Rome-V-Bible

Katy-follower · Jul 5, 2011

Please don't be offended by what I write. This is based on scripture, which is the word of God. I'm trying to share this with you.

Authority

The Bible teaches Scripture has authority over the church. All Scripture is God-Breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16)

Catholicism teaches the church has authority over Scriptures. The manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the church...to the pope and to the Bishops. (Catechism 100, 119)

Justification

The Bible teaches man is justified once by faith because justification provides a permanent right standing before God and results in glorification (Romans 8:30). To the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness (Romans 4:5)

Catholicism teaches man is to be justified repeatedly by Sacraments and works because he loses the grace of justification each time a mortal sin is committed. The sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of Justification (Catechism 1446)

Regeneration

The Bible teaches man is regenerated at the baptism of the spirit. For we were all baptized by one spirit into one body (1 Cor 12:13). From the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the spirit and through belief in the truth (2 Thes 2:13)

Catholicism teaches baptism of water is the sacrament of regeneration (Catechism 1213), The water of baptism truly signifies our birth into the divine life (Catechism 694).

Salvation

The Bible teaches man is saved by God's unmerited Grace. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast (Eph 2:8-9)

Catholicism teaches man is saved by meriting the graces needed for salvation. We can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for the attainment of eternal life (Catechism 2010)

The Bible teaches man is saved for good works (fruits given to us). For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do (Eph 2:10)

Catholicism teaches man is saved by good works. In this way they attain their own salvation and cooperate in saving their brothers (Catechism 1477)

The Bible teaches man is saved for all eternity. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. (Eph 1:13-14)

Catholicism teaches man is saved only until the next mortal sin is committed. Those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell (Catechism 1035)

The Bible teaches salvation is offered to those outside the church. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors as though God were making his appeal through us, be reconciled to God. (2 Cor 5:20)

Catholicism teaches salvation is offered through the church. Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the church is necessary for salvation. Anyone refusing to enter it or remain in it cannot be saved. (Catechism 846)

The Bible teaches that all sins are purified by the blood of Jesus (1 John 1:7)

Catholicism teaches some sins are purified by the fires of purgatory. They undergo purification in Purgatory, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (Catechism 1030-31)

Saints & Priests

The Bible teaches man becomes a saint when the spirit baptizes him into the body of Christ. (Eph 4:11-12)

Catholicism teaches man becomes a saint only if the pope canonizes him. This occurs when he solemnly proclaims that they practiced a heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God's grace (Catechism 828)

The Bible teaches every christian is a priest and a member of the royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9)

Catholicism teaches every man needs a priest for salvation. Catholic priests guarantee that Christ is acting in the sacraments which are necessary for salvation (Catechism 1120-29)

The Lord's Supper

The Bible teaches the Lord's supper is a memorial. Do this in remembrance of me. (1 Cor 11:24-25)

Catholicism teaches the Lord's supper is a sacrifice. The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice... the same Christ who offered Himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner (Catechism 1367)

The Bible teaches that believers receive Jesus once, spiritually, in the heart. God... put his spirit in our hearts as a guarantee (2 Cor 1:22)

Catholicism teaches Catholics receive Jesus physically, frequently, in the stomach. The body, blood... soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ... is truly, really and substantially contained in the Eucharist (Catechism 1374-78)

Condemnation

The Bible condemns anyone who perverts the Gospel including the Roman Catholic Clergy. If we or an angel from heaven should preach a Gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Gal 1:6-9)

Catholicism condemns with over 100 anathemas those who believe the bible instead of the Canons of the Council of Trent. These condemnations are still in effect today.

These thirteen teachings of Roman Catholicism demonstrate how the traditions of men can nullify and oppose the word of God (Mark 7:7-13 - And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.... For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men...All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition...)

True saving faith is granted by God as people hear and believe His Word (Romans 10:17). Eternal life can be received only as a gift of God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Accordingly, we must come to the cross of Christ with empty hands of faith, leaving everything behind, except our sins (2 Cor 5:21)

Head of The Church

The Bible: "He has put all things under Christ's feet and made Him, thus exalted, head of the church" (Ephesians 1:22-23)

Catechism:t eaches that the Pope "by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire church has full, supreme and universal power over the whole church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered" (Catechism: 882)
He exercises infallibility when "he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals" (Catechism: 891)

Salvation Rejected Is Hell

The Bible: "Those who do not acknowledge God nor heed the good news of our Lord Jesus...will suffer the penalty of eternal ruin" (2 Thess 1:8-9 - "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power")

Catechism: teaches that "immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer...eternal fire" (Catechism: 1035)

The Lord Jesus said if you reject HIS word you are rejecting HIM (John 12:48 - He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day)

The Bible reveals man is saved, not by what he does, but by believing the Gospel (Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise..) Any religion that teaches that salvation is obtained through human effort and merit is nullifying the grace of God. Grace is the only means by which God saves sinners! (Romans 11:6 - If by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace)

Some people blindly put their faith in religious leaders, assuming their leaders would never deceive anyone. Yet the Apostle Paul warned that (Acts 20:30 - from your own church, men will arise perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them"). Other people simply ignore God's word and listen to teachers who say what they want to hear (2 Timothy 4:2-4 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables). Then there are the people who have a zeal for God, but not according to biblical knowledge (Romans 10:1-4).

