50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

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Runningman

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In fact Paul is contradicting.........the false teachers who are contradicting the pretrib rapture.

That passage is possibly the most supportive Scripture for the pretrib rapture in all of the Bible.
How people can get it backwards simply beggars the imagination. I mean what more do you want?
You think the passage that says the falling away [of the church] and the revelation of the anto-Christ before the return of Christ are the most supportive pre-trib verses?

That doesn't even make sense.
 

Runningman

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I love reading these rapture threads. Every time I do the pre-trib rapture wins hands down. Over and over again. Really it's not much of a fight.
Funny because when I first heard of the pre-trib rapture doctrine clearly layed out it was on the message board by you or one of the other pre-tribbers. I took a good look at it and immediately noticed a lot of red flags, false doctrine, poor scripture interpretation, etc. It doesn't make sense. It's definitely a false doctrine.

Since then I have learned so much. Now I can defend the faith much more efficiently than when I first started. Thanks for helping me scrutinize my views by asking hard questions. Post-tribualtion stands the test of truth.
 

Runningman

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The text does not state: "is at hand"... instead, the text states "IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative; G1764 - enestēken - https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm ]"... then note what the "PERFECT indicative" ("PERFECT tense") means... it doesn't mean that it is something that is UPCOMING (ahead) and soon-but-yet-to-occur, no.



The words you supplied are not in the text. I'm supplying the words which ARE in the text.

And that is just the START of our going over this text.



They do mean what they say.

The issue is, they do not say what you've presented them to be saying (and I'm just talking, here, about the one phrase thus far).

This is the case with quite a few of the phrases in this context: either they actually SAY something different, or in another place are DEFINED differently than how it's "commonly defined" out there (instead of the "biblical" definition of such-and-such--Example: the "Amill-teaching's" definition of "the day of the Lord" is "off"/not accurate [which, MANY OTHERS simply "repeat as true"]... so there we get to the next point in what Paul is actually conveying here.)


So, for [one of] the first question / fill-in-the-blanks, you get a "failing grade," so to speak :D

Try again. We all have to do this, so you're not alone. = )
So you disagree with the rendering of the scriptures by the KJV? The KJV says "is at hand" hypothetically. The day of Christ won't be at hand until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed. Don't be deceived. In any case, if you disagree with the word of God that's between you and God.

Regardless of how you circumnavigate the truth presented to you, the unfolding of real-world events will match scripture.

If you aren't prepared the great tribulation will appear and the rapture you're expecting won't happen.

The falling away, great apostasy, of the church will most likely be a lot of pre-tribbers who didn't get raptured and are either disillusioned or angry at God. They'll fall away in masses and then the man of sin will be revealed.
 

Truth7t7

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You are welcome to interpret it to suit you.

Nobody is stopping you.

I have reported what is there

You SPECIFICALLY ignore it.

But that is your privlidge.
I am just a reporter.

Nowhere do you unpack the rapture verses.
Rev 14 also remains untouched.
It is neither the coming on horses or the rapture.

You are going to deflect every single thing presented.

Every item is deflected.

Every time.
Deflect?

Your teaching isnt real, a big smile every time I read it, make believe

Not even close to what scripture states or teaches, not close
 

Truth7t7

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So you disagree with the rendering of the scriptures by the KJV? The KJV says "is at hand" hypothetically. The day of Christ won't be at hand until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed. Don't be deceived. In any case, if you disagree with the word of God that's between you and God.

Regardless of how you circumnavigate the truth presented to you, the unfolding of real-world events will match scripture.

If you aren't prepared the great tribulation will appear and the rapture you're expecting won't happen.

The falling away, great apostasy, of the church will most likely be a lot of pre-tribbers who didn't get raptured and are either disillusioned or angry at God. They'll fall away in masses and then the man of sin will be revealed.
I believe the false teaching in Millennialism is preparing the way for the future (Man of Sin/Antichrist)?

The teaching has a physical Christ returning, taking a literal throne of David in Jerusalem amongst mortal humans, starting a Millennium on earth?

Bingo! The Little Horn, Man Of Sin, The Beast, The Antichrist
 

cv5

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You think the passage that says the falling away [of the church] and the revelation of the anto-Christ before the return of Christ are the most supportive pre-trib verses?

That doesn't even make sense.
It doesn't make sense because of your bush-league Biblical knowledge and failures of exegesis.
Same goes with the rest of the people supporting post-trib. Very shoddy work and shot full of holes......rambling incoherent inconclusive.

