Righteousness Mat 5:20

[Skinski7]

Here is a quote from the Westminster Confession of Faith...

5. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified; and, although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God’s fatherly displeasure, and not have the light of His countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.

Chapter 11 - Of Justification, Westminster Confession of Faith

That right there is teaching Satan's very first lie. "Ye can sin and not surely die."

That document also states this...

III. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God's displeasure, and grieve His Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.

Chapter 17 - Of the Perseverance of the Saints, Westminster Confession of Faith

Thus they believe that God will reckon someone who is just even if they are engaging in rape and murder so long as they have been cloaked with the obedient track record of Jesus. This is the stuff they teach in the Reformed seminaries and this is what the Pastors imply from the pulpit.

It is incredible how people can believe this stuff. Do they believe it because they have never really thought it through or is it because they love their sin more than the truth?

 

[Elin]

Jesus came to fulfill the law. Jesus also spoke of DOING the commandments.

You seem to forget Jesus was speaking to those under the Law.

 

[Mac4Yuma]

First I think what is Righteousness.

Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.

Know I know what Matthew 5:20 is saying as a whole in the Bible story.

Mac.

 

[Elin]

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Yes, Paul establishes the right use of the law, he sets it on the right basis, subordinate to the law of grace.

Jesus doesn't establish it for us as our substitute and then
pretend that we are righteous when we are still filthy.
That is what you are teaching with all the rhetoric removed.

101% bull.

You confuse the righteousness which is justification (1Co 1:30; Ro 10:3-5)
with the righteousness which is sanctification (Ro 9:31, 14:17: Php 1:11)
and say the former (justification) cancels the latter (sanctification.

Skinsi-ism 101 (% bull)

 

[Elin]

God reckons our FAITH as righteousness.
You claim that God credits the "righteousness of Jesus" to "your account" by faith
while you are still in a manifest wicked state.

Skinski-ism 101. . .confounding righteousness which is justification with righteousness which is sanctification.

God reckons our faith in Jesus Christ as righteousness (justification), declared "not guilty," "sin forgiven,"
which is salvation (Lk 1:77; Col 1:4) from his wrath (Ro 5:9) on our guilt at the final judgment.

Justification cancels out sanctification only in Skinski-ism.

That is why you too avoided the questions I ask and simply write them off...

Nope.

They are the questions of Skinski-ism.
I don't do Skinski-ism, I do Bible.

Those questions about stopping sins like porn watching and stealing are very simple to answer. James wrote this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Your doctrine denies that.

In Skinski-ism my doctrine may deny that.

In Biblicism, it is Biblical.

 

[Elin]

You belief in Total Depravity teaches that an unregenerate sinner simply cannot lay apart all filthiness
and superfluity of naughtiness before receiving the implanted word within.

Yep. . .that's precisely what Paul teaches in Ro 7:7-8,
where the "sinful nature" is the unregenerate nature.

"the sinful mind is hostile to God (rebellious).
It does not submit to God's law (insubordinate),
nor can it do so (spiritually powerless).
Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God."

Your problem is with the NT, not me.

Total Depravity is a heretical false teaching

Only when Ro 7:7-8 is a heretical false teaching.

Thus everything you write will be within the framework of an abstract salvation disconnected from a manifest changed heart.

Only in Skinski-ism.

Failed attempt at total discreditation.

You have an individual getting justified IN their sin positionally.

I'll quote you...

The righteousness of God (Ro 5:17) and the "imputed" righteousness (Ro 5:19) are justification,
the declaration of "not guilty," giving us a right standing before God by faith in Jesus Christ
which removes, and saves from, God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on our guilt at the final judgment.
God declares our acquittal, forgiveness of sin, making us righteous, rightwise with God,
because of our faith in Jesus Christ.

It is not a change of character, nor is it sinlessness (1Jn 1:8).
It is a position of right standing before God, a standing of "not guilty."
It is a gift of God (Ro 5:17), as are faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3),
and repentance (2Tim 2;25; Ac 11:18, 5:31).

The character change comes after justification
in the process of sanctification through the obedience of faith.

That is very deceptive language

I didn't choose the word "justification" (Gr: dikaiosis, dikaioma),
which means "declaration of righteous (rightwise)," "a setting right,"
Paul chose it.

Take it up with him.