****************

.....Questions.....

* Are you sure of going to heaven when you die? - Catholic teaching states that anyone who claims to have assurance of salvation through God's power or mercy has committed the sin of presumption (Catechism: 2092)

* Do you know what God's righteous justice demands for all sin? - Catholic teaching states venial sins do not bring death to the soul or eternal punishment (Catechism: 1472)

* Do you believe purgatory purifies you of your sin? - This belief denies the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice for the expiation of sin (Catechism: 1473)

****************

Adrianv125 · Jul 5, 2011

HAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I like your post!

Scotth1960 · Jul 5, 2011

Katy-follower said:

Please don't be offended by what I write. This is based on scripture, which is the word of God. I'm trying to share this with you.

Authority

The Bible teaches Scripture has authority over the church. All Scripture is God-Breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Tim 3:16).

Dear Katy-follower, Where does Scripture say that Scripture has authority "over the church"? The church wrote Scripture. What is the "pillar and ground of the truth"?
The Bible? No! Not at all! According to the Bible, it is the Church that is "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). Therefore, the Church that wrote the Bible must tell us what the Bible means, and has authority from God Himself as to what the Bible means.
How can we know what the Bible means, unless some man tell us (Acts)? Who leads the Church into all truth? The Holy Spirit (John 16:13), who lives in the One Church (Ephesians 4). In Erie PA USA July 5, 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

Catholicism teaches the church has authority over Scriptures. The manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the church...to the pope and to the Bishops. (Catechism 100, 119)

Justification

The Bible teaches man is justified once by faith because justification provides a permanent right standing before God and results in glorification (Romans 8:30). To the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness (Romans 4:5)

Catholicism teaches man is to be justified repeatedly by Sacraments and works because he loses the grace of justification each time a mortal sin is committed. The sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of Justification (Catechism 1446)

Regeneration

The Bible teaches man is regenerated at the baptism of the spirit. For we were all baptized by one spirit into one body (1 Cor 12:13). From the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the spirit and through belief in the truth (2 Thes 2:13)

Catholicism teaches baptism of water is the sacrament of regeneration (Catechism 1213), The water of baptism truly signifies our birth into the divine life (Catechism 694).

Salvation

The Bible teaches man is saved by God's unmerited Grace. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast (Eph 2:8-9)

Catholicism teaches man is saved by meriting the graces needed for salvation. We can merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for the attainment of eternal life (Catechism 2010)
That is wrong. We cannot merit salvation. Titus chapter 3 says so. It's not by deeds of righteousness we have done, but by God's mercy alone He saves us. We cannot save ourselves. Yet, if we are justified, some good works will eventually be involved in our justification, because we are not justified by faith alone (James 2:24), but by faith "which worketh through love" (Gal. 5:6), and we're saved by "faith, hope, and love" (1 Cor. 13:13). In Erie PA July 5, 2011 AD Scott R. Harrington

The Bible teaches man is saved for good works (fruits given to us). For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do (Eph 2:10)
Amen. Scott R. Harrington Erie PA USA July 5, 2011 AD

Catholicism teaches man is saved by good works. In this way they attain their own salvation and cooperate in saving their brothers (Catechism 1477)

The Bible teaches man is saved for all eternity. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the Gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. (Eph 1:13-14)

Catholicism teaches man is saved only until the next mortal sin is committed. Those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell (Catechism 1035)

The Bible teaches salvation is offered to those outside the church. We are therefore Christ's ambassadors as though God were making his appeal through us, be reconciled to God. (2 Cor 5:20)

Catholicism teaches salvation is offered through the church. Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the church is necessary for salvation. Anyone refusing to enter it or remain in it cannot be saved. (Catechism 846)

The Bible teaches that all sins are purified by the blood of Jesus (1 John 1:7)

Catholicism teaches some sins are purified by the fires of purgatory. They undergo purification in Purgatory, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven (Catechism 1030-31)

Saints & Priests

The Bible teaches man becomes a saint when the spirit baptizes him into the body of Christ. (Eph 4:11-12)

Catholicism teaches man becomes a saint only if the pope canonizes him. This occurs when he solemnly proclaims that they practiced a heroic virtue and lived in fidelity to God's grace (Catechism 828)

