The error of eternal justification

[tribesman]

Eternal Justification?

​

[The doctrine of eternal justification, a chief tenet of Antinomian Hyper-Calvinism, is dealt a crushing blow by the Puritan John Flavel in an appendix to his Vindiciarum Vindex. Flavel rightly describes it as an attempt to fight against the free grace of God under grace's own colours. Hence its success in deceiving the unwary. The following is a summary of his arguments against it, extracted from his general condemnation of Antinomianism. Ed.]

Flavel first concedes that the notion of justification from eternity is not as great an error as the Popish view, which depresses the righteousness of Christ and exalts inherent righteousness. He further believes that some who hold this error in their heads have the truth in their hearts, a fact which thankfully "will not suffer them to reduce their own opinions into practice."

Nevertheless, he sees it as dangerous teaching that needs to be exposed. Six of the grave errors connected with it are:

1. The elect were justified in eternity (or at the time of Christ's death).
2. In justification the elect are persuaded of Christ's love for them.
3. We ought no more to question our faith than to question Christ.
4. Believers should not confess sin or pray for its forgiveness, because all their sins being pardoned from eternity, they are no longer sins.
5. God sees no sin in believers, whatever sins they may commit.
6. To say that God is angry with the elect is a reflection on His justice.

These, says Flavel, are principal errors, and are "of a very dangerous nature." Despite the whole "scope and current of Scripture" and the "experience and practice of the saints" being against them, they nevertheless gain great sway over people.

1. That the elect are not justified from eternity is clear, because although their justification is purposed in eternity, it is not purchased and applied until time. We are justified by Christ's blood and by faith. (Rom. 5.9,1) The elect sinner is not freed from condemnation nor justified till he is united to Christ, which union is by faith, and takes place during the elect's life-time. It is both irrational and unscriptural to imagine that men can be justified before they exist. God's purpose or intention to justify them is not the same as His actually justifying them. Besides, John 3.18 expressly declares that only "he that believeth in Him (Christ) is not condemned." Furthermore, in the great chain of salvation mentioned in Romans 8.30, the elect are first predestined and called before they are justified. Lastly, it is highly derogatory to Christ to teach eternal justification, for men had to be lost before He could save them. Justification is the fruit of His meritorious death and satisfaction given to justice. Justification is not, therefore, from eternity.

2. That justifying faith is not assurance that Christ loves us is evident, because many who believe on Christ for salvation lack such assurance. This is clear both from Isaiah 50.10, which describes a child of light walking in darkness, and from the cases of Job, David, Heman and Asaph. It is receiving Christ, not being persuaded that He loves us, which entitles us to become children of God. (John 1.12) Besides, many are convinced that Christ loves them who are still unconverted. (Luke 18.9; Rev 3.17) Furthermore, this error confuses two kinds of faith that must always be kept distinct: dogmatic faith and saving faith. It is one thing to believe the proposition that God laid the iniquities of us all on Christ. It is another to rest on Christ as our Sin-bearer. The assent of the understanding is not the consent of the heart. As James says: "Thou believest there is one God, thou dost well; the devils also believe, and tremble." (2.19) Lastly, only saving faith, or cleaving to Christ, can support us when we do not know that "He died intentionally for me.”

3. That believers should never doubt or question their faith is also untrue, because examining our faith is an expressly "commanded Scripture duty." "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith" (2 Cor 13.5), "Give diligence to make your calling and election sure" (2 Pet 1.10) and "Look to yourselves, that we lose not the things which we have wrought" (2 John 8) are only a few such commands. This "snare of the devil laid for the souls of men" is all the more dangerous because it leaves no way out for them to recover from their error. "It cuts off all means of conviction or better information, and nails them fast to the carnal state in which they are." What is more, it makes the strong persuasion that we are saved as infallible as the foundation truths of Christianity. It is not enough to believe either that Christ died for sinners, or that He bore away our iniquities. Our hearts are deceitful enough to cheat us on this vital point. We must actually believe on Christ and test our faith for genuineness by the clear marks of Scripture.

4. That believers are not bound to confess their sin, nor pray for its forgiveness, because it was pardoned in eternity, and pardoned sin is no longer sin, is manifestly false, because it implies that there is no sin in believers; whereas Scripture says: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1.8) It also says: "There is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good and sinneth not." (Eccl. 7.20) and "In many things we offend all." (James 3.2) While it is true that the blood of Christ has removed the guilt of believers' sin, its "stain and pollution" remains in them till glory, "even in their justified state." Indeed, there is "considerable evil" in their sins. They "greatly wrong and offend their God" (Psa 51.4) and hinder their communion with Him. (Rom. 7.21) Furthermore, God has expressly declared it to be His will that His people confess their sins before Him (1 John 1.9) and mourn for them (Isa 22.12; Matt 5.4). Paul, Ezra, Daniel and other saints, though justified, all do this. (1 Tim 1.13; Ezra 9; Dan 9)

To the objection that these sins were committed before they were justified, Flavel replies that it makes no difference when they were committed if they were all pardoned from eternity. Besides, Paul's complaints in Romans 7 were "after he was a sanctified and justified person." In short, "the greatest favourites of heaven have freely confessed and heartily prayed for the remission of sin."