TDW is crushing it. One grand slam after another. Sweeping the series. Golfed 18 shot 18.

This victory coming by vastly superior & comprehensive biblical knowledge, correctly translating the specific greek terms, coordinating OT prophecies with New Testament revelation.

Y'all should be doing yourself a big favor by paying strict attention.
 

cv5

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Funny because when I first heard of the pre-trib rapture doctrine clearly layed out it was on the message board by you or one of the other pre-tribbers. I took a good look at it and immediately noticed a lot of red flags, false doctrine, poor scripture interpretation, etc. It doesn't make sense. It's definitely a false doctrine.

Since then I have learned so much. Now I can defend the faith much more efficiently than when I first started. Thanks for helping me scrutinize my views by asking hard questions. Post-tribualtion stands the test of truth.
My friend.........you are getting your clock cleaned. It's not even close.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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So you disagree with the rendering of the scriptures by the KJV? The KJV says "is at hand" hypothetically.
No. The text does not say that.

Instead of "is at hand," it says, "is present [PERFECT indicative]".

And the "PERFECT tense" means:

"ACTION COMPLETED at a SPECIFIC POINT of TIME in PAST (●) with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT (▬►). In certain contexts the results are PERMANENT."

Your "definition" is not fitting the actual word here.



See the LISTING of the 7 occurrences of this word (only 2Tim3:1 is in the "FUTURE tense"):

https://biblehub.com/greek/1764.htm [LISTING at right hand side]



Again, our present verse under discussion is "PERFECT tense, indicative"... so should read "IS PRESENT".



Now, the question becomes, just WHAT was it they (those telling them this) were saying "IS PRESENT"? What "IS PRESENT," according to the verse (that is, what others were telling them was the case, at that time)??

"[(anyone)... purporting] that ________ IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]" [<--how do you "define" the phrase that fits in that blank?]

What were those false conveyors telling the Thessalonians... "IS PRESENT"?
 

Truth7t7

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Apostasia in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 means a defection from the truth. It means a falling away from the truth. The group who has the truth is the church. The church will fall away from the truth.

Jesus will not return until this happens, meaning that the "man of sin" also known as the anti-Christ has already been revealed.

This means that Jesus returns post-tribulation

Pre-tribbers have the cart in front of the horse, bringing Jesus back prior to the entrance of the anti-Christ on the scene. 2 Thessalonians 2 contradicts the pre-trib narrative.

It's not very complicated. I think if we follow definitions properly and just let the Bible speak for itself there is no case to make for pre-trib.

Jesus plainly says He returns after the [great] tribulation anyway. Shouldn't that be enough?
Good post

2 Thessalonians 2:3 is the verse the Lord used to wake me up 20 years ago, when I was sitting in the pew shouting amen to the false pre-trib teaching

Didnt have a clue about John N Darby or Adulterer C.I. Scofield being fathers of the false teaching

Thank you Lord Jesus!
 

TheDivineWatermark

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If you aren't prepared the great tribulation will appear and the rapture you're expecting won't happen.
"The GREAT tribulation" is speaking SOLELY of the SECOND HALF of the seven years. It doesn't simply "APPEAR".

The "whose COMING [/advent / arrival / presence / parousia]" of the "man of sin" (2Th2:9a) will have already occurred WAY before that point in time, as will have FOUR out of the SEVEN [judgment] Trumpets (not to mention the SEALS preceding those FOUR), by this point you are speaking of with your word: "appear" ('the great tribulation will appear...').

Your "chronology" is WAY off... You seem to be simply "going with the flow" of things you've "heard" (and simply repeating it), rather than "what you've put" having come from a place of thorough "study" (yourself).
 

Truth7t7

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Funny because when I first heard of the pre-trib rapture doctrine clearly layed out it was on the message board by you or one of the other pre-tribbers. I took a good look at it and immediately noticed a lot of red flags, false doctrine, poor scripture interpretation, etc. It doesn't make sense. It's definitely a false doctrine.

Since then I have learned so much. Now I can defend the faith much more efficiently than when I first started. Thanks for helping me scrutinize my views by asking hard questions. Post-tribualtion stands the test of truth.
(Dispensationalism) is not only a false teaching in a pre-trib rapture, but it also falsely teaches the book of Revelation is taught in chronological order a lie!

The book of Revelation is taught in parallel teachings of same events

(Dispensationalism's) false chronological teaching, allows for the invention of "Multiple" accounts of events at different times, Resurrections, Wars, etc (A Lie)

(Dispensationalism) also falsely teaches a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus Chrsit, where Jesus Christ will take a physical throne of David in Jerusalem on this earth amongst mortal humans?