The Bible teaches every christian is a priest and a member of the royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9)

Catholicism teaches every man needs a priest for salvation. Catholic priests guarantee that Christ is acting in the sacraments which are necessary for salvation (Catechism 1120-29)

The Lord's Supper

The Bible teaches the Lord's supper is a memorial. Do this in remembrance of me. (1 Cor 11:24-25)

Catholicism teaches the Lord's supper is a sacrifice. The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice... the same Christ who offered Himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner (Catechism 1367)

The Bible teaches that believers receive Jesus once, spiritually, in the heart. God... put his spirit in our hearts as a guarantee (2 Cor 1:22)

Catholicism teaches Catholics receive Jesus physically, frequently, in the stomach. The body, blood... soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ... is truly, really and substantially contained in the Eucharist (Catechism 1374-78)

Condemnation

The Bible condemns anyone who perverts the Gospel including the Roman Catholic Clergy. If we or an angel from heaven should preach a Gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Gal 1:6-9)

Catholicism condemns with over 100 anathemas those who believe the bible instead of the Canons of the Council of Trent. These condemnations are still in effect today.

These thirteen teachings of Roman Catholicism demonstrate how the traditions of men can nullify and oppose the word of God (Mark 7:7-13 - And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.... For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men...All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition...)

True saving faith is granted by God as people hear and believe His Word (Romans 10:17). Eternal life can be received only as a gift of God's grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. Accordingly, we must come to the cross of Christ with empty hands of faith, leaving everything behind, except our sins (2 Cor 5:21)

Head of The Church

The Bible: "He has put all things under Christ's feet and made Him, thus exalted, head of the church" (Ephesians 1:22-23)

Catechism:t eaches that the Pope "by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire church has full, supreme and universal power over the whole church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered" (Catechism: 882)
He exercises infallibility when "he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals" (Catechism: 891)

Salvation Rejected Is Hell

The Bible: "Those who do not acknowledge God nor heed the good news of our Lord Jesus...will suffer the penalty of eternal ruin" (2 Thess 1:8-9 - "in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power")

Catechism: teaches that "immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer...eternal fire" (Catechism: 1035)

The Lord Jesus said if you reject HIS word you are rejecting HIM (John 12:48 - He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day)

The Bible reveals man is saved, not by what he does, but by believing the Gospel (Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise..) Any religion that teaches that salvation is obtained through human effort and merit is nullifying the grace of God. Grace is the only means by which God saves sinners! (Romans 11:6 - If by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace)

Some people blindly put their faith in religious leaders, assuming their leaders would never deceive anyone. Yet the Apostle Paul warned that (Acts 20:30 - from your own church, men will arise perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them"). Other people simply ignore God's word and listen to teachers who say what they want to hear (2 Timothy 4:2-4 - For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables). Then there are the people who have a zeal for God, but not according to biblical knowledge (Romans 10:1-4).

****************

.....Questions.....

* Are you sure of going to heaven when you die? - Catholic teaching states that anyone who claims to have assurance of salvation through God's power or mercy has committed the sin of presumption (Catechism: 2092)

* Do you know what God's righteous justice demands for all sin? - Catholic teaching states venial sins do not bring death to the soul or eternal punishment (Catechism: 1472)

* Do you believe purgatory purifies you of your sin? - This belief denies the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice for the expiation of sin (Catechism: 1473)

****************

Digital_Angel_316 · Jul 5, 2011

Katy-follower

You list a lot of important doctrines, and some good responses.
Are these your own ideas, where did you get them from?

While much of what you post, indicates important and valid issues
and concerns, I would also say, that many of these responses are also
a bit shallow, and that the true responses (explanations) are also
deeper than what you or most protestant, denominational religions
can understand and so take out of context as well.

You Posted:
Justification

The Bible teaches man is justified once by faith because justification provides a
permanent right standing before God and results in glorification (Romans 8:30).
To the man who does not work, but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is
credited as righteousness (Romans 4:5)

Catholicism teaches man is to be justified repeatedly by Sacraments and works
because he loses the grace of justification each time a mortal sin is committed.
The sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the
grace of Justification (Catechism 1446)

Tell us more on the doctrine of Justification. Many call it 'saved' or 'get saved' and tie
it to a baptism ritual. I assert rather that 'justification' means understanding the issues
and doctrines and consequences -- i.e. a Believers Baptism Only. Not a name-it, claim-it,
not a 'saved' and 'get saved', not once saved always saved, not greasy grace. We can
start here, and go through each of these doctrines more fully. I encourage you to do so.
Sometimes preachers are trite and verse oriented, rather than concepts and themes of
understanding.

