Was Paul Really A False Apostle?

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nathan3

Guest
#21
If Christians would spend a fraction of the time in the word as they do listening to these dingalings on youtube they might actually learn something.
Hes not a dingaling, because the thought is progressing , take a look at what aMessianic said. Many people, believe this now, if not aware people believe that then stick around. I mean its no big deal to some one grounded on the Rock, in the faith.

But new Christians, its going to be a problem for them. It will cast doubt in their mind. and that is the people we need to defend the truth for.
 
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#22
It's easy for Protestants (or those with a Protestant canon) to dismiss non-Paulines as 'dingalings' ... yet how would you feel if others called you the same for, say, rejecting the prophets Sirach, or Enoch?

It's no different.
 
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#23
If Paul would of been false he would of been rejected and hammered by the early members of the 1st century churches. He would not have had almost half of the N.T. canonized and what he wrote would of contradicted the bible (it doesn't) and would not of made it into what is identified as the Word of God. God is strong enough to keep his word down thru the centuries so as to give all humanity a chance and He chose to send Paul unto us that we too can be grafted in to that which was natural.
Most don't realize that there were two major divisions of the early church - pro-Pauline and anti-Paulines. The pro-Paulines gained ascendancy and is what the mainstream church reflects today. The 27% of the Protestant's NT canon consists of Paul's writings, and his books, among the pro-Paulines, weren't canonized in any official manner until the 2nd century beginning with Marcion. The anti-Paulines of the 1st century had already rejected Paul's writings.
 
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#24
Most don't realize that there were two major divisions of the early church - pro-Pauline and anti-Paulines. The pro-Paulines gained ascendancy and is what the mainstream church reflects today. The 27% of the Protestant's NT canon consists of Paul's writings, and his books, among the pro-Paulines, weren't canonized in any official manner until the 2nd century beginning with Marcion. The anti-Paulines of the 1st century had already rejected Paul's writings.[/QUOTE]

So what! Most people reject the word of God no matter who it comes from. I have studied for 24 almost 25 years and have found no contradictions in what Paul taught as compared to the O.T., Jesus, John and even Peter, (do you believe he is biblical), made comments about Paul's writings and it being difficult to understand and if you are not educated a bit will cause you to twist the scriptures to your own judgment. WAS PETER INSPIRED TO WRITE OR NOT? HE WOULD NOT OF MADE THE COMMENTS HE MADE ABOUT PAUL IF PAUL WAS NOT LEGIT.
 
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#25
Most don't realize that there were two major divisions of the early church - pro-Pauline and anti-Paulines. The pro-Paulines gained ascendancy and is what the mainstream church reflects today. The 27% of the Protestant's NT canon consists of Paul's writings, and his books, among the pro-Paulines, weren't canonized in any official manner until the 2nd century beginning with Marcion. The anti-Paulines of the 1st century had already rejected Paul's writings.
So what! Most people reject the word of God no matter who it comes from. I have studied for 24 almost 25 years and have found no contradictions in what Paul taught as compared to the O.T., Jesus, John and even Peter, (do you believe he is biblical), made comments about Paul's writings and it being difficult to understand and if you are not educated a bit will cause you to twist the scriptures to your own judgment. WAS PETER INSPIRED TO WRITE OR NOT? HE WOULD NOT OF MADE THE COMMENTS HE MADE ABOUT PAUL IF PAUL WAS NOT LEGIT.
The issue regarding Paul has been my main subject of Bible study for the past three years.

Paul claimed to be a Pharisee (Acts 23:6, Phil 3:5) - well into his 'Christian ministry'. Messiah commanded me to avoid the teachings of the anti-Law Pharisees (Mt 16:6-12).

As for what Peter wrote in 2Peter, I believe it was a warning, not a commendation. I believe Peter was warning against reading Paul's difficult-to-understand writings by the untaught and unstable (2Pet 3:16), led to their own destruction as a result of being led away by the delusion of lawless teachings (2Pet 3:17). Finally, note that Peter does not call Paul a fellow 'apostle', but only a 'brother'. Perhaps Peter had in mind the command Messiah gave him in Mt 13:30.

