Communion/ Eucharist Serious Discussion

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Jan 28, 2013
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No.

Again and Again

Jesus first repeated what he said, then summarized: "‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’" (John 6:51–52).
His listeners were stupefied because now they understood Jesus literally—and correctly. He again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53–56).


No Corrections

Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct "misunderstandings," for there were none. Our Lord’s listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically. If they had, if they mistook what he said, why no correction?
On other occasions when there was confusion, Christ explained just what he meant (cf. Matt. 16:5–12). Here, where any misunderstanding would be fatal, there was no effort by Jesus to correct. Instead, he repeated himself for greater emphasis.
In John 6:60 we read: "Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’" These were his disciples, people used to his remarkable ways. He warned them not to think carnally, but spiritually: "It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life" (John 6:63; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12–14).
But he knew some did not believe. (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) "After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him" (John 6:66).
This is the only record we have of any of Christ’s followers forsaking him for purely doctrinal reasons. If it had all been a misunderstanding, if they erred in taking a metaphor in a literal sense, why didn’t he call them back and straighten things out? Both the Jews, who were suspicious of him, and his disciples, who had accepted everything up to this point, would have remained with him had he said he was speaking only symbolically.
But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have "to eat my flesh and drink my blood." John 6 was an extended promise of what would be instituted at the Last Supper—and it was a promise that could not be more explicit. Or so it would seem to a Catholic. But what do Fundamentalists say?

Merely Figurative?

They say that in John 6 Jesus was not talking about physical food and drink, but about spiritual food and drink. They quote John 6:35: "Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.’" They claim that coming to him is bread, having faith in him is drink. Thus, eating his flesh and blood merely means believing in Christ.

But there is a problem with that interpretation. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, "The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense" (O’Brien, The Faith of Millions, 215). For an example of this use, see Micah 3:3.

Fundamentalist writers who comment on John 6 also assert that one can show Christ was speaking only metaphorically by comparing verses like John 10:9 ("I am the door") and John 15:1 ("I am the true vine"). The problem is that there is not a connection to John 6:35, "I am the bread of life." "I am the door" and "I am the vine" make sense as metaphors because Christ is like a door—we go to heaven through him—and he is also like a vine—we get our spiritual sap through him. But Christ takes John 6:35 far beyond symbolism by saying, "For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:55).
He continues: "As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me" (John 6:57). The Greek word used for "eats" (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of "chewing" or "gnawing." This is not the language of metaphor.
Christ in the Eucharist | Catholic Answers
The problem with this, is that there's a million other things christ doesn't 'spell out' for people. This is just another one.

'I and God are one' etc etc.

We don't literally eat his flesh. Because that's just plain wrong.

'Eating' in the bible meant 'learning' or something alike.

Take a look at Ezekiel 3:3; Then he said to me, "Son of man, eat this scroll I am giving you and fill your stomach with it." So I ate it, and it tasted as sweet as honey in my mouth.

What they eat is symbolic of what they then believe. That in Jesus flesh and blood, is the key to eternal life.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
Kenisyes, I can offer yet another theory on the sickenss etc. I too studied all the words in the Bible referring to the word "eat," some time ago, including the word "gluttony". In Jesus' time gluttons were stoned to death & so were drunkards beacause they made their families go hungry & poor. People become overweight for many reasons, like blood poisoning, genes,stomach cancer & other illnesses, medication today, etc. Jesus was accused of being a glutton because He ate at several different people's homes, preaching & being a respectful guest.Nowhere in the Bible does it say Jesus was overweight. It was common in those days for the Romans to be gluttons, what we call today "bulemic". They ate huge amounts of food, vomited it up, & ate more, all day.
Like you said, some words of "eat", mean just to eat, others mean "to devour", as in gluttony/bulemia, whereas the word eat would not suffice. 1 Corin.11:27-30 describes those partaking of the body and blood of Christ "unworthily", bringing damnation unto himself. (spiritual blasphemy??) Catholics are taught, & that belief was posted here, that unworthily means "mortal sins". The Bible does not say this=problem # 1. I agree it is referring to a spiritual damnation, not physical, & this is explained in the following verse, specifically verse 34, which is ALSO referring to a free handout:
1Corin.11:34-"And if any man hunger,let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come." ( This is a physical hunger since one can eat at home before eating the sacrement).
So some people were coming to partake of the body & blood of Christ because they were hungry or gluttons/bulemic, & devouring the offering. They were asked to eat at home first, so they can participate in this service for the right reasons "worthily". Some people today also participate simply for fear of going to hell, with no real love in their heart for Jesus Christ. Other people participate for status in their community or to socialize/gain favor with others, without respect for Our Lord. All of these things would make it sacreligious, but not physically ill.
I looked up the types of sickness in Greek, and they really do seem to be physical in the one verse, after the spiritual are covered in the other. If I understand you, you are saying the verse on physical sickness is motivated by seeing people who eat the communion bread voraciously, and either vomit it to eat more, or eat too quickly. Since no one does that today, the verse does not apply anymore. That would make sense. But even in that event, it makes the verse useless in helping us discern if either the Catholic or the Protestant method is wrong. Since it is possible that you are right, I suppose that means we must not include it in the discussion, since it does not apply to the situation today, and that is what we are discussing.
 