True, we are not justified by the law, but the law, as a schoolmaster, shows us right from
wrong and it is by faith in following these precepts that we are justified. Remember, Jesus
was clear, I did not come to do away with the law, but rather to fulfill the law (and thus make
the law a set of precepts, not a system of legalism, ritual, payments and punishments).

Are you referring to the book:
The Gospel According to Rome, James G. McCarthy
# Paperback: 408 pages
# Publisher: Harvest House Publishers (January 1, 1995)
# Language: English
# ISBN-10: 1565071077
# ISBN-13: 978-1565071070
# Product Dimensions: 8.5 x 5.4 x 1.2 inches

Reviews:
This book has an excellent presentation. It's critical of Roman Catholism
and is written by a former catholic from a very catholic family. He uses
real life situations to showcase Roman Catholic practices and references
many Roman Catholic writings including the new Catechism of the Catholic
church. Does a powerful comparision between Roman Catholic teachings
and scripture. His judgment is obvious but not harshly given.

This book provides a straight forward description of Catholicism and
compares it with what God's word says. From areas of blatant heresy
to areas that are not so clear, it covers them well.

Digital_Angel_316 · Jul 5, 2011

Digital_Angel_316 said:

REASON -- LOGOS -- NATURAL LAW -- WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN REALITY/LIFE APPLICATION

What is the Bible saying to us? How is it we are justified -- by a verse,
because your preacher said so?

You are drowning in a sea of iniquity and evil. Maybe you were tossed into that sea.
Maybe you were ignorant and did not know the sea can be dangerous. Maybe you think
you can overcome the sea. I can come and 'save' you once, by pulling
alongside in a rescue ship and tossing you a life line. But what about next time? Who
teaches you to swim or stay out of the water?

Does the [fire] rescuer always have to lay down his life to 'save' you? When will you learn
for yourself, to play with fire is to get burned. The Life Guard and the Fire Man might not
always be on the scene -

the free gift, is the instruction manual you are left with, to keep yourself safe, not by
works, but by refraining and restraining your actions and learning to do what is right.

Many people, preachers included are looking to their own salvation, not yours, simply
using you to effect their means to an end by running a building and making promises.

Are you JUSTIFIED in your knowledge, understanding and application of the safety and
operation manual you have been given? Have you, are you, studying to show yourself
an approved worker? Have you shared this information with others to help save yourself
from their ignorance, arrogance or acts of others towards them?

Paul Simon says in an old song --
If you'll be my bodyguard
I can be your long lost pal
I can call you Betty
And Betty, when you call me
You can call me Al

Is that YOUR IDEA of 'GRACELAND'?? ...

A Church is just a greenhouse
Not much fruit grows in a greenhouse

Isaiah 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my
righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Jeremiah 3:11
And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than
treacherous Judah.

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Luke 16:15
And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth
your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of
God.

Luke 18:13-15
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but
smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one
that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Acts 13:38-40
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached
unto you the forgiveness of sins:

And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be
justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be
justified.

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
[here 'deeds of the law' refer to rites and rituals, such as circumcision, moon sabbaths,
animal sacrifice, etc. today, this would include a ritual baptism as a deed].

Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one [Adam/Adamic Nature/Adamic Tradition] judgment
came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [Jesus, the new
creation] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified
in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 2:17
But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is
therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

Hearer · Jul 5, 2011

the long list by katy-follower does not make clear the importance of church attendance and the presence of church and spirit in a church community.

Protestants are individualists who believe in one-on-one fellowship but not in the importance of joining the church. Katy says Jesus is the head of the church but which church? Is the universal invisible church, seeing that there are so many conflicting denominations.

Catholicism at least identifes the church and preaches that church membership is essential for a body to enjoy the presence of the Spirit.

Adrianv125 · Jul 5, 2011

Hey hearer check this out.

1 corinthians 6:19
Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

So pretty much the church is a gathering of people in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, it could be two or more. How can we know He dwells in them?

Galatians 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

^^That's the kind of behavior they portray.

Jesus Christ is the head over all the people in the world who have believed in His name, accepted Him as Lord and savior, walk according to the spirit, and keep His commands. These people don't have the necessity of gathering in a certain building, actually when the church fist began they gathered in houses. Denominations tend to be legalists, meaning that they do believe in Christ's salvation and there's always something else you should do to obtain it, or they just have different doctrines that aren't necessarily biblical.

Hearer · Jul 5, 2011

Adrianv125 said:

THat is exactly the fault with protestants which is unbiblical:

The church is based on the apostles and God's ecclesia which means "assembly" and "church".
Matthew 16:18
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Digital_Angel_316 · Jul 5, 2011

Hearer said:

The 'Church' is the Ekklesia, the gathering of the CALLED OUT ONES

The Church, the ekklesia

The word 'church' in the New Testament is translated from the Greek word 'ekklesia'
which comes from two words 'ek' meaning 'out' and 'kaleo' meaning to 'call.' An ekklesia
or 'calling out' was not just an assembly.

