Predestination.

[cronjecj]

The following scriptures are given of proof that God has predestined everyone already before the foundation of the earth, some to condemnation and some to salvation.

i believe that when God says He is the Alpha and Omega He is actually saying that He has seen everything laid out to Him from Beginning to End in an instant like on a map before the foundation of the earth.

Predestined to condemnation.

Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Predestined to salvation.

1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Romans 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Romans 9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

 

[CanadaNZ]

The following scriptures are given of proof that God has predestined everyone already before the foundation of the earth, some to condemnation and some to salvation.

i believe that when God says He is the Alpha and Omega He is actually saying that He has seen everything laid out to Him from Beginning to End in an instant like on a map before the foundation of the earth.

Predestined to condemnation.

Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Predestined to salvation.

1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Romans 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Romans 9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

There is some misunderstanding of this concept generally. First what kind of God do we serve. . .and ALL-knowing one: (Psalm 139)

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place,
when I was woven together in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my unformed body;
all the days ordained for me were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

All our days were ordained because he knew everything we were going to do before we ever chose to do it. Yes we were predestined because our God knew what and more importantly who we were going to choose.

28They then said, What are we to do, that we may [habitually] be working the works of God? [What are we to do to carry out what God requires?]
29Jesus replied, This is the work (service) that God asks of you: that you believe in the One Whom He has sent [that you cleave to, trust, rely on, and have faith in His Messenger].

If the work/service God asks of us is to believe in Jesus then we have a choice, predestination is God setting us a destiny based on what he knows we will choose. As it says in Ephesians 2"

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

[cronjecj]

Everything you said just confirms it, predestined to believe unto the Son and to be made His righteousness so that we are blameless before God.

The rest well God foreknew those who would not believe and who practice lawlessness just as He foreknew the outcome of everyone else, the saved and unsaved.

 

[CanadaNZ]

Everything you said just confirms it, predestined to believe unto the Son and to be made His righteousness so that we are blameless before God.

The rest well God foreknew those who would not believe and who practice lawlessness just as He foreknew the outcome of everyone else, the saved and unsaved.

exactly free will, but predestined

 

[cronjecj]

exactly free will, but predestined

Yea and if you think about it even after free will God already knows who will be His own and who will not.

After all He is all knowing, He has seen the end already when no one even existed in the beginning because He is the beginning

.....and the end of all things. It's like He has already been there.

Peace.

 

[mudustyII]

I am happy for you that all you want to be is PUPPETS.



God bless you.

 

[cronjecj]

Hi there MudustyII,

Yea puppets with free will

 

[HeIsNowHere]

The following scriptures are given of proof that God has predestined everyone already before the foundation of the earth, some to condemnation and some to salvation.

i believe that when God says He is the Alpha and Omega He is actually saying that He has seen everything laid out to Him from Beginning to End in an instant like on a map before the foundation of the earth.

Predestined to condemnation.

Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Predestined to salvation.

1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Romans 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Romans 9:11
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

This whole discusstion of "predestination" is ridiculous. Because of who God is as he is 1. Outside of time 2. Knows everything that is, was and will be, what possibly could be, and has all of this forever 3. is so far beyond us we cannot comprehend nor will we ever be able to 4. gives us as we exist in time choices (do you not know you have a free choice to accepet Him or follow him? If not wake up) 5. hates human philosophy that dilutes his word every time (and that is what this discussion does).

So why waste time discussing. Certainly God knows what happens. Eph 2:10 says "you are God's MASTERPIECE created in Christ Jesus to do good works which GOD PREPARED IN ADVANCE for you to do.

But we all have free will choices now do we not? So why waste time trying to fignure out and explaining time compared to God? I rest in what HIS EXPIRED word tells me. It tells me Behold I stand at the door and knock" and he is knocking at every door. It is the decision of us to open the door and let him in. That happens in our lives in a time-space dimension. So what do you gain by any discussion of predestination at all? The is irrelevant to your life and the task God called you to and that is to share the good news of Jesus Christ and to make disciples. Human philosophy ALWAYS destroys God's word.

 

[cronjecj]

This whole discusstion of "predestination" is ridiculous. Because of who God is as he is 1. Outside of time 2. Knows everything that is, was and will be, what possibly could be, and has all of this forever 3. is so far beyond us we cannot comprehend nor will we ever be able to 4. gives us as we exist in time choices (do you not know you have a free choice to accepet Him or follow him? If not wake up) 5. hates human philosophy that dilutes his word every time (and that is what this discussion does).

So why waste time discussing. Certainly God knows what happens. Eph 2:10 says "you are God's MASTERPIECE created in Christ Jesus to do good works which GOD PREPARED IN ADVANCE for you to do.

But we all have free will choices now do we not? So why waste time trying to fignure out and explaining time compared to God? I rest in what HIS EXPIRED word tells me. It tells me Behold I stand at the door and knock" and he is knocking at every door. It is the decision of us to open the door and let him in. That happens in our lives in a time-space dimension. So what do you gain by any discussion of predestination at all? The is irrelevant to your life and the task God called you to and that is to share the good news of Jesus Christ and to make disciples. Human philosophy ALWAYS destroys God's word.

Hi HeIsNowHere,

No it isn't ridiculous because predestined is in the word.
Yes and God is more then we can comprehend. but that we do know is we study His word.
This discussion is not about philosophy because it's backed up by scripture and not man's imagination.

We discuss these things so that we can see with our own eyes it's written that those who believe are predestined to be made His righteousness and those who refuse to believe are preordained unto damnation is this not so?

Yes we have free will to choose whatever we want so be rest assured in His word and that He knocks at your door but by discussing predestination is for all of us that believe so that we can rejoice and be happy because we are called to be His righteousness afterall it is Him that calleth not him that willeth. So this is not human philosophy this is truth out of the word.