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kenisyes

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1 Corinthians 12:11-14
[SUP]11 [/SUP]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
[SUP]14[/SUP]For the body is not one member, but many.

I didn't find anything wrong with chapters 9-10 of the Didache. (And I really looked too) I also thought your explanation was right on and gives me a better understanding of these verses in 1 Corinthians. It makes the teaching of unity even more important.

We rely on each other to be able to be the body of Christ given to those in need.

I admit that I thought communion was about my own salvation through Christ, only. It never dawned on me that it was much more than that... I should have at least suspected it. Everything with the Lord is so much more than what I originally thought...
Since you say you agree, we should probably see if anyone else finds any points of disagreement. I will attempt to lay this most difficult mystery out in words. Based on the Didache, I conclude the the eucharistic celebration is a celebration and further empowerment to be the effective Body of Christ on earth. We are like grains of wheat harvested from many hills and baked into new bread to be served to a hungry world. They are enslaved in symbolical Egypt, and we are part of their symbolic passover. Because the presence of Christ is in us, we are His flesh on earth. The bread we eat is the bread of each other; we consume each other's potential, so that as "church" we have each others gifts to rely on. This is like the lulav waving at Tabernacles; four branches stand for four types of Christians. Each participant holds the bundle and points toward the six directions in prayers for salvation. Out of many, one. The bread is not a symbol, it is the real presence of Christ. But WE are the bread with that property, not the loaf we consume. The loaf is a symbol of us, but because we are there and agree, we really consume each other.

The wine is done first, but it is called the vine of David. Jesus is descended from David, so He has David's blood in Him. But David means "passionate love". In Song of Songs, the Hebrew is not "my beloved", but "my bepassioned". It is a Hebrew word related ot David's name. The wine, taken first is the symbol of the actual passion for building the Kingdom of God that Jesus had. Because that joy is transferred to us, it is actual "blood", that is it passes on the life of passion. So we consume the actual blood of Christ, but what is in the cup is a symbol of the actual blood inside of us that we share with each other, as we build the Kingdom together. That's why Jesus can say it is His blood, or it is the cup of the New Covenant. The New covenant is founded in His physical blood, but passed on in the blood of joy that the wine gives in its own right. Finally, Paul's observation that we drink and eat to our own destruction follows, since if we do not join with the Body of the Lord (the rest of our church) in building the Kingdom on earth, we will wither as branches off the vine. If we are gifted to help in the project, our gifts languish through disuse, and we start feeling depressed, and that makes us sick.

Very complex! But only because it must be explained from a base that assumes the purpose of church is to be a spectator. If church existed as a shared event where everyone was contributing gifts like prophecy, and miracles, they would sense the flow of Jesus' blood though them in their passion, they would sense the sharing among themselves as they minister to the world around them. Take those things away, and suddenly all that is left is verbiage: "The bread is a symbol of the body of Christ gathered" is the first thing a child being raised in a decaying church remembers in 80AD. To his child's question 20 years later of "why bother", his only answer can be "because it is Jesus' Body", having long forgotten what it feels like to be a vibrant part of a living organism. His child hears, "it is Jesus' skin and bones", and the next generation never can reconstruct the original. Or, remembering the other part of the whole thing, he says "it is a symbol of the body", and another theology is born.
 
Jan 17, 2013
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This came up a few days ago and I meant to address it, and now I see it's come up again...

Concerning what Paul said in Corinthians concerning abuses of the Lord's Supper and people getting physically ill or even dying.