(I am here to have a reasoned conversation with friendly debaters: No need to shout in an attempt to make your point.)
 
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AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#26
I hear Muslims make this false assertion frequently. They erroneously argue that Paul came in after the real Apostles and took over corrupting Christianity with new foreign teachings. The truth is the evidence shows Paul was accepted by the original Apostles and the earliest Christians as a genuine convert with sound theology who was given an important mission from Christ himself.

The Historical Case for Paul’s Apostleship: And a Critique of Muslim Arguments

The use of the word apostolos is almost completely confined to New Testament writings. It is evident from Paul’s writings, that there were “apostles before [Paul],” going back at least to the resurrection appearances of Jesus in Jerusalem and elsewhere in Palestine. The appearance of the apostle vocabulary in the Gospel of Mark makes it likely that the notion of the apostle must be taken back into the Gospel story.

Jesus, followed by Paul and other early church leaders, appear to have been influenced in their use of the word apostle by the Jewish notion of the šālîaḥ who in late Judaism represented persons and institutions to others. While it is clear that nontechnical use of “apostle” by Paul resembles the secular šālîaḥ of later Jewish writings, the technical, or “solemn,” use of this word takes on a special character from the unique circumstances associated with the rise of early Christianity.

Galatians, Romans and the two Corinthian letters reflect the rise of opposition to the recognition of Paul as an apostle of Christ. While some of this opposition arose at a local level over personal criticism of Paul, by far the greatest rejection of his apostleship arose from the Judaizers, who at best sought to classify him as a humble šālîaḥ of the Jerusalem church.

Paul himself sought to establish the limited extent of the numbers of apostles. His careful words that Christ “appeared to me last of all” (1 Cor 15:8) serve to show that while there were apostles before him, there were no apostles after him. According to Paul he is both “the least” and “the last” of the apostles.

There should be no doubt that Paul based his claim to be an apostle on having seen the risen Lord and having been commissioned by him to go to the Gentiles (1 Cor 9:1; 15:8; Gal 1:11–17). To be sure, he pointed to his effectiveness in establishing churches, his own sufferings as a continuation in history of the sufferings of Christ and to his own integrity, but these served only to legitimize a ministry which had its basis in Christ’s confronting him on the road to Damascus.

Paul was a man of three worlds: Jewish, Greek, and Roman. Though he had been educated in the strictest Jewish tradition and had studied under the famous rabbi Gamaliel in Jerusalem, Paul spoke Greek fluently and was familiar with Greek thought and literature. He could express the doctrines and teachings of Jesus, many of which were based on Old Testament beliefs completely foreign to the Gentiles, in ways their pagan minds could grasp. In addition, Paul was a Roman citizen, which gave him special freedom of movement, protection in his travels, and access to the higher levels of society. It would be difficult to find a better choice of apostle to the gentiles than Paul.

And wherever he went Paul spread the "good news" of the Gospel he had first heard Stephen testify to before his stoning. That the law of God was given for a time to convince men of their inability to fulfill the will of God and to leave them with no option except to embrace the good news of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection. That was strong medicine for Judaism. The authorities wanted no part of it nor did some early Palestinian Judaizer converts.

But for such a one as Paul, the title apostle or "sent one" was never more appropriate. Paul made a series of trips throughout Asia Minor (today's Turkey) and Greece preaching Jesus as the Christ and planting churches of Gentile believers. Paul's converts were a mixed lot. A few of them were from honorable backgrounds, but the majority were pagans with sordid pasts (e.g. sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, prostitutes, thieves, greedy, drunkards, slanderers, swindlers, etc...). But Paul showed them how to be "washed," "sanctified," and "justified" through Jesus Christ and the Spirit of God to live a moral godly life pleasing to God.