5. That God sees no sin in believers, whatever sins they commit, is false, even when claimed under the colour of Scripture. For in Numbers 23.21- "He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, nor seen perverseness in Israel", the original reads: "He hath not beheld wrong against Jacob, nor hath He seen grievance against Israel." That is, says Gataker, God did not approve of the wrongs done by others to His people. The whole context, and especially Balaam's advice to Balak, to draw them into sin so that God would forsake them, confirms this. As for Jeremiah 50.20 - "The iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found" - it means that even their sins shall not lead God to punish them forever.

Besides, God sees everything about us all, both good and evil. (Prov 15.3) Furthermore, He is highly displeased with His people's sins; witness David's adultery and murder (2 Sam 11.27) and presumptuous attendance at the Lord's Supper in Corinth. (1 Cor 11.32).

6. To claim that God's anger with the elect reflects on His justice, because He has already justified them in eternity, is false, because God hates sin in them just as much as in others. Christ's sacrifice did not abolish God's hatred of sin in believers. It merely took away His hatred to their persons. "His hatred to their sins and love to their persons are not inconsistent." Those who would abolish God's anger towards His people fail to distinguish between His judicial, vindicatory wrath and His paternal displeasure. Scripture everywhere speaks of Him laying the rod of chastisement on His wayward children. (Heb 12.8; Job 5.6; 2 Sam 12.9-14; Exod 4.13-14) Indeed, His children themselves acknowledge their sin as the cause of their chastisements. (Lam 3.39-40; Psa 38.3,5; Mic 7.9; Job 22.5-6) Such "fatherly correction of His saints" is fully consistent with God satisfying His justice with the blood of Christ for all their sins. (Psa 89.30-33) Christ never shed His blood to "abolish God's displeasure against sin, in whomsoever it be found." Indeed, it would be unjust of God not to chastise His people when they sin.

We should be thankful for Flavel's refutation of this dangerous error, for in some quarters there is a resurgence of it. Like the supralapsarianism to which it is linked, it derives not from Scripture, but from Plato, via Philo the neo-Platonist Jew and Polanus's 'Syntagma Theologiae Christianae', a standard text-book among theological students after the Reformation. The Platonic archetypal theology it expresses forces Biblical truths concerning God's way of salvation into a rigid strait-jacket that warps the way they are to be understood. Such archetypal theology belongs only to God, and is confined to the perfect knowledge He has of Himself. Into such realms we are forbidden to pry. And whenever the outcome of such prying imposes a restriction on the clear Gospel message of justification through faith in the precious blood of the only Redeemer of God's elect, it both detracts from the free grace of God and closes the door of salvation to poor, needy souls. May we be warned. Theologians can devise subtle ways of excluding both themselves and others from the kingdom of God. There is only one answer to the momentous question: "What must I do to be saved?" It is: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." "And by Him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." (Acts 13.39)

Peace and Truth: The Magazine of the Sovereign Grace Union, 2004:1 With permission

Banner of Truth Trust General Articles <-link

 

[prophecyman]

The Spirit and the bride say... Come, and whosoever will let him come and drink of the waters of life freely.

True Salvation will always involve a calling from God to repentance. God will not violate the will of man, it must be by choice that a man will submit himself to the will of God.

True faith is obedience to God, works without faith is dead being alone. To believe God is to obey God.

To trust in works alone for Salvation is error, Christ saves alone, but doing his word and obeying his commands is the completion of our faith and love for the Father.

 

[resurrection33]

The Lord has to discipline us when we sin, so as to influence us to stop sinning. This will never change.

 

[tribesman]

[SIZE=+2]The Doctrine of Eternal Justification: A Critique[/SIZE]
by Fred G. Zaspel
​

Definition

Justification is a pronouncement of righteousness. It is God&#8217;s &#8220;legal&#8221; or official declaration that a person stands &#8220;righteous&#8221; before him as judged by his law. This righteous standing is grounded in the person and work of Christ, the sinner&#8217;s substitute who took the sinner&#8217;s guilt to himself on the cross under the judgment of God and therefore satisfied the just demands of God against him. In turn, Christ&#8217;s righteousness is imputed to the sinner, and he is given a new status, standing now before God free of all his sin and credited with all the righteousness of Christ. In short, Christ in his redemptive work is the meritorious cause of justification (solus Christus).