Why don't we still get attacked by serpents whenever we test God (Num. 21:6)? Now look at what St. Paul says only one chapter before he teaches on the Eucharist and the people dying because they received it unworthily;

"Now these things are warnings for us, not to desire evil as they did...We must not put The Lord to the test, as some of them did, and were destroyed by serpents; nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore, let anyone who thinks he stands firm take heed lest he fall." (1 Cor 10:6-12)

God does not strike down everyone who tests him and grumbles at him anymore, though that does not mean it is not a serious sin. He did that to show if we cut ourselves off from the source of all Life, then we are going to die. We cannot see spiritual death, but we see physical death, and that can bring the truth home.
Why wouldn't He do the same thing with the Eucharist? It is a serious matter. We die spiritually if we receive unworthily, so He caused the Corinthians to die physically as a warning to us. To show that we are not just receiving crackers and wine, but The Lord himself.

The fact that it apparently does not happen anymore in no way disproves the Real Presence.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
The fact that it apparently does not happen anymore in no way disproves the Real Presence.
Agreed. But it does not disprove the symbol idea either. That is unfortunate, as it would have been an easy test.
 
Nov 22, 2012
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It is strictly understood as being the real presence of Christ, his true Body and Blood mystically present in the bread and wine which are offered to the Father in his name and consecrated by the divine Spirit of God. In the history of Christian thought, various ways were developed to try to explain how the bread and the wine become the Body and Blood of Christ in the eucharistic liturgy. Quite unfortunately, these explanations often became too rationalistic and too closely connected with certain human philosophies.
One of the most unfortunate developments took place when men began to debate the reality of Christ’s Body and Blood in the eucharist. While some said that the eucharistic gifts of bread and wine were the real Body and Blood of Christ, others said that the gifts were not real, but merely the symbolic or mystical presence of the Body and Blood. The tragedy in both of these approaches is that what is real came to be opposed to what is symbolic or mystical.
The Orthodox Church denies the doctrine that the Body and the Blood of the eucharist are merely intellectual or psychological symbols of Christ’s Body and Blood. If this doctrine were true, when the liturgy is celebrated and holy communion is given, the people would be called merely to think about Jesus and to commune with him “in their hearts.” In this way, the eucharist would be reduced to a simple memorial meal of the Lord’s last supper, and the union with God through its reception would come only on the level of thought or psychological recollection.
On the other hand, however, the Orthodox tradition does use the term “symbols” for the eucharistic gifts. It calls, the service a “mystery” and the sacrifice of the liturgy a “spiritual and bloodless sacrifice.” These terms are used by the holy fathers and the liturgy itself.
The Orthodox Church uses such expressions because in Orthodoxy what is real is not opposed to what is symbolical or mystical or spiritual. On the contrary! In the Orthodox view, all of reality—the world and man himself—is real to the extent that it is symbolical and mystical, to the extent that reality itself must reveal and manifest God to us. Thus, the eucharist in the Orthodox Church is understood to be the genuine Body and Blood of Christ precisely because bread and wine are the mysteries and symbols of God’s true and genuine presence and manifestation to us in Christ. Thus, by eating and drinking the bread and wine which are mystically consecrated by the Holy Spirit, we have genuine communion with God through Christ who is himself “the bread of life” (Jn 6:34, 41).
I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh (Jn 6:51).
Thus, the bread of the eucharist is Christ’s flesh, and Christ’s flesh is the eucharistic bread. The two are brought together into one. The word “symbolical” in Orthodox terminology means exactly this: “to bring together into one.”
Thus we read the words of the Apostle Paul:
For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is broken for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death, until he comes. Whoever, therefore, eats the bread and drinks the cup in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord (1 Cor 11:23-26).
The mystery of the holy eucharist defies analysis and explanation in purely rational and logical terms. For the eucharist—and Christ himself—is indeed a mystery of the Kingdom of Heaven which, as Jesus has told us, is “not of this world.” The eucharist—because it belongs to God’s Kingdom—is truly free from the earth-born “logic” of fallen humanity.
 
Dec 5, 2012
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Agreed. But it does not disprove the symbol idea either. That is unfortunate, as it would have been an easy test.
Kenisyes Have you done research on what did the early christians did? Or this is just a bible only interpretation?
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
Kenisyes Have you done research on what did the early christians did? Or this is just a bible only interpretation?
I've quoted the sources a few times. The problem is defining "early" Christians. The Catholic view is derived from proofs as early as 90AD. The critical issue is if the Didache is earlier or not, and there is no agreement as to the date of the Didache. Assuming the Didache is from say 30AD, that could settle it. Especially if the Didache is really from the hands of the 12 themselves. Style criticism is held to be inconclusive. If the Didache is say 70 or 80AD, then it becomes a duel between sources. So much has been lost from the early writings, that it is pretty much impossible to say which of two or three versions was done by the majority, and which was the deviant.