When the Greek city states found their governments had become too corrupt and
oppressive, they would call for an ekklesia, an assembly outside the civil authority of the
city. If enough people came out and refused to accept the existing centralized civil
authority, that government would collapse. Non participation has been a successful and
peaceful means to free mankind from oppressive civil authority throughout history.

Like the walk out strikes instituted by Gandhi in hope of freeing his people from
oppression of colonization, the act of calling the people out could be a very effective
method of obtaining freedom through nonviolence. Gandhi did not only encourage worker
strikes, but also practical methods to free society from the need of the corporate benefits
and its resulting oppressive civil state. Moses had done the same in Egypt when he taught
the people how to live without the exercising authority and benefits of the Pharaoh while
still maintaining a viable, cohesive and productive society.

Jesus' procession into Jerusalem was a call for the people to stand against a corrupt
oppressive government by offering them a legitimate government that operated
differently than Herod the Great. John the Baptist had preached the kingdom of heaven
at hand,2 which was nothing less than a government operating by freewill offerings,3
voluntary charitable participation4 and the perfect law of liberty.5 Jesus preached the
same method of self government and proclaimed that right for all who would remain
faithful to Him. It was a powerful and non violent movement of the people, by the people,
and for the people to change the course of history by changing the hearts and minds of
men, by altering their relationship with governments of the gentiles with their leaders
who called themselves benefactors but who exercised authority.6

What is the form of His government? How does Heaven run its government, its ekklesia,
here on earth?

"But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles
exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But
it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your
minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son
of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for
many." (Matthew 20:25-28)

REFERENCE: The Church, the ekklesia

In our English Bible the Greek word, "ekklesia" is translated in most places "church." The
word "ekklesia" is found in one hundred and fifteen places in the New Testament. It is
translated in English one hundred and thirteen times "church" and the remaining times it
is translated "assembly." In classical Greek the word "ekklesia" meant "an assembly of
citizens summoned by the crier, the legislative assembly."(2) The word as used in the
New Testament is taken from the root of this word, which simply means to "call out." In
New Testament times the word was exclusively used to represent a group of people
assembled together for a particular cause or purpose. It was never used exclusively to
refer to a religious meeting or group.

An examination of the Greek word "ekklesia" reveals that the word is properly
translated into English as the "assembly" or "congregation." It is used to refer to a group
of persons that are organized together for a common purpose and who meet together.
Brown states the word was used as early as the 5th Century B.C.:

I. (a) ekklesia, derived via ek-kaleo, which was used for the summons to the army to
assemble, from kaleo, to call (--. Call). It is attested from Eur. and Hdt. onwards (5th cent.
B.C.), and denotes in the usage of antiquity the popular assembly of the competent full
citizens of the polis, city. It reached its greatest importance in the 5th cent, and met at
regular intervals (in Athens about 30--40 times a year, elsewhere less frequently) and
also in cases of urgency as an extra-ordinary ekklesia. Its sphere of competence included
decisions on suggested changes in the law (which could only be effected by the council of
the 400), on appointments to official positions and -- at least in its heyday -- on every
important question of internal and external policy (contracts, treaties, war and peace,
finance). To these was added in special cases (e.g. treason) the task of sitting in
judgment, which as a rule fell to regular courts. The ekklesia opened with prayers and
sacrifices to the gods of the city.(3)

In the New Testament era, society used such words as thiasos and synagoge to denote
fellowships. More particular Brown says that the word synagoge was used to denote the
place of meetings.(5)

Another example is found in Acts 7:38 which refers to the nation of Israel that was
congregated at Mt. Sinai as the "church in the wilderness." The word translated "church"
is the Greek word "ekklesia." It is incorrect to refer to Israel as a church and the word
should be properly translated "assembly" or "congregation." It is confusing to refer to
the Nation of Israel as a church which could be misunderstood to support Amillennialism.

In most places in the New Testament the word "ekklesia" refers to a local assembly of
believers in Jesus Christ and should be accurately translated "assembly" or
"congregation." Brown states that the word is limited in use to a particular geographical
location:

The ekklesia has its location, existence and being with the definable geographical limits.
The apostle thus writes of the ekklesia te ouse en Korintho, the church which is in Corinth
(1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 1:2), indicating both that it belongs to the people of the place and that it
has a new and different quality. This is also true when he speaks of the ekklesia
Thessalonikeon (1 Thess.1:1.(7)

REFERENCES and more information here:
The translation of the Greek Word "Ekklesia" in the English Bible and its Ramifications.

