Ecumenism, Roman Catholicism & The Charismatic Movement

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#1
OPEN DISCUSSION - derailing not a prob:rolleyes:background on the reason for this thread:


Larry Christenson, a Lutheran theologian based in San Pedro, California, did much in the 1960s and 1970s to interpret the charismatic movement for Lutherans. A very large annual conference was held in Minneapolis during those years. Charismatic Lutheran congregations in Minnesota became especially large and influential; especially "Hosanna!" in Lakeville, and North Heights in St. Paul.[citation needed] The next generation of Lutheran charismatics cluster around the Alliance of Renewal Churches.[citation needed] There is currently considerable charismatic activity among young Lutheran leaders in California centered around an annual gathering at Robinwood Church in Huntington Beach.

Charismatic Lutherans LCMS
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/73510-charismatic-lutherans-lcms.html < click
...

The Charismatic Movement
AN HISTORICAL AND THEOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE
by Larry Christenson
PART ONE: Considering A Remarkable Renewal
http://www.lutheranrenewal.org/The_Charismatic_Movement2.pdf < click

...

Lutheran Renewal Leader ‘Ashamed’ Over ELCA Vote

5:50PM EDT 8/26/2009
ADRIENNE S. GAINES

A prominent Lutheran renewal leader said his denomination's vote on Friday to allow noncelibate homosexuals to serve as clergy has left him feeling ashamed but he has no plans to leave the church.

Larry Christenson (pictured), former head of International Lutheran Renewal (ILR), said the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America's (ELCA) affirmation of homosexual ministers left him with "a feeling of shame that was so palpable I could have cut it with a knife."
Lutheran Renewal Leader ‘Ashamed’ Over ELCA Vote

....

comments for clarification:

Larry Christenson of ELCA is not part of, nor affiliated with LCMS - LCMS (The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod) is not in fellowship with ELCA.

there may be a few LCMS involved in the charismatic movement, though i'm unable to see how it would go undetected by LCMS for long.

hopefully the title of background thread: Charismatic Lutherans LCMS will not have been too misleading for some.

see posts 39-43 (SarahM777 ) for clarification on LCMS & the Charismatic Movement.

THE LUTHERAN CHURCH
AND THE
CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT
GUIDELINES FOR
CONGREGATIONS AND PASTORS

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/73510-charismatic-lutherans-lcms-2.html < click

...

so, here we go:

Ecumenism, Roman Catholicism & The Charismatic Movement.

featuring Larry Christenson; David du Plessis; Ralph Martin and Stephen Clark; Derek Prince; Word of God (community); The Ft. Lauderdale Elders/Five; Roman Catholicism & Vatican II; The Shepherding Movement; The Charismatic [Renewals] Movement - and more.....

cont....
 
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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,957
113
#2
That is shocking about that vote. Maybe the Canadian ELCIC does not have to abide by this decision? They might as well be the United Church. Not sure who this Larry Christenson is either. Very bad choice.

I can see why you posted this!
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
#3
That is shocking about that vote. Maybe the Canadian ELCIC does not have to abide by this decision? They might as well be the United Church. Not sure who this Larry Christenson is either. Very bad choice.

I can see why you posted this!
Angela is the ELCIC the Canadian version of the US ELCA?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#4
[h=2]ecu·me·nism[/h] noun \e-ˈkyü-mə-ˌni-zəm, i- also ˈe-kyə- or ˌe-kyə-ˈme-\


[h=2]Definition of ECUMENISM[/h] : ecumenical principles and practices especially as shown among religious groups (as Christian denominations)
ecu·me·nist noun