Standard comparative literary criticism considers it important to account for which source could have caused the other. The causeative source is then hypothesized to be the earlier. This technique is used to label copying errors and "scribal interpolations". That's why I provided a possible scenario that both Catholic and Protestant scenarios could have developed from the one I gave. Can anyone create a scenario that it might have gone the other way, that is that the Catholic scenario could have given rise to a counterfeit theology as embodied in the Didache?
 
Dec 5, 2012
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Grandpa

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1 Peter 1:18-23
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
[SUP]19[/SUP]But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Love of the brethren is the love for the body of Christ. I'm starting to see it. I don't know why I didn't see it earlier. I just knew of the love of the brethren as a commandment, one that didn't seem too difficult because it is hard not to love those that are in Christ.

But what can be difficult is those that are part of the body that are still weak, or sick, accepting as part of the body. Instead of writing them off as not of the body, or not a brother, I can love them still thinking that they just must rely on the healthier parts of the body while they are healing...

There is really a lot to this Kenisyes... Thanks for sharing what God has obviously shown you.
 
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kenisyes

Guest


But what can be difficult is those that are part of the body that are still weak, or sick, accepting as part of the body. Instead of writing them off as not of the body, or not a brother, I can love them still thinking that they just must rely on the healthier parts of the body while they are healing...
There is a neat lesson in the branches (Lev. 23:40) for the Feast of Tabernacles devised by the Jewish rabbis 200BC that applies to this (I mentioned the lulav somewhere above, made of the same branches). Date palm, good fruit bad smell; myrtle, bad fruit, great smell; citron, good fruit, good smell; willow, bad fruit and bad smell. But God demands we use all four. It stands for people who do good; people who speak well about God; people who do both; and people who do neither. God requires all be used. The early Christians celebrated Tabernacles until about 70AD, and often pointed out that "Jesus dwelt among us" (John 1:14), uses the word for the Feast of Tabernacles. So the booth and the lulav is the community composed of all of us, strong and weak, woven together, as a shelter for Him, and for His presence in each other. It's amazing how close the two ideas are, and that both were lost by 80AD. Tabernacles is recovered since 1980, with Israel becoming a nation, and Christians thinking of themselves as grafted in.
 
Nov 22, 2012
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In his exposition The Orthodox Faith, John of Damascus (who though not being a Coptic Orthodox authority - as he is a Father and Saint of the Eastern Orthodox, is nonetheless appealed to by the Coptic Orthodox authorities referred to below) in speaking about the operation of the Holy Spirit in general, makes it very clear that the work of the Holy Spirit "surpass[es] nature and cannot be discerned except by faith alone.” The two examples which he speaks of in the context of this remark are 1) the work of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the Virgin Mary, 2) the Work of the Holy Spirit in the transformation of the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ upon the Holy Altar during the Divine Liturgy. With respect to 2) one of the fundamental differences between the Orthodox and RC conception of the Holy Eucharist is the RC doctrine of “transubstantiation.” The problem the Orthodox have with the doctrine of transubstantiation, is that the RCC sought to rationalise the process by which the transformation takes place, via the imposition of philosophical language and concepts. In contrast, the appropriate and Orthodox answer concerning how the transformation takes place is simply: “by the Holy Spirit”, and the appropriate and Orthodox answer concerning how the Holy Spirit performs the transformation is even more simply: “we don’t know.” This understanding of the Holy Eucharist, and this response to the RCC doctrine of transubstantiation, is advocated by H.G Bishop Youssef on the suscopts.org Q&A section. Furthermore, Lecture XII: The Question of The Real Presence , which is in fact a lecture adapted from The Church Sacraments by Archdeacon Habib Guirgess, in fact appeals to the following quote of John of Damascus in making the case against the doctrine of transubstantiation:
“And now you ask how the bread becomes the body of Christ, and the wine and the water become the blood of Christ. I shall tell you. The Holy Spirit comes upon them, and achieves things which surpass every word and thought … Let it be enough for you to understand that this takes place by the Holy Spirit” Now my res