70 times 7 = God only forgives up to 490 times?
- Thread starter Shyness
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Matthew 18:21-22 in the new King James version of the Bible reads: Then Peter came to Him and said, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
I Multiplied 70X7 And It Is 490. I Thought If God Commanded Us To Forgive 70X7 Then God Does The Same For Me.
I Multiplied 70X7 And It Is 490. I Thought If God Commanded Us To Forgive 70X7 Then God Does The Same For Me.
If you read all of Matthew you get the impression that Jesus was saying to forgive them beyond your wildest dreams. God was not saying, "yah after this exact number you should forget them they are lost."
No what God is saying is that our human minds think 7 is a pretty decent amount of charitable forgiveness. But to really be Christlike and a true brother we must forgive beyond what we consider charity. We must go above and beyond what we consider good.
When you think about it, if God only forgave you 490 times, I think the same week I accepted Jesus as my savior I would be damned to hell again. This is why I am glad of his eternal grace and love. Something I still don't understand.
And I don't believe we are saved and forgiven through works. I believe we are saved and forgiven through the Son of God, Jesus. The 490 times I forgive someone doesn't even compare to that cross...
No what God is saying is that our human minds think 7 is a pretty decent amount of charitable forgiveness. But to really be Christlike and a true brother we must forgive beyond what we consider charity. We must go above and beyond what we consider good.
When you think about it, if God only forgave you 490 times, I think the same week I accepted Jesus as my savior I would be damned to hell again. This is why I am glad of his eternal grace and love. Something I still don't understand.
And I don't believe we are saved and forgiven through works. I believe we are saved and forgiven through the Son of God, Jesus. The 490 times I forgive someone doesn't even compare to that cross...
L
Interesting that Jesus chose that number.
Daniel 9:24 KJV
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
This verse also has 70 x 7
Daniel 9:24 KJV
(24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
This verse also has 70 x 7
Maybe it is just me, but you guys are looking at it the wrong way. The whole book of Matthew is a story. Multiple times Jesus tells us how to take his word... The 490 means nothing... It is the principal behind what Jesus said. He could have said 7x72. It still means the same thing...
Matthew 18: 21-35
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."
When I read this; the meaning I take is... As Christian we have been saved by Christ, we have been shown more forgiveness then all of humanity combined. So Jesus tells Peter the parable of man who owed the king a great wealth. The king saw how heart broken the man was and forgave him of his debt. The man then went home and strangled his servant for a debt that was minuscule in comparison to what he owed. The king heard about this and took the same attitude towards the man that the man had towards his servant...
So all God is saying is be kind and show each other the mercy you have been shown. This is not some voodoo number. It was just a way for Jesus to show Peter, that he must forgive because he is forgiven. And he must show the same mercy he has been shown.
Edit: The king= God The man= Us The servant = those who we don't forgive
Also don't take a verse out of context and only look at it, when you do that you get weird meanings... Instead look at the whole paragraph, chapter, and even book... The meaning isn't hidden...
Matthew 18: 21-35
The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses."
When I read this; the meaning I take is... As Christian we have been saved by Christ, we have been shown more forgiveness then all of humanity combined. So Jesus tells Peter the parable of man who owed the king a great wealth. The king saw how heart broken the man was and forgave him of his debt. The man then went home and strangled his servant for a debt that was minuscule in comparison to what he owed. The king heard about this and took the same attitude towards the man that the man had towards his servant...
So all God is saying is be kind and show each other the mercy you have been shown. This is not some voodoo number. It was just a way for Jesus to show Peter, that he must forgive because he is forgiven. And he must show the same mercy he has been shown.
Edit: The king= God The man= Us The servant = those who we don't forgive
Also don't take a verse out of context and only look at it, when you do that you get weird meanings... Instead look at the whole paragraph, chapter, and even book... The meaning isn't hidden...
Last edited:
past 5 minutes,
Shyness, There is only 1 unforgivable sin, blaspheme against the spirit (if my memory serves me correctly).
Man I have done some wicked things, I should be in jail for life for the things I have done, and this isn't me making it sound dramatic or overplaying my sins. I really should be thrown in the slammer if anyone knew my sins... And if the bible says it forgives me... And Jesus is willing to die for my sorry excuse for a human being, then mate you don't need to be harsh on yourself. Everyone sins, and we sin even when we know the repercussion... This is why the old law is gone and the Cross is here... God understands our hearts and short comings.
I will try to find the verse and message you it later but I believe it is in the book of Mark.
"With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
You are not unforgiven unless you throw God into the gutter.
Shyness, There is only 1 unforgivable sin, blaspheme against the spirit (if my memory serves me correctly).