Movement toward unity or cooperation among the Christian churches. The first major step in the direction of ecumenism was the International Missionary Conference of 1910, a gathering of Protestants. Several Protestant denominations inaugurated a Life and Work Conference (on social and practical problems) in 1925 and a Faith and Order Conference (on church doctrine and governance) in 1927. After World War II the World Council of Churches (WCC) was established; the International Missionary Conference joined it in 1961. The Roman Catholic church also has shown strong interest in improving interchurch relations since the Second Vatican Council (1962–65) and, with the patriarch of Constantinople, has lifted the excommunication of 1054. The Eastern Orthodox church was active in the movement since 1920 and joined the WCC at its inception. The more conservative or fundamentalist Protestant denominations have generally refrained from involvement. Another important factor in 20th-century ecumenism was the creation of united churches that reconcile splintered sects, such as the United Church of Christ (1957) and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (1988).



this is the plan to create a "one world religion"
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#5
background: leaders in the Charismatic Renewal(s) Movement


David du Plessis

[pro-charismatic sources]

They Called Him, "Mr. Pentecost"
Smith Wigglesworth prophesied to David in 1936 that God would one day use him to bring a renewed understanding of the baptism in the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts to the old-line denominations and to the Roman Catholic Church. The Lord fulfilled this prophetic word beginning in the 1950s, opening doors for David to minister in these circles, thus birthing a new move of God. That move was called the Charismatic Renewal. Members of the old-line denominational churches and the Roman Catholic Church came to so love and appreciate Du Plessis for ministering to them, that they gave him the affectionate title of "Mr. Pentecost."

Christ the Baptizer - Beginning of David's message on the power of the baptism in the Holy Spirit with the evidence of tongues.

This recording is a historical treasure. In Part I, David Du Plessis tells in detail how he presented his message about the power of the Holy Spirit to world Church leaders and to Pope John's personal representative, which sowed the seeds for the Charismatic Movement. He presented his message in a loving manner that enabled otherwise contentious churchmen to open their hearts to a message from someone outside of their own branch of Christianity.
MMCI | Mel Montgomery Communications International

...

David du Plessis: Mr. Pentecost
David du Plessis: Mr. Pentecost < click

...

Reflections of a Pentecostal at the End of the Millennium: An Editorial Essay
William W. Menzies

...However, by 1960, pastors and lay people were reporting such experiences in considerable numbers--so much so that in the decade that followed most of the great Christian Protestant church bodies adopted position papers that allowed "Spirit-filled" members and leaders to stay within the parent denomination, with cautions, to be sure. This became known as the Charismatic movement. The Charismatic movement began as a penetration of the more traditional (and generally less-evangelical) Protestant denominations with phenomena and emphases previously limited to the Pentecostal churches. By 1967, this Charismatic renewal reached into the Roman Catholic Church, and since that time has had a growth more
phenomenal than the movement within Protestant mainline churches. This break-out of Pentecostal-like phenomena into the larger church world has generally been titled the "Second Wave."

More reluctant than the more liberal Protestant bodies and the Roman Catholic Church to make room for apostolic-like manifestations, nonetheless Evangelical Christianity by 1985 had its own Charismatic renewal. Speaking in tongues, prayer for the sick, and an openness to various manifestations of the Spirit finally were becoming acceptable, at least among some Evangelical groups. This is the so-called "Third Wave," according to Peter Wagner.2

page 3 ^

From the beginning, especially from the Los Angeles revival of 1906-9, commonly called the "Azusa Street Revival," missionary endeavor had a very high priority.4 After all, if we were at the end of a dying age, and Jesus would soon reappear, His servants should be busy about the Master’s business, rescuing the lost. The meaning of Pentecost was understood to be an empowering for Christian witness to the ends of the earth (Acts 1:8). The Pentecostal gift was understood to be integral to the mission task.