And Paul's task of carrying the gospel of Jesus to the Gentiles was difficult for the gentile world was steeped in wicked occultic false religious systems. Paul encountered pagans who whorshipped a pantheon of Greek gods adopted and renamed by the Romans everywhere he went in addition to mystery fertility cults and indigenous animism.

But Paul had the competency to engage them. His experience with paganism originated locally with people groups like the Canaanites whom the Jews had separated themselves from. Look at Leviticus 19:19 the prohibition given forbidding the Israelites engaging in the fertility cult practices of the pagan Canaanites. The Canaanites believed in occultist sympathetic magic, the idea that symbolic actions can influence pagan gods and nature. Mixing animal breeds, seeds, or materials was thought to “marry” them” so as magically to produce “offspring,” that is, agricultural bounty in the future.

The Canaanites also sacrificed their children by roasting them on bronze altars to pagan gods. Sodom and Gomorrah were in Canaan. The Canaanites practiced incest, homosexuality, zoophilia, pedophilia, and burned their children as sacrifices all in the name of their gods. It was a very sexually immoral and wicked ancient nation and Jewish law was designed to keep them apart from the debauchery.

Paul was simply encountering more of the same as he traveled the dark pagan world of his era with the gospel seed as perhaps the most important apostle of the New Testament.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
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#27
No, I mean the fact that anyone even think he needs defending.
Yup, Paul doesn't 'need ' defending, but with all the lame brain nonsense spoken against him it's a huge temptation not to :)
 
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#28
The issue regarding Paul has been my main subject of Bible study for the past three years.

Paul claimed to be a Pharisee (Acts 23:6, Phil 3:5) - well into his 'Christian ministry'. Messiah commanded me to avoid the teachings of the anti-Law Pharisees (Mt 16:6-12).

As for what Peter wrote in 2Peter, I believe it was a warning, not a commendation. I believe Peter was warning against reading Paul's difficult-to-understand writings by the untaught and unstable (2Pet 3:16), led to their own destruction as a result of being led away by the delusion of lawless teachings (2Pet 3:17). Finally, note that Peter does not call Paul a fellow 'apostle', but only a 'brother'. Perhaps Peter had in mind the command Messiah gave him in Mt 13:30.

(I am here to have a reasoned conversation with friendly debaters: No need to shout in an attempt to make your point.)
I didn't shout as I was being emphatic mi amigo...in response to your statements..

1. Paul was a Pharisee when he was SAUL...Jesus saved him and then taught him by direct revelation
2. I have studied it for 25 years and NO CONTRADICTIONS<----EMPHATIC
3. A reasoned conversation does not (read) in things that are not there-->reference to Peter
4. Peter would have had an attitude toward Paul as Paul raked him over the coals for being a hypocrite...Quit fellowshipping with Gentiles when the Jews came around
5. Peter denied Christ and only wrote how many books???
6. After Paul met Jesus he gave his life for Jesus and even gave His head in Rome for the cause.
7. Study about 10 more years with your eyes open and the lights on ;).....

Not to mention...is the book of Acts to be chunked as well...I guess the dream that Ananias had and the whole 9th chapter of Acts, written by LUKE should be chunked as they both didn't realize that Paul was a fake and I guess the dream from Ananias was not inspired by Jesus.

And if Acts is no good because Luke is ignorant, we must also chunk the book of Luke as well...

Luke quoted Jesus, is that to be trusted as well or do we chunk that too?
 
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#29
I think it's pretty established now for over 1700 years, that the Bible contains many stories, and Paul's is one of them. To reject Paul, seems to be to reject Christianity.

Christianity became something, after the death of Jesus, and Paul's letters is part of that something.

Christianity didn't stop with the death of Jesus and get set in stone. Especially since.... the bible hadn't even been authored by that time.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#30
I'm thankful I trusted GOD in Jesus.