But exactly when this justification is applied to the elect is a question on which Reformed theologians have not always agreed. Traditionally and almost universally, Reformed theology has affirmed that sinners are justified / pronounced righteous before God upon faith in Christ. This is the well-known Reformation dogma, justification by faith alone (sola fide).

The doctrine of &#8220;eternal justification,&#8221; by contrast, affirms that God pronounces elect sinners righteous from eternity, that their justification is not made actual or complete in time but in eternity past. Though a given elect sinner is yet unregenerate and unbelieving, he is justified; and his coming to faith merely brings to him an awareness or realization of his eternal justification by God&#8217;s grace.

Eternal justification reasons from the standpoint of God&#8217;s eternal and electing decree. God chose a people to save and decreed that Christ the Son would come as their substitute and surety in anticipation of which the elect are pronounced righteous in Christ. They are &#8220;in Christ&#8221; from eternity by God&#8217;s decree and are therefore justified from eternity. Being &#8220;in Christ&#8221; from eternity they cannot be considered guilty but righteous before God based on the redemptive work of Christ.

Problems / Critique

That God decreed from eternity the justification of his elect cannot be denied. Yet several observations serve to militate conclusively against the doctrine of eternal justification.

First, justification is everywhere said to be &#8220;by faith&#8221; (pistei [simple dative of means], ek pisteos, epi pistei, dia pisteos; Rom. 1:16; 3:22, 26, 28, 30; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; etc.). These expressions indicate plainly that faith is the instrumental (but not the meritorious) cause of justification. The meritorious cause of justification is the redemptive work of Christ. Faith is the means, the instrumental cause. Justification is by grace through faith. Paul emphasizes so repeatedly that God justifies the believing sinner that it can scarcely be missed. &#8220;This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ&#8221; (Rom. 3:22; cf. 4:11, 13; 10:6). &#8220;Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness&#8221; (Rom. 4:3). He was not justified before God by his works, but righteousness was credited to him through the instrument of faith. &#8220;With the heart you believe and are justified&#8221; (Rom. 10:10). &#8220;Through him everyone who believes is justified&#8221; (Acts 13:39). &#8220;So we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ&#8221; (Gal. 2:16). Righteousness is imputed not by works but by faith (Rom. 4:5). In order to obtain righteousness one must forsake all self-righteousness and turn in trust to Christ (Phil. 3:9-9). And on this listing of Biblical statements could go. The Biblical language pervasively speaks of justification in terms of a transaction that hinges on faith, and this language is rendered meaningless if, as advocates of eternal justification demand, it means that by faith the elect merely become conscious of a justification that was already theirs.

Closely related to this is the simple statement of Rom. 5:1 that peace with God comes as a result of justification by faith &#8212; &#8220;Having been justified by faith we have peace with God.&#8221; Similarly, Rom. 5:2 states that access into grace comes via faith, not by eternal decree &#8212; &#8220;through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand.&#8221; It is not that the already-justified person by faith merely becomes aware of his already-bestowed privileges but rather that these blessings (peace, access, etc.) are themselves attained by faith. These kinds of statements go much further than the doctrine of eternal justification can allow.

Nor is this a challenge to grace as though faith were a work for which the believer is rewarded, for &#8220;it is of faith that it might be by grace&#8221; (Rom. 4:16). Faith is simply the instrumental means. &#8220;The [justifying] righteousness of faith&#8221; (Rom. 4:13; 10:6) is the righteousness of Christ imputed to the elect by means of faith. The point is too obvious to mistake &#8212; justification comes to us by faith.

Similarly, because justification is by faith, justification is said also to follow calling in the ordo solutis (Rom. 8:30). Justification does not precede faith &#8212; it is granted to those who are called to faith.

Further, although Scripture does speak of us as &#8220;in Christ&#8221; from eternity, it also speaks of our union with Christ as an experience in time, when we believe. For example, In Rom. 16:5 Paul speaks of his &#8220;dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert in Asia to be in Christ&#8221; (aparche tes Asias eis Christon). Similarly in Rom. 16:7 he speaks of Andronicus and Junias &#8220;who were in Christ before me&#8221; (pro emou gegonan en Christon). These words are meaningless read on the grid of eternal justification. Unmistakably, union with Christ is experienced in time. Accordingly, in 2 Cor. 5:17 the apostle describes our union with Christ as the experience by which we become a new creation, the event at which time &#8220;old things pass away and all things become new.&#8221; Not until Saul of Tarsus turned away from his own merit to trust in Christ alone could he receive justifying righteousness and be found in Christ (Phil. 3:7-9). To be sure, none of this is to deny the fact that the elect are chosen in Christ from eternity. But it is to affirm that there is an in-time experiential aspect to our union with Christ that the doctrine of eternal justification cannot accommodate.