The Charismatic movement developed along somewhat different lines. Pentecostals had been rejected and consequently had to form their own associations and networks. They started "fresh." When believers in the mainline churches began to experience gifts of the Spirit, many of them saw their role as instruments of renewal within their own denomination, or within the local church of which they were a part. Many of these people who had come alive spiritually felt that they had a mission to their friends within that communion. They yearned to share with colleagues the availability of the apostolic gifts.
In this role, they looked inward rather than outward, recognizing those Christians with whom they lived to be in need of a spiritual refreshing.

page 4 ^

3.2 The Place of Theology

There are three component issues here for Pentecostals, as well as many Charismatics. It is interesting to note that Catholic Pentecostals have attended perhaps more faithfully to the task of articulating theology for the renewal than have either Pentecostals or other Charismatics. Note the bibliographical entries flowing from Catholic sources.5

The three issues are:
a) focus on experience, b) concerns about ecumenism, and c) assumptions about ethics.

page 5 ^

3.2.2 Ambivalence regarding Ecumenism

Growing for at least two generations in virtual isolation from interaction with other Christian traditions, suddenly in the mid-1940's, Pentecostals were for the first time accepted within Evangelical circles, at first with great caution, and more recently with full-acceptance. Early Pentecostals often feared association with other believers, wary lest such association would blur uniqueness. Later, upon being accepted in the Evangelical ranks, Pentecostals seemed to go overboard to gain approval among peers. In the 1950's and 1960's, this took the form of alignment with Fundamentalists against liberal Christianity, such as were found in the World Council of Churches. The fortunes of David duPlessis are illustrative of this capturing of Pentecostals by conservative Evangelicals.6

DuPlessis was disfellowshipped by the Assemblies of God for his association with World Council of Churches leaders, who had invited him to address them. This was an "embarrassment" to Evangelicals, who put pressure on the Assemblies
of God to disconnect totally from the WCC. DuPlessis pleaded with his Assemblies of God people that many leaders within the WCC were receiving the Pentecostal experience--but he noted that this was not occurring among the Evangelical leaders with whom the Pentecostals had become so cozy.7

Later, when the "Second Wave" of Charismatic renewal was fully-formed, it became apparent that over-identification of
Pentecostals with conservative Evangelicals was somehow out of tune with what the Holy Spirit seemed to be doing. Quietly, duPlessis was reinstated in the Assemblies of God before he died. There continues to be ambivalence within the Pentecostal movement about the theological guidelines that should shape ecumenical relationships.

page 6 ^
http://www.apts.edu/aeimages/File/AJPS_PDF/98-1-menziesw.pdf < click

...

David Johannes du Plessis (7 February 1905 – 2 February 1987) was a South African-born Pentecostal minister. He is considered one of the main founders of the charismatic movement, in which the Pentecostal experience of baptism with the Holy Spirit spread to non-Pentecostal churches worldwide.

Originally shunning other movements, he became an active believer in ecumenism, beginning his efforts in the 1950s to share the Pentecostal experience with Christians in the historic denominations, chiefly Roman Catholicism. His main gateway into ecumenism was through his friendship with John McKay, then President of Princeton Seminary, New Jersey. McKay invited Du Plessis to address the International Missionary Council in Willingen, West Germany, in 1952. There he earned the nickname "Mr Pentecost".

He was a member of staff and Pentecostal "observer" at the World Council of Churches in 1954 and 1961, respectively, and was invited to serve as Pentecostal representative at the Second Vatican Council.

Du Plessis entitled his autobiography The Spirit Bade Me Go, as he believed God had commanded him to take the Pentecostal message to other denominations, and in particular the World Council of Churches. Recounting a meeting with 24 ecumenical leaders in Connecticut, Du Plessis wrote:

I could remember days when I had wished I could have set my eyes upon such men to denounce their theology and pray the judgment of God upon them for what I considered their heresies and false doctrines. ... After a few introductory words I suddenly felt a warm glow come over me. I knew this was the Holy Spirit taking over, but what was He doing to me? Instead of the old harsh spirit of criticism and condemnation in my heart, I now felt such love and compassion for these ecclesiastical leaders that I would rather have died for them than pass sentence upon them.