Man I have done some wicked things, I should be in jail for life for the things I have done, and this isn't me making it sound dramatic or overplaying my sins. I really should be thrown in the slammer if anyone knew my sins... And if the bible says it forgives me... And Jesus is willing to die for my sorry excuse for a human being, then mate you don't need to be harsh on yourself. Everyone sins, and we sin even when we know the repercussion... This is why the old law is gone and the Cross is here... God understands our hearts and short comings.
I will try to find the verse and message you it later but I believe it is in the book of Mark.
"With man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
You are not unforgiven unless you throw God into the gutter.
We do not know when a brother will STOP sinning against us. In another passage it says if a brother sins against you and HE REPENT, thos shalt forgive him, and onother says if he sins against you, you should go see him and tell him about the pain, then if he listen not you should take two or three witnesses, and if he does not stop you should get him in fromt of the whole church, and if he does not stop, he should not be considered a brother, but a heathen....
So what should we do? I guess it depends on the SPIRITUAL status if the one that needs to forgive.... Jesus also forgave ONCE... He said to the woman about to be stoned.... I also do not jusdge you, but GOD AND SIN NO MORE.... She also had to stop... And to the man with the withered hand... God and sin no more lest WORSE things become you.... Right through the Bible we learn NOT TO SIN, and to STOP SINNING... But do we? NOPE, then how can we NOT FORGIVE?
But what if I do STOP! Should I then forgive those keeps on sinning? Would God? God does not sin, why should he forgive more than ONCE? IF God knows you are not going to stop, why should HE FORGIVE? If God gave you the choice.... SIN ALL YOU WANT, AND THEN COME TO ME AND I WILL FORGIVE IF YOU STOP, OR, SIN ALL YOU WANT, THEN COME TO ME AND SIN SOME MORE, IT REALLY DOES NOT MATTER, I WILL FORGIVE.... Which one would you choose?
These are not an obtion.... GOD DEMANDS REPENTANCE.... TURNING AWAY FROM SIN.... Completely or not at all! It is only YOUR choice to in or not to sin... Sin does not happen automatically, it happens purposefully and willingly. Nobody sin unwillingly, you sin because you want too! Sin and how it happens are detailed in the Scripture...
It comes from WITHIN, and if the WITHIN is not changed it cannot STOP! Nothing that comes from OUTSIDE fouls up the man, it is the INSIDE that has to change... THE HEART has to change...Mark 7:21... For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Oh I can pretend to be mae new and have a repenting heart... but... I ask myself this.... Cobus compare yourself to ANY person that God witnessed with as one of HIS OWN... who do you measure up too? Even the simple Philip, deacon and evangelist, was special. Is Cobus special? NOPE! As useless as the next Christian. Oh wih a lot of explanation why God is not so active in Cobus as Philip, but if tht is true, I should throw the WHOLE BIBLE in the fire and forget about God. Or I should know this is TRUE.... Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
What is a sinner? Who is these sinners that God does not hear... If I sin and ask God for forgiveness, DOES HE HEAR? If I am sinner, can I pray for another sinner? When will God say I am not a sinner, and decide to listen to my prayer, and say YES, OK COBUS, I WILL DO WHAT YOU ASK?
When will God say to His Son.... Here is Cobus, MY SON, in whom I am well pleased? Will He ever say that? Oh we like to play Gospel don't we. And we like to be the Christian all say WOW, too do we not? Man we are sick in the heart, and we NEED GOD TO HEAL US... Lord take this stony heart, and Give me YOURS AMEN!
So what should we do? I guess it depends on the SPIRITUAL status if the one that needs to forgive.... Jesus also forgave ONCE... He said to the woman about to be stoned.... I also do not jusdge you, but GOD AND SIN NO MORE.... She also had to stop... And to the man with the withered hand... God and sin no more lest WORSE things become you.... Right through the Bible we learn NOT TO SIN, and to STOP SINNING... But do we? NOPE, then how can we NOT FORGIVE?
But what if I do STOP! Should I then forgive those keeps on sinning? Would God? God does not sin, why should he forgive more than ONCE? IF God knows you are not going to stop, why should HE FORGIVE? If God gave you the choice.... SIN ALL YOU WANT, AND THEN COME TO ME AND I WILL FORGIVE IF YOU STOP, OR, SIN ALL YOU WANT, THEN COME TO ME AND SIN SOME MORE, IT REALLY DOES NOT MATTER, I WILL FORGIVE.... Which one would you choose?
These are not an obtion.... GOD DEMANDS REPENTANCE.... TURNING AWAY FROM SIN.... Completely or not at all! It is only YOUR choice to in or not to sin... Sin does not happen automatically, it happens purposefully and willingly. Nobody sin unwillingly, you sin because you want too! Sin and how it happens are detailed in the Scripture...
