publishing, 2002, p. 200.

[begin quote] Some mistakenly conclude that Eph 2:8 says faith is a gift: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." This is disproved, though, by the rules of Greek grammer. The Greek word for "faith" (pistis) is feminine in gender; the pronoun referring to the gift ("that," touto) is neuter. If it were referring back to faith, it too would be feminine in form. (There is no word in the Greek corresponding to the pronoun "it.") This verse actually shows that faith is not a gift since grace and faith are carefully distinguished. We are saved by grace, as God's part; but through faith, as our part, as distinct from the grace given. Faith is not a gift of grace and the result of regeneration; it is a response to grace and a prerequisite to regeneration.

That faith precedes regeneration and is a prerequisite for it is specifically affirmed in Col 2:12, "Having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God." Here "raised up with Him" refers to regeneration (see v. 13, "He made you alive together with Him"), and faith is the means by which the regeneration is received: we are "raised ... through faith." The spiritually dead unbeliever makes his decision to believe of his own free choice, moved by the power of the gospel, before being "raised up" in regeneration. See Eph 1:13-14, where "hearing" and "believing" are aorist participles, suggesting that these acts precede the action of the main verb, the sealing with the spirit (see also Acts 5:32; 15:7-9; 16:30; 1 Peter 1:22).
[end of quote]

1 Timothy 2: 1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Do you actually believe that you can have your way at Burger King, but that God cannot have His way? He wants all men to be saved. The only reason that all are not, is because God gave them the right to choose.

hi SuperDave!

 

[Abiding]

Are you saying that faith is a natural part of mans fallen condition? or was every man given a measure, if it was given him then he didnt have it and that makes it a gift. I realize im not formally trained in these areas, so Im not even sure why the debate. Although i do see my own reasons for the correct understanding.