He remembered Smith Wigglesworth prophesying over him, that God would out pour his Spirit upon the churches and he would be greatly involved in it.
David du Plessis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



David du Plessis
cont....
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,957
113
#6
Angela is the ELCIC the Canadian version of the US ELCA?
Yes it is. And some of them are very conservative, the ones I work with. They certainly are not charismatic or into one world church!
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#7
David du Plessis cont....


Charisma with Latter Rain
In May 1960, Episcopalian minister Dennis Bennett told his Van Nuys, California parishioners that he had begun speaking in tongues after baptism in the Holy Spirit. Many mark this as the beginning of the present-day Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. The Pentecostal /Latter Rain movements have never ceased, rather, merely changed faces. According to some authors the reporting and proselytizing for the new movement within the American church and worldwide, was handled personally by David du Plessis of AOG. However, Harald Bredesen helped publish Dennis Bennett’s and du Plessis’ Trinity newsletter.

Jamie Buckingham, through the magazine Logos Journal introduced many of the charismatic leaders to a wider audience. Leaders such as: “Dennis Bennett, Bob Mumford, Harold Hill, Merlin Carothers, Iverna Tompkins and Judson Cornwall, to name a few… He edited the Logos Journal for a time and wrote 14 books for the company, including the best-sellers Shout it From the Housetops (1972), written with CBN founder Pat Robertson, and Daughter of Destiny (1976), the story of Kathryn Kuhlman. Jamie also served on the original board of directors for Logos, alongside such charismatic leaders as David du Plessis, Bob Slosser and Gen. Ralph Haines.” 6 Buckingham, along with many others, fully supported and endorsed Kathryn Kuhlman, who committed adultery and whose ministry was to unite denominations including Protestant with Catholic.7

The following is a brief excerpt from Bredesen's September 29, 1988 letter to the Pope:



Your Holiness and dear Pope John Paul II,

Too many Protestant Evangelicals have long since made up their minds about Roman Catholicism...They fail to notice the mighty Gospel wind that also moves with such force [in Roman Catholicism)....

My heart is moved by a dream, Your Holiness. It is this: that what has already been discovered by men such as David and Justus DuPlessis, Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Richard Neuhaus... regarding the riches and depth of Catholic piety, must become common knowledge among Evangelical Protestants everywhere....

What we envision [is]...a spiritual peace treaty, signed before the eyes of the world [by]...Evangelical Protestants and Catholics joining together to single out the Pope of Rome as the man most worthy of receiving the Prince of Peace Prize....

Using as a staging ground the week-long prince of peace celebration [in Rome in 1990], we believe it possible to give one of the most dramatic demonstrations of Christian oneness since the days of the early church....It could and should mark the beginning of a new spirit of cooperation in evangelistic efforts as we anticipate together the year 2000...."
http://www.reachingcatholics.org/roots.html
Charisma With Latter Rain
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#8
Yes it is. And some of them are very conservative, the ones I work with. They certainly are not charismatic or into one world church!
Then wouldn't they be more like LCMS rather than ELCA?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,957
113
#9
Then wouldn't they be more like LCMS rather than ELCA?
Yes, but we have LCMS, too! I think this might be a cultural thing. Our left is far to the left of you, our right is more towards the center. It only stands to reason that church follows that. LCMS is definite very conservative in Canada. But we have a denomination that you do not have in the US. It is called the "United Church of Canada". It was the union of Presbyterians, Congregationalists and Methodists a long time ago.

So imagine taking a bunch of Calvinists and making them attend church with Arminians. You end up having to compromise and having no doctrine. About 20-30 years ago, there was a huge split in the church between the conservatives and the liberals - terrible infighting. The Liberals won and the conservatives left the church.

So basically, rather than Lutherans having two radically different branches, many liberals in other churches went to the United, (as I like to say, apostate) Church. I have quite a few high school friends who still go to that church, and I even attended a few years myself, although I certainly learned nothing of the Bible or God.

Mind you, I am only guessing based on what I have seen. I just know it is almost impossible to preach the gospel to someone from the United Church, whereas all the Lutherans I know (both ELCIC and LCMS) are "conservative".