This will be the future Little Horn, Man Of Sin, The Beast, The Antichrist
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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It doesn't make sense because of your bush-league Biblical knowledge and failures of exegesis.
Same goes with the rest of the people supporting post-trib. Very shoddy work and shot full of holes......rambling incoherent inconclusive.

TDW is crushing it. One grand slam after another. Sweeping the series. Golfed 18 shot 18.

This victory coming by vastly superior & comprehensive biblical knowledge, correctly translating the specific greek terms, coordinating OT prophecies with New Testament revelation.

Y'all should be doing yourself a big favor by paying strict attention.
Nobody even reads DivineWatermarks Chaos in posts, and I'm one of them

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in scripture, no place!

You will closely note you run about forums with one liners in personal attacks, because you have no scripture to present, because it doesn't exist :giggle:
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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So you disagree with the rendering of the scriptures by the KJV? The KJV says "is at hand" hypothetically. The day of Christ won't be at hand until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed. Don't be deceived. In any case, if you disagree with the word of God that's between you and God.

Regardless of how you circumnavigate the truth presented to you, the unfolding of real-world events will match scripture.

If you aren't prepared the great tribulation will appear and the rapture you're expecting won't happen.

The falling away, great apostasy, of the church will most likely be a lot of pre-tribbers who didn't get raptured and are either disillusioned or angry at God. They'll fall away in masses and then the man of sin will be revealed.
The son of perdition is WHO "appear"s. Not what appears. The tribulation/birth pains/darkness then follows.

Of course Paul is staying that the rapture comes beforehad. Clearly.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Nobody even reads DivineWatermarks Chaos in posts, and I'm one of them

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture found in scripture, no place!

You will closely note you run about forums with one liners in personal attacks, because you have no scripture to present, because it doesn't exist :giggle:
That is not true.........I read them. Scrupulously carefully and note and read all of the biblical references.

There is no doubt that this person is espousing the correct Biblical position and is speaking the truth in righteousness. No doubt.
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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The son of perdition is WHO "appear"s. Not what appears. The tribulation/birth pains/darkness then follows.

Of course Paul is staying that the rapture comes beforehad. Clearly.
Your claim is false, just as your claim (Apostasia) being a departure of the church to heaven is false

The scripture is very clear, there will be a falling away from a once held beliefs (Apostasy) and the church will be present on earth to witness the (Man of Sin) revealed

(Let No Man Deceive You By Any Means) That includes you :)

2 Thessalonians 2:3KJV
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
 

Absolutely

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In a classic case of dodge ball, this interview showcases the typical postribbers style and technique.


The guy in the white shirt asks specific questions. at the 6;39 mark we can get a clear view of how DR baker cunningly dodges the questions and never answer them. (classic postribbers MO)
FF to 6;39
 

Truth7t7

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That is not true.........I read them. Scrupulously carefully and note and read all of the biblical references.

There is no doubt that this person is espousing the correct Biblical position and is speaking the truth in righteousness. No doubt.
The majority of forum posters have openly stated they dont read Watermark, will you pretend that this isnt a fact

TDW espouses the same false teaching in a pre-trib rapture as you do
 

Absolutely

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You misconstrue his point, hes not saying Paul is Post Trib, or that the Thessalonians were per se, hes saying the people Paul warned the Thessalonians about via their LIES were Post tribers. h-Here you go........

2 Thess 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away(DEPARTURE by the Church NOT from the faith) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So, he is saying that those who MISLED the Thessalonians were Post Tribbers. At least that is the way I took it. We know Paul is a pre trib guy.
not only that it is saying He ..ac...cannot be revealed until something is removed.
 

Truth7t7

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May 19, 2020
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In a classic case of dodge ball, this interview showcases the typical postribbers style and technique.


The guy in the white shirt asks specific questions. at the 6;39 mark we can get a clear view of how DR baker cunningly dodges the questions and never answer them. (classic postribbers MO)
FF to 6;39
Posting a clip of politician (John Kennedy)?

Talk about deflection and diversion from debate, real big smiles! :giggle:
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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Kenneth Wuest, a Greek scholar from Moody Bible Institute added the following contextual support to taking apostasia as a physical departure:

"But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period."

[end quoting]

Something that is holding back is removed.

then the departure.

postribs have re written it to be something entirely different.
all it really says is...like you say.."departure" or "from standing".


that is all it says.


____________

This sequence is repeated 3x in this context (and agrees with same sequence of all other related passages on this Subject).