ISN'T IT TIME THAT WE CALL THE EKKLESIA -- TO WARN OF FALSE PREACHERS, OF WOLVES
IN MAN'S RELIGIONS, TO CALL OUT THE FAITHFUL, TO EXPOSE THE UNFRUITFUL WORKS
OF EVIL, THE CORRUPTION OF ELI -- r-ELI-gion ... THE MOVE TOWARDS UNIVERSAL,
GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED (501C), OR SHARIA RELIGION (CALVINISM IS IT'S OWN FORM
OF SHARIA, THIS IS WHY WE SEE THE BAPTISTS MOVING ONCE AGAIN TO SLAVERY, THEY
JUST CAN'T STOP, JUST CAN'T GET ENOUGH. WE SEE MARXISM COMING IN THE FORM OF
SCHOOLS MANIPULATING CHILDREN AND PARENTS INTO A WORK SYSTEM UNDER YOUR
TAXES USED FOR GOVERNMENT FUNDED MARXISM AND SOCIALISM).

Hearer · Jul 5, 2011

Digital_Angel_316 said:

The 'Church' is the Ekklesia, the gathering of the CALLED OUT ONES

The Church, the ekklesia

The word 'church' in the New Testament is translated from the Greek word 'ekklesia'
which comes from two words 'ek' meaning 'out' and 'kaleo' meaning to 'call.' An ekklesia
or 'calling out' was not just an assembly.

When the Greek city states found their governments had become too corrupt and
oppressive, they would call for an ekklesia, an assembly outside the civil authority of the
city. If enough people came out and refused to accept the existing centralized civil
authority, that government would collapse. Non participation has been a successful and
peaceful means to free mankind from oppressive civil authority throughout history.

Like the walk out strikes instituted by Gandhi in hope of freeing his people from
oppression of colonization, the act of calling the people out could be a very effective
method of obtaining freedom through nonviolence. Gandhi did not only encourage worker
strikes, but also practical methods to free society from the need of the corporate benefits
and its resulting oppressive civil state. Moses had done the same in Egypt when he taught
the people how to live without the exercising authority and benefits of the Pharaoh while
still maintaining a viable, cohesive and productive society.

Jesus' procession into Jerusalem was a call for the people to stand against a corrupt
oppressive government by offering them a legitimate government that operated
differently than Herod the Great. John the Baptist had preached the kingdom of heaven
at hand,2 which was nothing less than a government operating by freewill offerings,3
voluntary charitable participation4 and the perfect law of liberty.5 Jesus preached the
same method of self government and proclaimed that right for all who would remain
faithful to Him. It was a powerful and non violent movement of the people, by the people,
and for the people to change the course of history by changing the hearts and minds of
men, by altering their relationship with governments of the gentiles with their leaders
who called themselves benefactors but who exercised authority.6

What is the form of His government? How does Heaven run its government, its ekklesia,
here on earth?

"But Jesus called them [unto him], and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles
exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But
it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your
minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son
of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for
many." (Matthew 20:25-28)

REFERENCE: The Church, the ekklesia

In our English Bible the Greek word, "ekklesia" is translated in most places "church." The
word "ekklesia" is found in one hundred and fifteen places in the New Testament. It is
translated in English one hundred and thirteen times "church" and the remaining times it
is translated "assembly." In classical Greek the word "ekklesia" meant "an assembly of
citizens summoned by the crier, the legislative assembly."(2) The word as used in the
New Testament is taken from the root of this word, which simply means to "call out." In
New Testament times the word was exclusively used to represent a group of people
assembled together for a particular cause or purpose. It was never used exclusively to
refer to a religious meeting or group.

An examination of the Greek word "ekklesia" reveals that the word is properly
translated into English as the "assembly" or "congregation." It is used to refer to a group
of persons that are organized together for a common purpose and who meet together.
Brown states the word was used as early as the 5th Century B.C.:

I. (a) ekklesia, derived via ek-kaleo, which was used for the summons to the army to
assemble, from kaleo, to call (--. Call). It is attested from Eur. and Hdt. onwards (5th cent.
B.C.), and denotes in the usage of antiquity the popular assembly of the competent full
citizens of the polis, city. It reached its greatest importance in the 5th cent, and met at
regular intervals (in Athens about 30--40 times a year, elsewhere less frequently) and
also in cases of urgency as an extra-ordinary ekklesia. Its sphere of competence included
decisions on suggested changes in the law (which could only be effected by the council of
the 400), on appointments to official positions and -- at least in its heyday -- on every
important question of internal and external policy (contracts, treaties, war and peace,
finance). To these was added in special cases (e.g. treason) the task of sitting in
judgment, which as a rule fell to regular courts. The ekklesia opened with prayers and
sacrifices to the gods of the city.(3)

In the New Testament era, society used such words as thiasos and synagoge to denote
fellowships. More particular Brown says that the word synagoge was used to denote the
place of meetings.(5)

Another example is found in Acts 7:38 which refers to the nation of Israel that was
congregated at Mt. Sinai as the "church in the wilderness." The word translated "church"
is the Greek word "ekklesia." It is incorrect to refer to Israel as a church and the word
should be properly translated "assembly" or "congregation." It is confusing to refer to
the Nation of Israel as a church which could be misunderstood to support Amillennialism.