Maybe there are some Canadian ELCIC's who would like to comment on this thread? I'm just talking as an outsider.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#10
Yes, but we have LCMS, too! I think this might be a cultural thing. Our left is far to the left of you, our right is more towards the center. It only stands to reason that church follows that. LCMS is definite very conservative in Canada. But we have a denomination that you do not have in the US. It is called the "United Church of Canada". It was the union of Presbyterians, Congregationalists and Methodists a long time ago.

So imagine taking a bunch of Calvinists and making them attend church with Arminians. You end up having to compromise and having no doctrine. About 20-30 years ago, there was a huge split in the church between the conservatives and the liberals - terrible infighting. The Liberals won and the conservatives left the church.

So basically, rather than Lutherans having two radically different branches, many liberals in other churches went to the United, (as I like to say, apostate) Church. I have quite a few high school friends who still go to that church, and I even attended a few years myself, although I certainly learned nothing of the Bible or God.

Mind you, I am only guessing based on what I have seen. I just know it is almost impossible to preach the gospel to someone from the United Church, whereas all the Lutherans I know (both ELCIC and LCMS) are "conservative".

Maybe there are some Canadian ELCIC's who would like to comment on this thread? I'm just talking as an outsider.
I know nothing of the specific denomination you are talking of, but I see what you say in general to be true.

I think in modern times the "doctrine" is shaped by what people want as oppesed to truth.

Ive heard about big churches being built and them senind people ddor to door taking a survey of "what do you like at a church serivce?" And them the "doctrine" is shaped by the survey responses.

TERRIBLE

2 Timothy 4:3-4, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts they will heap to themselves teachers, who will tickle their ears. And they will turn away their ears from the truth, and will be turned to
fables."
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#11
The Fort Lauderdale Five


Shepherding Movement
The Shepherding Movement (sometimes called the "Discipleship Movement") was an influential and controversial movement within some British and American charismatic churches, emerging in the 1970s and early 1980s. The doctrine of the movement emphasized the "one another" passages of the New Testament, and the mentoring relationship described in 2 Timothy.

"The heat of the controversy can be captured by reading an open letter, dated June 27, 1975, from Pat Robertson to Bob Mumford. Robertson said that in a recent visit to Louisville, Kentucky, he found cultish language like"submission" rather than churches, "shepherds" not pastors, and "relationships" but not Jesus. Robertson traveled to ORU and found a twenty-year-old "shepherd" who drew tithes from fellow students as part of their submission. Robertson, drawing from Juan Carlos Ortiz's Call to Discipleship, charged the leaders with placing personal revelations (rhema) on par with Scripture. He quoted a devotee as saying, "If God Almighty spoke to me, and I knew for a certainty that it was God speaking, and if my shepherd told me to do the opposite, I would obey my shepherd."[8]
Shepherding Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

...

Charismatic Captivation
The Real Truth About Authoritarian Abuse and Psychological Enslavement Transpiring In Many Pentecostal and Neo-Pentecostal Churches.

Dr. Steven Lambert

The Genesis of the Charismatic Movement

Evolving essentially, though unofficially, and to a large extent unintentionally, out of the Pentecostal Movement of the earlier part of this century, the Charismatic Movement had its inception in 1960 with a series of events involving Dennis Bennett, an Episcopalian rector, who along with a significant number of other Episcopalians, received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. The Movement continued to develop and take shape as a similar but yet distinct and somewhat diverse Movement from its precursor throughout the decade of the 1960s.

The "Fab Five" (aka, "The Fort Lauderdale Five") alliance consisted of Derek Prince, Bob Mumford, Charles Simpson, Don Basham, and Ern Baxter. A less known sixth associate was John Poole. Together these individuals formed the organization that would be "the center of one of the most violent controversies (i.e., the Discipleship/Shepherding controversy) in Protestant charismatic history,"1 Christian Growth Ministries (CGM), headquartered in Ft. Lauderdale, Florida.
Charismatic Captivation: Chapter Two | Charismatic Captivation < click

...

