People say I'm crazy
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Man's will is not God's, but the devil's. Even Christ prayed to the Father (v42) "nevertheless not My will, but Yours be done." Peter's plea to Christ, while it may have been genuine, was still out of the heart of a sinner. God the Father is sovereign, not man.
This is why I fear for those who play games with the Holy Spirit, trying to use Him for their own benefit. You mean there are people who try to live and make money off the Holy Spirit? Kathryn Kuhlman, Benny Hinn, Todd Bentely... But God is omniscient and He proclaimed that many will say, "we did this, we did that, we had your Spirit" and He has already told us His response. Some assurance for those of us who hear "Run" when we see some of this sensationalized stuff.
There is so much deception, both in us and outside of us. Judas deceived himself which lead to greater deception
Luke 22:3-6,
3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve.
4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them.
5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money.
6 So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude.
This is why I fear for those who play games with the Holy Spirit, trying to use Him for their own benefit. You mean there are people who try to live and make money off the Holy Spirit? Kathryn Kuhlman, Benny Hinn, Todd Bentely... But God is omniscient and He proclaimed that many will say, "we did this, we did that, we had your Spirit" and He has already told us His response. Some assurance for those of us who hear "Run" when we see some of this sensationalized stuff.
There is so much deception, both in us and outside of us. Judas deceived himself which lead to greater deception
Luke 22:3-6,
3 Then Satan entered Judas, surnamed Iscariot, who was numbered among the twelve.
4 So he went his way and conferred with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray Him to them.
5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money.
6 So he promised and sought opportunity to betray Him to them in the absence of the multitude.
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Galatians 6:7, "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap."
^ that should be sobering. Being in the presence of the Living God should bring trembling. We're called to worship on our knees, prostrate, humbled. Our flesh continues to try and exalt itself, even with God's spirit in us. Say it doesn't? Benny Hinn, divorce. Kathryn Kuhlman, divorce. Todd Bentley, divorce. For those who don't know Bentley was a protege of Bill Johnson out of Bethel.
On more than one occasion in fifteen years, in some of my deepest moments of prayer, I have felt my flesh concentrate into a force of energy as it makes it's way to my right middle finger and I can literally feel my flesh sticking the middle finger up at God. Why? Because it's end is death, the grave. It resists God. Have no confidence in the flesh, none.
^ that should be sobering. Being in the presence of the Living God should bring trembling. We're called to worship on our knees, prostrate, humbled. Our flesh continues to try and exalt itself, even with God's spirit in us. Say it doesn't? Benny Hinn, divorce. Kathryn Kuhlman, divorce. Todd Bentley, divorce. For those who don't know Bentley was a protege of Bill Johnson out of Bethel.
On more than one occasion in fifteen years, in some of my deepest moments of prayer, I have felt my flesh concentrate into a force of energy as it makes it's way to my right middle finger and I can literally feel my flesh sticking the middle finger up at God. Why? Because it's end is death, the grave. It resists God. Have no confidence in the flesh, none.
A
Okay -- then the source of your and Bill Johnson's theology is the same. I have no problem saying this -- it is demonic. Any teaching that denies Jesus' deity and elevates humans to equality with Jesus Christ is demonic in origin.
You believe the exact same things that Bill Johnson and others in the hyper-charismatic movement teach.
Let your answers above be evident to all in this thread.
Jesus never did anything without the other members of the Trinity. All three Persons work together because they are one God. Jesus' miracles confirmed Jesus' deity.
I suppose you would say that the reason Jesus died on the cross and rose again was so that we could have the same power to do the same things Jesus did, right? Sigh. That is not the gospel.
You believe the exact same things that Bill Johnson and others in the hyper-charismatic movement teach.
Let your answers above be evident to all in this thread.
Jesus never did anything without the other members of the Trinity. All three Persons work together because they are one God. Jesus' miracles confirmed Jesus' deity.
I suppose you would say that the reason Jesus died on the cross and rose again was so that we could have the same power to do the same things Jesus did, right? Sigh. That is not the gospel.