Moreover, the New Testament plainly describes all unbelievers as &#8220;condemned already&#8221; (Jn. 3:18; cf. 3:36). &#8220;Just as&#8221; all the non-elect, believers were themselves children of wrath (Eph. 2:1-3) and are therefore brands snatched from the fire that apart from faith would have been their end (Zech. 3:2). Before faith the elect are guilty, condemned, and the objects of God&#8217;s wrath. That is to say, they are not yet justified. God justifies the believing sinner (Rom. 4:5). Once again, peace with God comes via faith (Rom. 5:1).

Summary

That God decreed the justification of his elect from eternity cannot be denied. But if election is made the sole grid through which justification is understood, rather than allowing that doctrine to be exposed in its own Biblical framework, then many Biblical statements will be twisted and forced into a mold that cannot fit them. The Biblical writers everywhere speak of even elect (unbelieving) sinners as guilty, condemned, and ungodly, of justification in terms of a transaction that hinges on faith, and of union with Christ as experienced at conversion. Until the sinner is united to Christ by faith he is not yet freed from condemnation (Rom. 5:1).

The justification of God&#8217;s elect is 1) decreed in eternity, 2) accomplished in time by Christ blood, and 3) applied to individual experience through faith. If these distinctions are confused the Biblical doctrine of justification will be distorted.

Eternal Justification <-link

 

[AnandaHya]

interesting topic.....thanks for sharing.... for those who don't know what this word meant either.....


supralapsarianism

you're a font of new vocabulary words tribeman

supralapsarian - definition of supralapsarian by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

(Christian Religious Writings / Theology) Christian theol, chiefly Calvinist a person who believes that God decreed the election or nonelection of individuals to salvation even before the Fall

 

[Forest]

[SIZE=+2]The Doctrine of Eternal Justification: A Critique[/SIZE]

by Fred G. Zaspel​

Definition

Justification is a pronouncement of righteousness. It is God’s “legal” or official declaration that a person stands “righteous” before him as judged by his law. This righteous standing is grounded in the person and work of Christ, the sinner’s substitute who took the sinner’s guilt to himself on the cross under the judgment of God and therefore satisfied the just demands of God against him. In turn, Christ’s righteousness is imputed to the sinner, and he is given a new status, standing now before God free of all his sin and credited with all the righteousness of Christ. In short, Christ in his redemptive work is the meritorious cause of justification (solus Christus).

But exactly when this justification is applied to the elect is a question on which Reformed theologians have not always agreed. Traditionally and almost universally, Reformed theology has affirmed that sinners are justified / pronounced righteous before God upon faith in Christ. This is the well-known Reformation dogma, justification by faith alone (sola fide).

The doctrine of “eternal justification,” by contrast, affirms that God pronounces elect sinners righteous from eternity, that their justification is not made actual or complete in time but in eternity past. Though a given elect sinner is yet unregenerate and unbelieving, he is justified; and his coming to faith merely brings to him an awareness or realization of his eternal justification by God’s grace.

Eternal justification reasons from the standpoint of God’s eternal and electing decree. God chose a people to save and decreed that Christ the Son would come as their substitute and surety in anticipation of which the elect are pronounced righteous in Christ. They are “in Christ” from eternity by God’s decree and are therefore justified from eternity. Being “in Christ” from eternity they cannot be considered guilty but righteous before God based on the redemptive work of Christ.

Problems / Critique

That God decreed from eternity the justification of his elect cannot be denied. Yet several observations serve to militate conclusively against the doctrine of eternal justification.

First, justification is everywhere said to be “by faith” (pistei [simple dative of means], ek pisteos, epi pistei, dia pisteos; Rom. 1:16; 3:22, 26, 28, 30; 5:1; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; etc.). These expressions indicate plainly that faith is the instrumental (but not the meritorious) cause of justification. The meritorious cause of justification is the redemptive work of Christ. Faith is the means, the instrumental cause. Justification is by grace through faith. Paul emphasizes so repeatedly that God justifies the believing sinner that it can scarcely be missed. “This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ” (Rom. 3:22; cf. 4:11, 13; 10:6). “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness” (Rom. 4:3). He was not justified before God by his works, but righteousness was credited to him through the instrument of faith. “With the heart you believe and are justified” (Rom. 10:10). “Through him everyone who believes is justified” (Acts 13:39). “So we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ” (Gal. 2:16). Righteousness is imputed not by works but by faith (Rom. 4:5). In order to obtain righteousness one must forsake all self-righteousness and turn in trust to Christ (Phil. 3:9-9). And on this listing of Biblical statements could go. The Biblical language pervasively speaks of justification in terms of a transaction that hinges on faith, and this language is rendered meaningless if, as advocates of eternal justification demand, it means that by faith the elect merely become conscious of a justification that was already theirs.