It comes from WITHIN, and if the WITHIN is not changed it cannot STOP! Nothing that comes from OUTSIDE fouls up the man, it is the INSIDE that has to change... THE HEART has to change...Mark 7:21... For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Oh I can pretend to be mae new and have a repenting heart... but... I ask myself this.... Cobus compare yourself to ANY person that God witnessed with as one of HIS OWN... who do you measure up too? Even the simple Philip, deacon and evangelist, was special. Is Cobus special? NOPE! As useless as the next Christian. Oh wih a lot of explanation why God is not so active in Cobus as Philip, but if tht is true, I should throw the WHOLE BIBLE in the fire and forget about God. Or I should know this is TRUE.... Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
What is a sinner? Who is these sinners that God does not hear... If I sin and ask God for forgiveness, DOES HE HEAR? If I am sinner, can I pray for another sinner? When will God say I am not a sinner, and decide to listen to my prayer, and say YES, OK COBUS, I WILL DO WHAT YOU ASK?
When will God say to His Son.... Here is Cobus, MY SON, in whom I am well pleased? Will He ever say that? Oh we like to play Gospel don't we. And we like to be the Christian all say WOW, too do we not? Man we are sick in the heart, and we NEED GOD TO HEAL US... Lord take this stony heart, and Give me YOURS AMEN!
Seven is used frequently in the Scriptures to signify completeness.
Seventy-seven, a repetition of seven in a number, was equivalent to saying “indefinitely” or “without limit.” Jesus counsels Christians to forgive their brothers to that extent.
The accounts of God’s forgiveness saturate the record in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Jesus speaks of it often, showing that he is in harmony with Jehovah’s mind on the subject. Jesus’ thinking comes from Jehovah, he reflects Jehovah, he is the exact representation of Jehovah’s very being; to see him is to see Jehovah.-John 12:45-50; 14:9; Hebrews 1:3.
That Jehovah forgives in a large way is indicated in one of Jesus’ illustrations, that of a king who forgave a slave a debt of 10,000 talents (about $33,000,000, U.S.). But when that slave would not forgive a fellow slave a debt of a hundred denarii (some $60, U.S.), the king was furious. “‘Wicked slave, I canceled all that debt for you, when you entreated me. Ought you not, in turn, to have had mercy on your fellow slave, as I also had mercy on you?’ With that his master, provoked to wrath, delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay back all that was owing.” Jesus then made the application: “In like manner my heavenly Father will also deal with you if you do not forgive each one his brother from your hearts.”—Matthew 18:23-35.
Just prior to Jesus’ giving the above illustration, Peter came up to Jesus and asked: “Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” Peter thought he was being very generous. Though the scribes and the Pharisees set a limit on forgiveness, Jesus said to Peter: “I say to you, not, Up to seven times, but, Up to seventy-seven times.” (Matthew 18:21, 22) Seven times would hardly suffice for one day, as Jesus said: “Pay attention to yourselves. If your brother commits a sin give him a rebuke, and if he repents forgive him. Even if he sins seven times a day against you and he comes back to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” (Luke 17:3, 4) When Jehovah forgives, he does not keep count-happily for us.
Seventy-seven, a repetition of seven in a number, was equivalent to saying “indefinitely” or “without limit.” Jesus counsels Christians to forgive their brothers to that extent.
The accounts of God’s forgiveness saturate the record in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Jesus speaks of it often, showing that he is in harmony with Jehovah’s mind on the subject. Jesus’ thinking comes from Jehovah, he reflects Jehovah, he is the exact representation of Jehovah’s very being; to see him is to see Jehovah.-John 12:45-50; 14:9; Hebrews 1:3.
That Jehovah forgives in a large way is indicated in one of Jesus’ illustrations, that of a king who forgave a slave a debt of 10,000 talents (about $33,000,000, U.S.). But when that slave would not forgive a fellow slave a debt of a hundred denarii (some $60, U.S.), the king was furious. “‘Wicked slave, I canceled all that debt for you, when you entreated me. Ought you not, in turn, to have had mercy on your fellow slave, as I also had mercy on you?’ With that his master, provoked to wrath, delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay back all that was owing.” Jesus then made the application: “In like manner my heavenly Father will also deal with you if you do not forgive each one his brother from your hearts.”—Matthew 18:23-35.
Just prior to Jesus’ giving the above illustration, Peter came up to Jesus and asked: “Lord, how many times is my brother to sin against me and am I to forgive him? Up to seven times?” Peter thought he was being very generous. Though the scribes and the Pharisees set a limit on forgiveness, Jesus said to Peter: “I say to you, not, Up to seven times, but, Up to seventy-seven times.” (Matthew 18:21, 22) Seven times would hardly suffice for one day, as Jesus said: “Pay attention to yourselves. If your brother commits a sin give him a rebuke, and if he repents forgive him. Even if he sins seven times a day against you and he comes back to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” (Luke 17:3, 4) When Jehovah forgives, he does not keep count-happily for us.