In most places in the New Testament the word "ekklesia" refers to a local assembly of
believers in Jesus Christ and should be accurately translated "assembly" or
"congregation." Brown states that the word is limited in use to a particular geographical
location:

The ekklesia has its location, existence and being with the definable geographical limits.
The apostle thus writes of the ekklesia te ouse en Korintho, the church which is in Corinth
(1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 1:2), indicating both that it belongs to the people of the place and that it
has a new and different quality. This is also true when he speaks of the ekklesia
Thessalonikeon (1 Thess.1:1.(7)

REFERENCES and more information here:
The translation of the Greek Word "Ekklesia" in the English Bible and its Ramifications.

ISN'T IT TIME THAT WE CALL THE EKKLESIA -- TO WARN OF FALSE PREACHERS, OF WOLVES
IN MAN'S RELIGIONS, TO CALL OUT THE FAITHFUL, TO EXPOSE THE UNFRUITFUL WORKS
OF EVIL, THE CORRUPTION OF ELI -- r-ELI-gion ... THE MOVE TOWARDS UNIVERSAL,
GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED (501C), OR SHARIA RELIGION (CALVINISM IS IT'S OWN FORM
OF SHARIA, THIS IS WHY WE SEE THE BAPTISTS MOVING ONCE AGAIN TO SLAVERY, THEY
JUST CAN'T STOP, JUST CAN'T GET ENOUGH. WE SEE MARXISM COMING IN THE FORM OF
SCHOOLS MANIPULATING CHILDREN AND PARENTS INTO A WORK SYSTEM UNDER YOUR
TAXES USED FOR GOVERNMENT FUNDED MARXISM AND SOCIALISM).

What I gather from your post is that the church is to be agthering, called, like an army to be united. That is why it has a common enemy: The gates of hell.

Matthew 16:18
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Just as the church lays siege on hell. Like an invading army. The church must stand united as a single body, like an army platoon or even company.

Katy-follower · Jul 6, 2011

You cannot argue the bible. To argue the bible is calling God a liar.

Look these up in the bible as well as the Catechism and see for yourself.

God is in charge, not man.

Adrianv125 · Jul 6, 2011

Yes people. Arguing the bible is giving God a slap in the face. So yep. You do so at your own peril. We care about you and don't want you to suffer. But if you want to then go ahead

Adrianv125 · Jul 6, 2011

Hearer said:

First of all, I am not a protestant. No denomination at all, I just follow Christ and I take the bible as a whole to draw doctrinal conclusions. I don't conjecture on bits and pieces just like you have.

Second of all, it is not unbiblical. In fact it is backed up by it. You use your conjecture to try to disprove it.

Third of all, that's pretty much it

Katy-follower · Jul 6, 2011

Hearer said:

The church is the people, not the building.
The people are believers of Christ and his biblical word.
The building is merely a place to gather.

As born again Christians we are excited about gathering and sharing worship as a family. We are drawn to the Church building and we arrive like sponges, wanting to absorb (learn) as much as possible through reading the bible and through a pastor reading the scriptures with us. In the event that one does not go to church there is nothing wrong at all. The Holy spirit is still working within that person while they are at home, reading their bible, praying to God, thinking of God, and in everything that they do. No doubt about it that going to the church building I feel great knowing that I'm with my spiritual family. I have felt the power of the holy spirit in the church I go to. It has been so strong that I almost broke down on 2 occasions. It was incredible. But God's Holy spirit is always there for us. So - no, it is not a sin if you don't go to church but then us Christians just do not want to avoid worshiping him as a family.

Acts 17:24 - "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands"

John 18:36 - "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Romans 14:17 - "For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"

1 Peter 2:5 - "You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture" (Living stones is "the people" and "spiritual house")

To answer your question ("which church is Jesus the head of?")....................

Simple. Jesus is the head of the church ("the people") who follow him according to his Scriptures in the bible. It does not get any simpler than that. Man gets so confused with having to do works, traditions, rituals, etc, which are worldly and of man, that man does not realize that he doesn't need to do all of those things - in fact, the exact opposite - a spiritual relationship with Christ, letting go of all those rituals and traditions. I don't think Catholics realize how easy it is, but Catholicism makes it hard to have a relationship with Christ.