I don't care about the rest of HIS people, but I see that -those who put their trust in Paul- would feel like those Catholics who placed a big deal of trust on Mary, and any other saint they may think of.
We trust not in the person of Paul but his writings.
Or do you think the writings of Matthew,Mark, Luke or John (four Gospels) are more inspired than of Paul's? Or is it ALL God's Word.
 
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#31
I think it's pretty established now for over 1700 years, that the Bible contains many stories, and Paul's is one of them. To reject Paul, seems to be to reject Christianity.

Christianity became something, after the death of Jesus, and Paul's letters is part of that something.

Christianity didn't stop with the death of Jesus and get set in stone. Especially since.... the bible hadn't even been authored by that time.
Exactly...and Jesus told his disciples that he had many things to teach them, but they were not ready to bear it as they had to grow and mature before they could accept the deep truths that Paul under inspiration imparts to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
 
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#32
I didn't shout as I was being emphatic mi amigo...in response to your statements..
ALLCAPS is generally taken to be shouting on the Internet. My apologies if this was not your intent.

1. Paul was a Pharisee when he was SAUL...
Not "was" - "is". Reread Acts 23:6 - εἰμι (eimi, "I am") is in the Greek present indicative, which indicates that Paul was claiming to be, that that point in time, "I am currently a Pharisee". Again, this claim was made well into his "Christian ministry".
Jesus saved him and then taught him by direct revelation
I do not have two or more first-hand witnesses to this event (Mt 18:16).
2. I have studied it for 25 years and NO CONTRADICTIONS<----EMPHATIC 3. A reasoned conversation does not (read) in things that are not there-->reference to Peter
I disagree with your conclusions, based on my study :)
4. Peter would of had an attitude toward Paul as Paul raked him over the coals for being a hypocrite...Quit fellowshipping with Gentiles when the Jews came around
Why did Paul do this publically to Peter, in contrary to Messiah's commandment to have a private discussion with the errant brother (Mt 18:15)?
5. Peter denied Christ and only wrote how many books???
So, Peter is fallible, but Paul is infallible?
6. After Paul met Jesus he gave his life for Jesus and even His head in Rome for the cause.
Many people have given their lives for falsehoods. This is not proof of anything.
7. Study about 10 more years with your eyes open and the lights on ;).....
I do not find this comment becoming of a self-proclaimed follower of Messiah.

Not to mention...is the book of Acts to be chunked as well...I guess the dream that Ananias had and the whole 9th chapter of Acts, written by LUKE should be chunked as they both didn't realize that Paul was a fake and I guess the dream from Ananias was not inspired by Jesus.
Luke largely wrote the book of Acts as a second-hand compiler of information he heard from others, including Paul. I take the book of Acts as a valuable history book.

And if Acts is no good because Luke is ignorant, we must also chunk the book of Luke as well...
Logical fallacy.
 
S

Spokenpassage

Guest
#33
To make it clear from what someone said, Luke was partner of the apostle. If you deny Paul, you are even denying the gospel of Luke. On top of that you are denying the book of Acts also written by Luke who had been penned as the author.

So in a sense, amessianic, you only believe in the 3 gospels, and a few letters written by a few apostles? Who taught you this apostasy?
 
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#34
We trust not in the person of Paul but his writings.
Or do you think the writings of Matthew,Mark, Luke or John (four Gospels) are more inspired than of Paul's? Or is it ALL God's Word.
Depends if your religion, is one of God worshipping or the Bible worshipping.

I honestly don't think all books are equal, but I also think it doesn't matter.

The point of the Bible is NOT the Bible itself. IMHO
 
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#35
To make it clear from what someone said, Luke was partner of the apostle. If you deny Paul, you are even denying the gospel of Luke. On top of that you are denying the book of Acts also written by Luke who had been penned as the author.
I believe Luke to be first and foremost a disciple of Messiah, and then secondly an associate of Paul. I believe Luke was an honorable man who did his best to record what he heard from others. I believe he had a mind of his own, and not chained to Paul's. So, even though I am non-Pauline, I do not necessarily have to be non-Luke at the same time.