Closely related to this is the simple statement of Rom. 5:1 that peace with God comes as a result of justification by faith — “Having been justified by faith we have peace with God.” Similarly, Rom. 5:2 states that access into grace comes via faith, not by eternal decree — “through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand.” It is not that the already-justified person by faith merely becomes aware of his already-bestowed privileges but rather that these blessings (peace, access, etc.) are themselves attained by faith. These kinds of statements go much further than the doctrine of eternal justification can allow.

Nor is this a challenge to grace as though faith were a work for which the believer is rewarded, for “it is of faith that it might be by grace” (Rom. 4:16). Faith is simply the instrumental means. “The [justifying] righteousness of faith” (Rom. 4:13; 10:6) is the righteousness of Christ imputed to the elect by means of faith. The point is too obvious to mistake — justification comes to us by faith.

Similarly, because justification is by faith, justification is said also to follow calling in the ordo solutis (Rom. 8:30). Justification does not precede faith — it is granted to those who are called to faith.

Further, although Scripture does speak of us as “in Christ” from eternity, it also speaks of our union with Christ as an experience in time, when we believe. For example, In Rom. 16:5 Paul speaks of his “dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert in Asia to be in Christ” (aparche tes Asias eis Christon). Similarly in Rom. 16:7 he speaks of Andronicus and Junias “who were in Christ before me” (pro emou gegonan en Christon). These words are meaningless read on the grid of eternal justification. Unmistakably, union with Christ is experienced in time. Accordingly, in 2 Cor. 5:17 the apostle describes our union with Christ as the experience by which we become a new creation, the event at which time “old things pass away and all things become new.” Not until Saul of Tarsus turned away from his own merit to trust in Christ alone could he receive justifying righteousness and be found in Christ (Phil. 3:7-9). To be sure, none of this is to deny the fact that the elect are chosen in Christ from eternity. But it is to affirm that there is an in-time experiential aspect to our union with Christ that the doctrine of eternal justification cannot accommodate.

Moreover, the New Testament plainly describes all unbelievers as “condemned already” (Jn. 3:18; cf. 3:36). “Just as” all the non-elect, believers were themselves children of wrath (Eph. 2:1-3) and are therefore brands snatched from the fire that apart from faith would have been their end (Zech. 3:2). Before faith the elect are guilty, condemned, and the objects of God’s wrath. That is to say, they are not yet justified. God justifies the believing sinner (Rom. 4:5). Once again, peace with God comes via faith (Rom. 5:1).

Summary

That God decreed the justification of his elect from eternity cannot be denied. But if election is made the sole grid through which justification is understood, rather than allowing that doctrine to be exposed in its own Biblical framework, then many Biblical statements will be twisted and forced into a mold that cannot fit them. The Biblical writers everywhere speak of even elect (unbelieving) sinners as guilty, condemned, and ungodly, of justification in terms of a transaction that hinges on faith, and of union with Christ as experienced at conversion. Until the sinner is united to Christ by faith he is not yet freed from condemnation (Rom. 5:1).

The justification of God’s elect is 1) decreed in eternity, 2) accomplished in time by Christ blood, and 3) applied to individual experience through faith. If these distinctions are confused the Biblical doctrine of justification will be distorted.

Eternal Justification <-link

Man's faith will not and, indeed, cannot eternally justify himself. Man's faith plays no part in God's grace.

 

[tribesman]

Man's faith will not and, indeed, cannot eternally justify himself. Man's faith plays no part in God's grace.

False. None of these articles here have claimed that man's faith plays any part in anything spoken of here. You are tilting at windmills.These articles have clearly shown that the antinomian error of eternal justidication is unscriptural.

 

[tribesman]

Let's compare some scriptures to what hyper-calvinistic eternal justification advocates believe:

John.1

[12] But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that becoming sons of God and believing on the name of Christ are inseparably connected. That all who are sons of God believe, and that all who do not believe are not sons of God.

John.3

[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that unbelievers are condemned.

John.5

[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all unbelievers are in death and do not have life.

Rom.1

[16] For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
[17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes

Rom.6

[17] But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
[18] Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that a fruit of regeneration is being set free from sin and being enslaved to righteousness and belief in the gospel.

Rom.8

[5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all regenerate persons minds the things of the Spirit and are alive in Christ and that all unregenerate persons minds the things of the flesh and are spiritually dead.

Rom.10

[1] Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[2] For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
[3] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[4] For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel, going about to establish their own righteousness, not submitting to the righteousness of God, are unregenerate.

1Cor.1

[30] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
[31] That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all regenerate persons are given wisdom from God regarding righteousness, sanctification and redemption, so that they will never glory in themselves but only glory in the Lord alone.

1Cor.2

[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all regenerate persons knows what God has given them and eternal justification advocates do not believe that all who are ignorant of these things of the Spirit of God are unregenerate.