You put words in my mouth. (Your assumption) Jesus says those who do the will of my farther are my brother/ sister/mother.. Are we not heirs to the throne? Where do you get your theology from? I have met this guy and listen to some of his teachings and some of Dan Mohler.
Healing Explosion at a Mall with Pete Cabrera & Trainee (English/Espanol) - YouTube
Healing Explosion at a Mall with Pete Cabrera & Trainee (English/Espanol) - YouTube
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1 John 3:13 Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
Jesus is love and kindness
and the Jews said this to him
the Jews told JEsus: John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil.John 7:20 T Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?
So why did they hate Jesus?
John 7:7 The world, ...me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
Because Jesus told the truth and exposed false doctrines, they hated him.
Jesus is love and kindness
and the Jews said this to him
the Jews told JEsus: John 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil.John 7:20 T Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?
So why did they hate Jesus?
John 7:7 The world, ...me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
Because Jesus told the truth and exposed false doctrines, they hated him.
A
I'm sorry -- I got a little upset because I'm tired of dealing with certain doctrines that are really deceiving many in the church right now.
I can't find out much about Pete Cabrera.
You're right -- you didn't go quite as far as I was suggesting. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. But that is ultimately where the "Jesus is our model/we can do everything He did by receiving the same Spirit as Jesus did" theology goes. It ultimately proclaims a different gospel, puts the focus all on humans, lowers Jesus, and raises humanity to the level of little gods.
We are not on Jesus' level and we never will be. We are still created beings.
I get my theology from reading the Bible and from listening to other Christians.
Thank you for telling me some of the teachers that you listen to. After performing a quick google search, Dan Mohler appears to be connected to Bill Johnson and Bethel church.
At any rate -- the Holy Spirit doesn't draw attention to Himself, nor does He deny Jesus deity. Teachings that claim that Jesus was only human, and that He did everything by the power of the Holy Spirit, so that we can do everything Jesus did.....that does deny the real gospel.
To deny Jesus' deity is to deny Jesus' claims about Himself.
Why do you think that Jesus was just human?
I can't find out much about Pete Cabrera.
You're right -- you didn't go quite as far as I was suggesting. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. But that is ultimately where the "Jesus is our model/we can do everything He did by receiving the same Spirit as Jesus did" theology goes. It ultimately proclaims a different gospel, puts the focus all on humans, lowers Jesus, and raises humanity to the level of little gods.
We are not on Jesus' level and we never will be. We are still created beings.
I get my theology from reading the Bible and from listening to other Christians.
Thank you for telling me some of the teachers that you listen to. After performing a quick google search, Dan Mohler appears to be connected to Bill Johnson and Bethel church.
At any rate -- the Holy Spirit doesn't draw attention to Himself, nor does He deny Jesus deity. Teachings that claim that Jesus was only human, and that He did everything by the power of the Holy Spirit, so that we can do everything Jesus did.....that does deny the real gospel.
To deny Jesus' deity is to deny Jesus' claims about Himself.
Why do you think that Jesus was just human?
Jesus or God in the flesh which ever to your likening.. Said if you love me you will keep my commandments. So how do we show God we love him?? We keep his commandments
Jesus/God said if you believe in me you will do the works I do and greater works.. Also he said if you believe in me you will lay hands on the sick and they will recover , you will cast out devils, speak in new tongues and drink anything poisonous it will not hurt you.. So how do we show God we believe in him.. Wow amazing right so simple. These are your our God words is it not???
I believe he sent himself down just as a man. So mankind wouldn't have any excuses of why we didn't do such and such.. He model a way of life for us because he want us to still subdue the earth which was his plan for us from the beginning. I don't understand why others can't see this.. Did not all the 12 apostles do these thing? All 72 disciples ? The Corinth church? Paul also. Pleas share why they can do it but we can't?? Or do you believe they also was false teachers??