So in a sense, amessianic, you only believe in the 3 gospels, and a few letters written by a few apostles?
I believe in the gospels of Matthew and John as the primary account of Messiah's life from their respective first hand witnesses (the apostles Matthew & John). I believe the gospels of Mark and Luke as second-hand witnesses to Messiah's life, and are therefore secondary to Matthew & John.

Who taught you this apostasy?
I've studied this subject extensively on my own, and my conclusions are also based on my own study of the writings in the original languages. As for it being "apostasy", who gets to define that ... the Protestants? ;)
 
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#36
Exactly...and Jesus told his disciples that he had many things to teach them, but they were not ready to bear it as they had to grow and mature before they could accept the deep truths that Paul under inspiration imparts to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
I think one event, that doesn't get enough focus especially by us Non-Jews is the conversion of Cornelius by Peter. He was Roman/Italian, and the first one of us to be baptised.

Most of us wouldn't be here on this board talking if it wasn't for that event post the death of Jesus.

We'd be worshipping Thor or Odin, I guess. (And other things for those of you from other cultures).
 
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#37
That teaching causes many to lose their faith eventually .The video addresses the seeds of doubt being sown among Christians about this lie about Paul .[video=youtube;stBy7TSgI9w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stBy7TSgI9w#t=129p[/video]
I don't know what others say about what makes an apostle but in my view when you have accepted Christ and been given the holy spirit you are then an apostle of Christ. Paul was perhaps the most reckless and zealous apostle and he fulfills the term to go for broke.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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#38
Depends if your religion, is one of God worshipping or the Bible worshipping.

I honestly don't think all books are equal, but I also think it doesn't matter.

The point of the Bible is NOT the Bible itself. IMHO
I agree there are different emphasis' between books but you do believe they are all equally inspired, don't you?
 
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#39
ALLCAPS is generally taken to be shouting on the Internet. My apologies if this was not your intent.

Not "was" - "is". Reread Acts 23:6 - εἰμι (eimi, "I am") is in the Greek present indicative, which indicates that Paul was claiming to be, that that point in time, "I am currently a Pharisee". Again, this claim was made well into his "Christian ministry".
I do not have two or more first-hand witnesses to this event (Mt 18:16).
I disagree with your conclusions, based on my study :)
Why did Paul do this publically to Peter, in contrary to Messiah's commandment to have a private discussion with the errant brother (Mt 18:15)?
So, Peter is fallible, but Paul is infallible?
Many people have given their lives for falsehoods. This is not proof of anything.
I do not find this comment becoming of a self-proclaimed follower of Messiah.

Luke largely wrote the book of Acts as a second-hand compiler of information he heard from others, including Paul. I take the book of Acts as a valuable history book.

Logical fallacy.
1. Accepted and I don't view all caps as yelling as this is not AOL
2.Paul's use of him being a Pharisee was to address that he was brought before the council because of his belief in the Resurrection not to mention that many of the Pharisees including Nicodemus believed on Jesus, but kept it hidden for fear of reprisal. Paul's other uses of the word was to show how strict he was under the law and in accordance with the law, yet lacked what was really needed for life and that was Jesus (the jest that is)
3. Two or more witness is in light of dealing with trespasses against a brother (you took out of context to prove your point)
4.Paul was an equal with Peter and this was not church discipline
5.Never said Paul was infallible as he even claims the title of chief sinner
6.Tell Jesus that giving your head for the cause is not proof of anything (martyrs crown)
7. I would agree this was a little mouthy, but in good sport :)
8. Ananias states clearly that it was Jesus that gave the vision so either he is lying or Luke was misinformed
9. The logic stands...if Luke's History in Acts cannot be trusted as valid then the book of Luke is just as invalid
 
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Spokenpassage

Guest
#40
Amessianic, the epistles and letters of Paul are commentary of what the gospel is. I don't know where you get your information of what Christianity is, if it's not established by Jesus through His apostles including Paul. He may have been just a man, but he was a man of God taught by God...