1John.5

[1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. .

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all unbelievers are unregenerate..

 

[Forest]

Let's compare some scriptures to what hyper-calvinistic eternal justification advocates believe:

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that becoming sons of God and believing on the name of Christ are inseparably connected. That all who are sons of God believe, and that all who do not believe are not sons of God.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that unbelievers are condemned.
Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all unbelievers are in death and do not have life.
Eternal justification advocates do not believe that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that a fruit of regeneration is being set free from sin and being enslaved to righteousness and belief in the gospel.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all regenerate persons minds the things of the Spirit and are alive in Christ and that all unregenerate persons minds the things of the flesh and are spiritually dead.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel, going about to establish their own righteousness, not submitting to the righteousness of God, are unregenerate.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all regenerate persons are given wisdom from God regarding righteousness, sanctification and redemption, so that they will never glory in themselves but only glory in the Lord alone.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all regenerate persons knows what God has given them and eternal justification advocates do not believe that all who are ignorant of these things of the Spirit of God are unregenerate.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all unbelievers are unregenerate..

Your numerical belief of the regenerate must be a very small amount, Is that right?

 

[tribesman]

Your numerical belief of the regenerate must be a very small amount, Is that right?

You ask a question that is irrelevant to the serious issue at hand. I am not looking for numbers, I'm focusing on the Word of God. I do not speculate about that there must be a certain big or small number of people that must be saved in our time in order to see God's truth on the matter in His revealed word.

All souls that are saved are all saved through the very same principles. Jesus answered in the positive when asked if few be saved (Luke.13:23-24). Although throughout history the saved crowd will be "a great multitude, which no man could number" (Rev.7:9), in some generations very few were saved. In the days of Noah only eight souls were saved (!Pet.3:20). These saved souls all had knowledge of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel. And every single one soul of those billions that met their just end when perishing in the floods were all ignorant of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel. That is what matters.

Also remember that Jesus said that as the days of Noah were, so shall the coming of the Son of man be (Matt.24:37-39).

 

[Forest]

You ask a question that is irrelevant to the serious issue at hand. I am not looking for numbers, I'm focusing on the Word of God. I do not speculate about that there must be a certain big or small number of people that must be saved in our time in order to see God's truth on the matter in His revealed word.

All souls that are saved are all saved through the very same principles. Jesus answered in the positive when asked if few be saved (Luke.13:23-24). Although throughout history the saved crowd will be "a great multitude, which no man could number" (Rev.7:9), in some generations very few were saved. In the days of Noah only eight souls were saved (!Pet.3:20). These saved souls all had knowledge of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel. And every single one soul of those billions that met their just end when perishing in the floods were all ignorant of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel. That is what matters.

Also remember that Jesus said that as the days of Noah were, so shall the coming of the Son of man be (Matt.24:37-39).

When you read a scripture that uses the word saved, save and salvation, you have to understand which salvation is being refered to, either eternal or timely. If all salvation scriptures are taken to be eternal, they will not harmonise. Many of the scriptures you are interpreting to mean eternal actually are refering to a timely salvation or deliverance. I have previously given you examples of timely salvations (deliverances).

 

[tribesman]

When you read a scripture that uses the word saved, save and salvation, you have to understand which salvation is being refered to, either eternal or timely. If all salvation scriptures are taken to be eternal, they will not harmonise. Many of the scriptures you are interpreting to mean eternal actually are refering to a timely salvation or deliverance. I have previously given you examples of timely salvations (deliverances).

True, some scriptures that speak of salvation actually refers to timely matters such as deliverance and healing etc. But there are scriptures that you claim speaks of timely salvation that speaks of eternal salvation. One such example is Mark 16:16. Of course, with your view of eternal justification there are scriptures that do not "harmonise" with your idea, hence you will have to somehow make them say that which fits your idea.

Since you have said:

Anytime that there is a requirement of man to receive salvation, then that salvation would be a timely salvation.

It is clear to me that you also deny the call to and the duty of the elect to repent and believe (Mark 1:14-15). This is really a kind of hyper-calvinism that you promote. Who taught you this? Where did you catch up these ideas? Where do you, or where did you, go to church?

True, some calvinists have taught eternal justification, some of them prominent men like Gill and Kuyper. However, Calvin did not teach this. Hence it, as well as other antinominan deviations, are called various forms of hyper-calvinism.

Some calvinists will sometimes limit the error of eternal justification to be "doctrinal" antinomianism, however its implications will certainly also always mean "practical" antinomianism, where sin is not viewed as sin. Instead of only the sinner being justified, his sin will also be justified. Which is typical of deadly antinomian heresy.