The Charismatic Movement
By: Derek Owers (Guest Author)

(Note: The author is a former charismatic and one of his aims is to oppose this deceptive movement).

Introduction
In this article I aim to ‘catch up’ with the Charismatic Movement (CM). (Please keep in mind that I do not seek to deride those caught up in this movement; rather I wish to expose the patently false and absurd teaching. Whilst the leaders and adherents might be sincere and well-intentioned, the sad fact is that those who become ensnared in the CM are not on the road to heaven, but the wide road that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13). As such, they need our exhortations to ‘come out’, and prayers that they will be given repentance to acknowledging of the truth (2Tim.2:25).

We aim to follow two threads: 1. The Roman Catholic (RC) roots, structure, doctrine and drive of the movement and 2. The mindless, ‘we trust our leaders’ stance of adherents; combined with the unbiblical and dictatorial, ‘apostolic ministry’ of its leaders.

First, it is necessary to trace the origins and development of the movement:

The CM evolved from the Pentecostal Movement, which itself grew out of the Holiness Movement in the United States. The Holiness Movement, in turn, originated with John Wesley. (1) Adherents of the Holiness Movement accepted Wesley’s teaching of a ‘second blessing’ of complete sanctification or ‘Christian perfection’. In some circles there was a third, fourth, and fifth and even sixth ‘blessing’. (2)

With hindsight, it is not difficult to understand how teaching a second work of grace laid the foundations for the ‘baptism in the Holy Spirit’ as Pentecostals and Charismatics now understand it, and that is precisely what happened

...

We must now move forward in time to the 1960’s, passing over the period 1947-52, which has been termed the Latter Rain Movement or the Mid-Twentieth Century Evangelical Awakening. (12) Due to the work of men such as Smith Wigglesworth, William Branham, David du Plessis, Cecil Cousen, Oral Roberts, TL Osborn, Dennis Bennett, David Watson, Donald Gee, Michael Harper, etc. the Pentecostal movement had become established and even respectable

...

Two leading figures in the Catholic Renewal Movement are Ralph Martin and Stephen Clark. (16) These friends and colleagues were ‘baptised in the Spirit’ in the Spring of 1967. Ralph Martin became the first director of the International Communications Office of the Catholic Renewal.

...

In 1974 Martin and Clark teamed up with the ‘Fort Lauderdale Five’ (Bob Mumford, Charles Simpson, Derek Prince, Don Basham & Ern Baxter – former secretary to William Branham), who were the founders of the Shepherding Movement, which later became known as the Charismatic Movement (yes, friends, the Shepherding came first!). They were joined by John Poole, another latter Rain adherent. Together these men established a group for ecumenical renewal.

A council was elected whose existence was kept secret as it was not acceptable at the time for Protestants to ‘labour in the Gospel’ with Catholics. For the fledgling Shepherding Movement the money and power of the Vatican were attractive: for Martin and Clark it was a golden opportunity to begin implementing the ecumenical and Charismatic aspirations of Vatican II. (17)

...

These men (particularly Ern Baxter) were greatly influenced by William Branham and, The New Order of the Latter Rain (to give its official title). Branham taught that denominations – including Pentecostals & Catholics – were ‘Jezebel’, and that true believer had to come out and separate’.

(Branham “prophesised that by 1977 all denominations would be consumed by the World Council of Churches under the control of the Roman Catholics, that the Rapture would take place, and the world would be destroyed. He died in 1965, but many of his followers expected him to be to be resurrected, some believing him to be God, others believing him to be virgin-born” (18) They promoted his teachings that the ‘True Church’ was not to be found in any denomination. The Vatican teaches the same message. The ‘Charismata’ were to be the ‘conduit’ to unite the ‘True Church’.)
Christian Doctrine from Bible Theology Ministries Article 00171 The Charismatic Movement < click



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