Jesus/God said if you believe in me you will do the works I do and greater works.. Also he said if you believe in me you will lay hands on the sick and they will recover , you will cast out devils, speak in new tongues and drink anything poisonous it will not hurt you.. So how do we show God we believe in him.. Wow amazing right so simple. These are your our God words is it not???
I believe he sent himself down just as a man. So mankind wouldn't have any excuses of why we didn't do such and such.. He model a way of life for us because he want us to still subdue the earth which was his plan for us from the beginning. I don't understand why others can't see this.. Did not all the 12 apostles do these thing? All 72 disciples ? The Corinth church? Paul also. Pleas share why they can do it but we can't?? Or do you believe they also was false teachers??
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You are quoting from Mark 16:17-18, which according to modern Bible scholarship, is probably not even authentic. Mark 16:9-20 is only found in a later manuscripts. We certainly should not base doctrine on just these few verses.
When Jesus told His followers to follow His commandments, He was talking about how we are to love and serve one another. He wasn't talking about Mark 16:9-20.
Even if Mark 16:9-20 is actual Scripture, no one in the early church understood these verses as being tests of whether or not someone is obeys Jesus. No one was asked to drink poison to prove they were believers (in fact, that would be putting God to the test.)
In 1 Corinthians Paul specifically says that not all believers will speak in tongues. I do believe that tongues is one of the biblical spiritual gifts, and I believe that it is still available for believers today. However, I stand with Scripture -- with what Paul said -- the Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts just as He chooses. Not everyone is going to speak in tongues. Paul talked about tongues as being one of the lesser gifts. Therefore, calling speaking in tongues a command of Jesus is wrong. It cannot be used as a litmus test for true believers.
As far as "casting out devils," this cannot be seen as a test for a true Christian either. If it were, it would imply that we were to go out actively looking for demons just so we could cast them out. No. That is putting the focus on the wrong thing.
As far as laying hands on the sick and praying for them -- that is a situation specific thing. If God calls someone to pray for someone, that is one thing. It is another to make an idol out of healing people. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that God will make the person recover. To believe that we can command God to heal someone, and that God has to obey us -- that's making things backwards, and it can cause a lot of harm. Because what happens if someone prays really hard and believes that the person will be healed, but God chooses to take them home to be with Him instead --- then what will the prayers be told? They will be told that it was their fault. They will be told they didn't have enough faith, or that they are not true Christians. So this cannot be used as proof that someone is a Christian.
You see, obeying Jesus is right -- but using these passages from Mark as "proof" is twisting things. Building a whole theology around these verses does a lot of spiritual harm to Christians, and it is putting the focus on the wrong thing. Our focus should be on the real gospel -- on Jesus Christ. Not on the spiritual gifts or any power that is given.
The goal of Jesus' coming here wasn't so that we would walk in power. Rather, Jesus died on the cross for our sins so that we could be reconciled back to God.
The talk about subduing the earth is part of dominionism theology. That is part of another gospel, and it puts emphasis on humans and power. It's related to the Latter Rain/Manifest Sons of God doctrine. Our purpose on earth isn't to take dominion over the earth. It is to serve and worship God and to glorify Him.
Paul preached Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The apostles and those in the early church did do signs and wonders, under the power of the Holy Spirit. However, their primary aim was to preach Jesus Christ.
I never said that we can't be empowered by the Holy Spirit to do things....but if He does empower us, it is for the gospel. It is to build up the church. It isn't for our amusement. It isn't for proof that someone is a Christian. It doesn't take the place of the real gospel.
So the problem with those who preach the spiritual gifts isn't that they believe in the gifts. The problem is their emphasis. It is on the wrong thing, and it leads to bad theology, even heresy.
When Jesus told His followers to follow His commandments, He was talking about how we are to love and serve one another. He wasn't talking about Mark 16:9-20.
Even if Mark 16:9-20 is actual Scripture, no one in the early church understood these verses as being tests of whether or not someone is obeys Jesus. No one was asked to drink poison to prove they were believers (in fact, that would be putting God to the test.)