A question for you - imagine a set of monkey bars hanging high above hell. You are hanging onto the bars. God is standing in the middle between you and hell. Now, the monkey bars are the things you hold onto and have trust in, like penance, traditions, etc, etc. Now, if you let go of those monkey bars, would you TRUST that God would save you? Or would you rather cling to the monkey bars with no trust for God? - afterall, God says numerous times to have sole trust in him. He frowns on traditions of men.

Hearer · Jul 6, 2011

Katy-follower said:

The church is the people, not the building.
The people are believers of Christ and his biblical word.
The building is merely a place to gather.

As born again Christians we are excited about gathering and sharing worship as a family. We are drawn to the Church building and we arrive like sponges, wanting to absorb (learn) as much as possible through reading the bible and through a pastor reading the scriptures with us. In the event that one does not go to church there is nothing wrong at all. The Holy spirit is still working within that person while they are at home, reading their bible, praying to God, thinking of God, and in everything that they do. No doubt about it that going to the church building I feel great knowing that I'm with my spiritual family. I have felt the power of the holy spirit in the church I go to. It has been so strong that I almost broke down on 2 occasions. It was incredible. But God's Holy spirit is always there for us. So - no, it is not a sin if you don't go to church but then us Christians just do not want to avoid worshiping him as a family.

Acts 17:24 - "God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands"

John 18:36 - "Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

Romans 14:17 - "For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit"

1 Peter 2:5 - "You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture" (Living stones is "the people" and "spiritual house")

To answer your question ("which church is Jesus the head of?")....................

Simple. Jesus is the head of the church ("the people") who follow him according to his Scriptures in the bible. It does not get any simpler than that. Man gets so confused with having to do works, traditions, rituals, etc, which are worldly and of man, that man does not realize that he doesn't need to do all of those things - in fact, the exact opposite - a spiritual relationship with Christ, letting go of all those rituals and traditions. I don't think Catholics realize how easy it is, but Catholicism makes it hard to have a relationship with Christ.

A question for you - imagine a set of monkey bars hanging high above hell. You are hanging onto the bars. God is standing in the middle between you and hell. Now, the monkey bars are the things you hold onto and have trust in, like penance, traditions, etc, etc. Now, if you let go of those monkey bars, would you TRUST that God would save you? Or would you rather cling to the monkey bars with no trust for God? - afterall, God says numerous times to have sole trust in him. He frowns on traditions of men.

what happens if you are already same in Jesus arms and he takes you gently into an ancient established church with a rich tradition of spirituality? I was a protestant and charasmatic but found the services shouty and unruly and filled with a false "enthusiasm" which seemed unable to reach deep into the core of one's being.

The catholics quietly and systematically go through thewhole bible and give sound and sensible quiet sermons.

The liturgy is biblically based on the heavenly liturgy in Revelation.

Adrianv125 · Jul 6, 2011

Hearer said:

Hmm. It's not the way it is told, it is what is being told. And what is being told in the catholic church is NOT biblical. Period.

Hearer · Jul 6, 2011

why then would God give me words in latin which led me to the catholic church? I believe I was shepherded into that ancient established church.

Adoramus (adoration of Him in His presence)
and
Spes (hope)

The only right context for a crharasmatic to apply latin is in the Latin Right Catholic Church.

Adrianv125 · Jul 6, 2011

Sorry to burst your bubble. But the bible was written in the hebrew and the greek language. It was the word of God that led you to God. A phrase in some other language that is referring to the scripture isn't necessarily what draws men to God. It is the spirit of God through His word that draws men. God in no way in His scripture says that He is going to lead you to the catholic church with latin words. The only place He wants to lead you is to be in eternity with Him, and worship Him in spirit and in truth. You will get to meet Him through His word. Not through some church, not through some latin words.

But now that you said you are a charismatic.... That movement or sect, whatever you call it, is a heresy.

Hearer · Jul 6, 2011

Adrianv125 said:

Dear Adrian. I agree that Christ wants to lead us to eternity. But there is no salvation outside the church.

The story of the good samaritan tells how the good samaritan (a figure for Jesus himself seeing that Jesus is good) heals us then takes us to the inn (church) where he leaves talents/money/ resources for the innkeeper to look after the wounded man until he returns (until Christ returns).

So the church (the inn and the innkeeper) have been given charge to look after souls until Christ's return.

There is only one church, one good healer and he heal us as far as he does before leaving us safe in the arms of the church.

Amen.

dscherck · Jul 6, 2011

Adrianv125 said:

Actually, I've been blessed to visit a large variety of church groups. Pentacostals, evangelicals, Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Presbyterians, house churches, CMA, and many others. While the love of the Scriptures is evident in all of them, the Catholic Church makes more use of Scripture and is more Scripturally sound than any of the others.

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