While eternal justification advocates are saying they are keen not to mix in the slightest trace of "contradiction" in the order of salvation, and that they stand for the immutability of God, it is nothing but a presumptous way of wrongly interpreting (in effect denying) scripture that actually attacks not only related biblical concepts but also the very foundation itself of the reformation, which is justification by faith.

 

[Forest]

False. None of these articles here have claimed that man's faith plays any part in anything spoken of here. You are tilting at windmills.These articles have clearly shown that the antinomian error of eternal justidication is unscriptural.

If you are saying I am believing "antinomian" that man's faith alone is what saves him eternally, then you are dead wrong. Have you not read any of my posts? I am saying that a person is saved eternally by God's grace alone and Christ's faith in accomplishing his Fathers will.

 

[Forest]

Let's compare some scriptures to what hyper-calvinistic eternal justification advocates believe:

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that becoming sons of God and believing on the name of Christ are inseparably connected. That all who are sons of God believe, and that all who do not believe are not sons of God.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that unbelievers are condemned.
Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all unbelievers are in death and do not have life.
Eternal justification advocates do not believe that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that a fruit of regeneration is being set free from sin and being enslaved to righteousness and belief in the gospel.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all regenerate persons minds the things of the Spirit and are alive in Christ and that all unregenerate persons minds the things of the flesh and are spiritually dead.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all who are ignorant of the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel, going about to establish their own righteousness, not submitting to the righteousness of God, are unregenerate.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all regenerate persons are given wisdom from God regarding righteousness, sanctification and redemption, so that they will never glory in themselves but only glory in the Lord alone.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all regenerate persons knows what God has given them and eternal justification advocates do not believe that all who are ignorant of these things of the Spirit of God are unregenerate.

Eternal justification advocates do not believe that all unbelievers are unregenerate..

I do believe that the scriptures teach that Christ eternally justified all of those he died for which were those that God gave him. I do believe that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not eternal salvation, but, many timely salvations. I do believe that all unregenerated persons do mind the things of the flesh and are spiritually dead. I do believe that some of God's elect, after they have been quickened to a spiritual life do not understand the truth of Christ's doctrine. I do believe that some of Gos's elect that have been regenerated do glory in themselves for obtaining eternal salvation by their good works.

 

[Forest]

You ask a question that is irrelevant to the serious issue at hand. I am not looking for numbers, I'm focusing on the Word of God. I do not speculate about that there must be a certain big or small number of people that must be saved in our time in order to see God's truth on the matter in His revealed word.

All souls that are saved are all saved through the very same principles. Jesus answered in the positive when asked if few be saved (Luke.13:23-24). Although throughout history the saved crowd will be "a great multitude, which no man could number" (Rev.7:9), in some generations very few were saved. In the days of Noah only eight souls were saved (!Pet.3:20). These saved souls all had knowledge of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel. And every single one soul of those billions that met their just end when perishing in the floods were all ignorant of the righteousness of God, revealed in the gospel. That is what matters.

Also remember that Jesus said that as the days of Noah were, so shall the coming of the Son of man be (Matt.24:37-39).

In the flood event it does not say that Noah was saved eternally, but saved from drowning. Also remember that Noah's event was a like figure of baptism which is not eternal but being saved timely from his guilty conscience.

 

[Forest]

True, some scriptures that speak of salvation actually refers to timely matters such as deliverance and healing etc. But there are scriptures that you claim speaks of timely salvation that speaks of eternal salvation. One such example is Mark 16:16. Of course, with your view of eternal justification there are scriptures that do not "harmonise" with your idea, hence you will have to somehow make them say that which fits your idea.

Since you have said:



It is clear to me that you also deny the call to and the duty of the elect to repent and believe (Mark 1:14-15). This is really a kind of hyper-calvinism that you promote. Who taught you this? Where did you catch up these ideas? Where do you, or where did you, go to church?

True, some calvinists have taught eternal justification, some of them prominent men like Gill and Kuyper. However, Calvin did not teach this. Hence it, as well as other antinominan deviations, are called various forms of hyper-calvinism.

Some calvinists will sometimes limit the error of eternal justification to be "doctrinal" antinomianism, however its implications will certainly also always mean "practical" antinomianism, where sin is not viewed as sin. Instead of only the sinner being justified, his sin will also be justified. Which is typical of deadly antinomian heresy.

While eternal justification advocates are saying they are keen not to mix in the slightest trace of "contradiction" in the order of salvation, and that they stand for the immutability of God, it is nothing but a presumptous way of wrongly interpreting (in effect denying) scripture that actually attacks not only related biblical concepts but also the very foundation itself of the reformation, which is justification by faith.