In 1 Corinthians Paul specifically says that not all believers will speak in tongues. I do believe that tongues is one of the biblical spiritual gifts, and I believe that it is still available for believers today. However, I stand with Scripture -- with what Paul said -- the Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts just as He chooses. Not everyone is going to speak in tongues. Paul talked about tongues as being one of the lesser gifts. Therefore, calling speaking in tongues a command of Jesus is wrong. It cannot be used as a litmus test for true believers.
As far as "casting out devils," this cannot be seen as a test for a true Christian either. If it were, it would imply that we were to go out actively looking for demons just so we could cast them out. No. That is putting the focus on the wrong thing.
As far as laying hands on the sick and praying for them -- that is a situation specific thing. If God calls someone to pray for someone, that is one thing. It is another to make an idol out of healing people. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that God will make the person recover. To believe that we can command God to heal someone, and that God has to obey us -- that's making things backwards, and it can cause a lot of harm. Because what happens if someone prays really hard and believes that the person will be healed, but God chooses to take them home to be with Him instead --- then what will the prayers be told? They will be told that it was their fault. They will be told they didn't have enough faith, or that they are not true Christians. So this cannot be used as proof that someone is a Christian.
You see, obeying Jesus is right -- but using these passages from Mark as "proof" is twisting things. Building a whole theology around these verses does a lot of spiritual harm to Christians, and it is putting the focus on the wrong thing. Our focus should be on the real gospel -- on Jesus Christ. Not on the spiritual gifts or any power that is given.
The goal of Jesus' coming here wasn't so that we would walk in power. Rather, Jesus died on the cross for our sins so that we could be reconciled back to God.
The talk about subduing the earth is part of dominionism theology. That is part of another gospel, and it puts emphasis on humans and power. It's related to the Latter Rain/Manifest Sons of God doctrine. Our purpose on earth isn't to take dominion over the earth. It is to serve and worship God and to glorify Him.
Paul preached Jesus Christ and Him crucified. The apostles and those in the early church did do signs and wonders, under the power of the Holy Spirit. However, their primary aim was to preach Jesus Christ.
I never said that we can't be empowered by the Holy Spirit to do things....but if He does empower us, it is for the gospel. It is to build up the church. It isn't for our amusement. It isn't for proof that someone is a Christian. It doesn't take the place of the real gospel.
So the problem with those who preach the spiritual gifts isn't that they believe in the gifts. The problem is their emphasis. It is on the wrong thing, and it leads to bad theology, even heresy.
I quote Gods word they came from his mouth. You say we'll scholars say it was added later on....
Jesus/God said also just as the farther sends me out I send you out..
Seems like to me people only want to pick parts of what Jesus/God said...
No where did I say you have to go look for these things, Jesus said as you go. Meaning as you live out your daily life's if you see some thing wrong you fix it..
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Jesus disciple pray for the boy and it didn't work who did Jesus blame? He said you perverse and corrupt generation how long must I be with you! Bring the boy to me...
A gift is only a manifestation of the spirit. When you walk in fullness of the spirit it is no longer called a gift.
The kingdom of God is not a matter of words but of power.. The kingdom of God is forcefully advancing ? How come? It's either you don't know Gods will or your not confident in him. Do you have to be called to pray for someone. Did he not die for all man.
Jesus/God said also just as the farther sends me out I send you out..
Seems like to me people only want to pick parts of what Jesus/God said...
No where did I say you have to go look for these things, Jesus said as you go. Meaning as you live out your daily life's if you see some thing wrong you fix it..
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Jesus disciple pray for the boy and it didn't work who did Jesus blame? He said you perverse and corrupt generation how long must I be with you! Bring the boy to me...
A gift is only a manifestation of the spirit. When you walk in fullness of the spirit it is no longer called a gift.
The kingdom of God is not a matter of words but of power.. The kingdom of God is forcefully advancing ? How come? It's either you don't know Gods will or your not confident in him. Do you have to be called to pray for someone. Did he not die for all man.