 

[cronjecj]

God foreknew,

1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Rejoice yea therefore, partakers of the elect.

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved, but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Romans 11:5-7
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works, otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for.

Romans 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Colossaians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness,
humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness.

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people, that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure, for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

 

[Abiding]

HeIsNowHere says

This whole discusstion of "predestination" is ridiculous.
Human philosophy ALWAYS destroys God's word.
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Not so this information is vital to a believer.
Were you born with information of the attributes and decrees of God?

 

[Crossfire]

I think the key to understanding to understanding the biblical concept of 'predestination' is understanding that God Himself exists outside of mankind's perception of time. While man measures time in a straight line, God is completely capable of of viewing time from the beginning, the end and all points in between - all at the once. When you are able to comprehend this, not only will you begin to understand how predestination works but it helps you understand God's sovereignty also. God is in no way, shape or form threatened by the free will of man.

Personally, I have no problem with the biblical concept of predestination. However, I'm particularly fond of the Calvinistic definition and how some Calvinistic sects have used it as an excuse to harm others.

 

[Crossfire]

I think the key to understanding to understanding the biblical concept of 'predestination' is understanding that God Himself exists outside of mankind's perception of time. While man measures time in a straight line, God is completely capable of of viewing time from the beginning, the end and all points in between - all at the once. When you are able to comprehend this, not only will you begin to understand how predestination works but it helps you understand God's sovereignty also. God is in no way, shape or form threatened by the free will of man.

Personally, I have no problem with the biblical concept of predestination. However, I'm particularly fond of the Calvinistic definition and how some Calvinistic sects have used it as an excuse to harm others.

That last line should read:

However, I'm NOT particularly fond of the Calvinistic definition and how some Calvinistic sects have used it as an excuse to harm others.

 

[Crossfire]

Here's a visual illustration that I like to use to help people understand the difference between how humans perceive time and how God perceives time.

Humans perceive time like a ruler with a beginning, a middle and an end:

However, since time is but one demension of creation, God, being Creator, exists outside of time thus God perceives time like a wiffle ball. He can both see and personally interact with it from any angle - at any time - all at once.

I hope this helps!

 

[cronjecj]

I think the key to understanding to understanding the biblical concept of 'predestination' is understanding that God Himself exists outside of mankind's perception of time. While man measures time in a straight line, God is completely capable of of viewing time from the beginning, the end and all points in between - all at the once. When you are able to comprehend this, not only will you begin to understand how predestination works but it helps you understand God's sovereignty also. God is in no way, shape or form threatened by the free will of man.

Personally, I have no problem with the biblical concept of predestination. However, I'm particularly fond of the Calvinistic definition and how some Calvinistic sects have used it as an excuse to harm others.

Good explanation, i agree with you here 100%

Peace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I am happy for you that all you want to be is PUPPETS.



God bless you.

A puppet has no free will. He does what the puppet master wants.

Predestination does not remove free will. It is based on free will. If God wanted us to be puppets. there would be no sin in the world. And all who are saved would never sin again. but would always do what God says. This is not the case.

 

[2knowhim]

What if God, in His Ultimate Wisdom, Knew that Sin would play a huge role in our coming to know Him in all His Attributes? I mean, how would we
know Him as Savior if we never had anything to be saved from? Would we know Him as Mercy, if we never needed Mercy? If we never experienced
worry and and stress would we really come to know Him as our Peace? What if we were made perfect and sin never entered this world?
Can you imagine all the ways we would miss out on coming to know Him and all He is? I mean to me it's a joy to find out something new about our Lord, that I
didn't know before. It's a wonderful journey, in seeking Him. Could we have a relationship with Him like we do, if it were not for sin? I don't know just
thinking out loud. But I have thought of this before, even though God is God and can do anything have anything etc. etc. ......before us, .....being God must have
been mighty lonely ya know? I think God who is Love, has to have an object for that affection because it is soooooooooo Great, but in order for us to
truly be able to recieve such Love, I think it was nessasary for us to fall into such great depravation as sin in order for us to really appreciate and Honor
that Love. So predistined, puppets, sheep, dog whatever we are does it really matter? I just want to be the one on the recieving side of such Great Love
How about you?

 

[Abiding]

What if God, in His Ultimate Wisdom, Knew that Sin would play a huge role in our coming to know Him in all His Attributes? I mean, how would we
know Him as Savior if we never had anything to be saved from? Would we know Him as Mercy, if we never needed Mercy? If we never experienced
worry and and stress would we really come to know Him as our Peace? What if we were made perfect and sin never entered this world?
Can you imagine all the ways we would miss out on coming to know Him and all He is? I mean to me it's a joy to find out something new about our Lord, that I
didn't know before. It's a wonderful journey, in seeking Him. Could we have a relationship with Him like we do, if it were not for sin? I don't know just
thinking out loud. But I have thought of this before, even though God is God and can do anything have anything etc. etc. ......before us, .....being God must have
been mighty lonely ya know? I think God who is Love, has to have an object for that affection because it is soooooooooo Great, but in order for us to
truly be able to recieve such Love, I think it was nessasary for us to fall into such great depravation as sin in order for us to really appreciate and Honor
that Love. So predistined, puppets, sheep, dog whatever we are does it really matter? I just want to be the one on the recieving side of such Great Love
How about you?

Yes very true....an old christian addage "Oh blessed Fall" ...Yes this backdrop we live in shows His lovelyness
as well as all His Holy attributes that would otherwise be taken for granted or just go unnoticed. Im always aware of this. He always stands as my saviour everyday as we tromp through this evil world. Good point.

 

[Abiding]

Crossfire ...yes ...even further God doesnt even think. He has no
need to think. Its great to know these things about our God.