I have said in many of my posts that I have never read John Calvin's beliefs. I think that scripture proves scripture if the Greek translations are interpreted right. You have reflected that you do in part understand that all salvation scriptures do not nessacerly mean eternal, but that some of them are refering to timely deliverances. Thats a start, now if you would consider what salvation a perticular verse is refering to it will help to eleminate contradicting scriptures. Mark 16:16 is an example of a timely deliverance in the fact that you are delivered from a guilty conscience 1 Pet 3:21. When Christ has washed our sins away, no sin will be held accountable to us as far as the way that God looks upon his elect.

 

[tribesman]

If you are saying I am believing "antinomian" that man's faith alone is what saves him eternally, then you are dead wrong. Have you not read any of my posts? I am saying that a person is saved eternally by God's grace alone and Christ's faith in accomplishing his Fathers will.

What I am saying is that eternal justification advocates takes out the law and thereby God's justice in the salvation equation. For them the sins of God's people were no real sins. This is unscriptural.

I do believe that the scriptures teach that Christ eternally justified all of those he died for which were those that God gave him. I do believe that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not eternal salvation, but, many timely salvations. I do believe that all unregenerated persons do mind the things of the flesh and are spiritually dead. I do believe that some of God's elect, after they have been quickened to a spiritual life do not understand the truth of Christ's doctrine. I do believe that some of Gos's elect that have been regenerated do glory in themselves for obtaining eternal salvation by their good works.

If you do not believe that the gospel is the power of God unto (eternal) salvation for everyone that believes, then what do you believe is the power of God unto (eternal) salvation? And how can somebody know that they possess this? And how do you discern and judge who is eternally saved or not? This is getting quite extreme...

In the flood event it does not say that Noah was saved eternally, but saved from drowning. Also remember that Noah's event was a like figure of baptism which is not eternal but being saved timely from his guilty conscience.

This one was also very odd! Cannot recall I've ever heard anything similar before elsewhere. With your reasoning there could well have been elect that perished in the flood? Since the ark was only all about timely salvation, and not being drowned. So when Jesus said that the flood "destroyed them all" (Luke 17:27), people which 2Pet.2:5 says were "ungodly" and was not "spared", they only drowned "timely", there could still have been "eternally saved" souls among the drowned?

What person/group in church history has believed as you do on this one? Or, are you alone to believe this? Everyone before you got this all wrong?

 

[tribesman]

I have said in many of my posts that I have never read John Calvin's beliefs. I think that scripture proves scripture if the Greek translations are interpreted right. You have reflected that you do in part understand that all salvation scriptures do not nessacerly mean eternal, but that some of them are refering to timely deliverances. Thats a start, now if you would consider what salvation a perticular verse is refering to it will help to eleminate contradicting scriptures. Mark 16:16 is an example of a timely deliverance in the fact that you are delivered from a guilty conscience 1 Pet 3:21. When Christ has washed our sins away, no sin will be held accountable to us as far as the way that God looks upon his elect.

It may be that someone or some group has influenced you, even if you do not know the roots of the theories. Anyway, how does it come that you think that you interpret all scripture correct? Yes, it is obvious to many people who seriously study the Bible that there is such a thing as timely salvation and another thing is salvation for eternity. However, which of them two is being spoken of (and how it is applied) is seen in the context at hand as well as in the totality of all scripture. It is not discerned and divided to "harmonise" with any idea, pre-conceived or not. Even if scripture appears to have contradictions, we must still let scripture speak for itself and not put in a meaning in them which is not there. This thread has shown that the claims of the eternal justification advocates falls flat in the light of scripture.

 

[shroom2]

It may be that someone or some group has influenced you, even if you do not know the roots of the theories. Anyway, how does it come that you think that you interpret all scripture correct? Yes, it is obvious to many people who seriously study the Bible that there is such a thing as timely salvation and another thing is salvation for eternity. However, which of them two is being spoken of (and how it is applied) is seen in the context at hand as well as in the totality of all scripture. It is not discerned and divided to "harmonise" with any idea, pre-conceived or not. Even if scripture appears to have contradictions, we must still let scripture speak for itself and not put in a meaning in them which is not there. This thread has shown that the claims of the eternal justification advocates falls flat in the light of scripture.

I believe on another forum Forest said he is a "Primitive Baptist".

(Forest, if my memory is incorrect, I apologize, and please correct me.)

 

[tribesman]

I believe on another forum Forest said he is a "Primitive Baptist"...

Well, now I begin to connect some dots here...Yes, indeed many primitive baptists believed/believes in eternal justification!

Actually, John Gill is quite an authority in these circles. The PBs are not confessional calvinists, they even distance themselves from the reformed baptist creeds. They are a kind of "calvinistic" baptists who put pretty much emphasis on differing timely and eternal salvation. They are often called hyper-calvinists.

I got interested in the PBs for a while some years back and read up on it, and then I discovered the antinomian leanings (which most of them have). Thanks for sharing. Even if Forest may not be affiliated with this group, there really are some similarities.