While it is true that justification is not a "change of character" nor is it "sinlessness"

There you have it!

it is not disconnected from those things like you imply.

??????
I'm sure there's a thought in there somewhere.

Could we just let the actual statements made govern meanings?

What's this looking for a back door through which to squeeze in discreditation by Skinski-ism?

 

[Elin]

Paul describes faith as a work in this verse...

1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

When Paul said "it is not of works lest any man should boast" he was not speaking of the work of a faith that works by love which fulfills the righteousness of the law. No. He was speaking about the works of the law which the Jews boasted in...

And he was not speaking of a work that saves.

He was speaking of the obedience after the faith only which saves.

 

[Elin]

The reason the religious imposters usually refuse to answer simple questions like...

1. Does a pornography addict have to stop indulging in pornography before they can be forgiven by God?

2. Does a thief have to stop stealing before they can be forgiven by God?

3. Does a child molester have to stop molesting children before they can be forgiven by God?

... is because they directly expose the underlying flaw of their theology. Their theology is preaching Satan's first lie of "ye can disobey God and surely not die" which they dress up in Biblical rhetoric.

Only in Skinski-ism. . .where the real flaw in theology uses justification to cancel out sanctification.

Nice attempt at self justification though (Lk 10:29).

 

[crossnote]

You seem to forget Jesus was speaking to those under the Law.

Yup, and Mr. Pelagian keeps speaking as though we still are under the law.

 

[Elin]

Here is a quote from the Westminster Confession of Faith...

Chapter 11 - Of Justification, Westminster Confession of Faith

That right there is teaching Satan's very first lie. "Ye can sin and not surely die."

That document also states this...
Chapter 17 - Of the Perseverance of the Saints, Westminster Confession of Faith

Thus they believe that God will reckon someone who is just even if they are engaging in rape and murder so long as they have been cloaked with the obedient track record of Jesus. This is the stuff they teach in the Reformed seminaries and this is what the Pastors imply from the pulpit.

It is incredible how people can believe this stuff. Do they believe it because they have never really thought it through or is it because they love their sin more than the truth?

Skinski-ism 101.

Still misunderstanding the meaning and relation of justification to sanctification.

 

[Elin]

Mailman,

Would you care to answer these questions?

1. Does a pornography addict have to stop indulging in pornography before they can be forgiven by God?

2. Does a thief have to stop stealing before they can be forgiven by God?

3. Does a child molester have to stop molesting children before they can be forgiven by God?

I post these questions because they expose the fundamental flaw of what people like you believe.
They really get to the root of the matter and that makes many people uncomfortable.

Actually they expose the fundamental flaw and get to the root of the matter

in Skinski-ism; i.e., rejection of the Biblical meaning of "justification."

You don't like the Greek definition of "justification,"

which means "declaration of acquittal, declared not guilty, declared rightwise,

sin forgiven," which is salvation (Lk 1:77; Col 1:14) from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on one's guilt.

The declaration is based on faith, not on morality.

The struggle to give up addictions follows in the process of sanctification
through the obedience of faith.

However, I know of some who lost them on the spot when they believed.
A miracle of grace.

So the answer to your questions is:

Justification (declaration of acquittal) is based on faith, not on morality.

Take it up with Paul.

 

[Elin]

The righteousness of God (Ro 5:17) and "imputed" righteousness (Ro 5:19) are justification,
the declaration of "not guilty," giving us a right standing before God by faith in Jesus Christ
which removes, and saves from, God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on our guilt at the final judgment.
God declares our acquittal of guilt, forgiveness of sin, making us righteous, rightwise with God,
because of faith in Jesus Christ.

It is not a change of character, nor is it sinlessness (1Jn 1:8).
It is a position of right standing before God, a standing of "not guilty."
It is a gift of God (Ro 5:17), as are faith (Php 1:29; 2Pe 1:1; Ac 18:27; Ro 12:3),
and repentance (2Tim 2;25; Ac 11:18, 5:31).

The character change comes after justification
in the process of sanctification through the obedience of faith.

That is very deceptive language.

Only when the NT is deceptive language.

While it is true that justification is not a "change of character" nor is it "sinlessness"
it is not disconnected from those things like you imply.

Oh, no. . .my meaning is not implied at all, it is absolutely direct.

At the time of justification, it is completely separate from sanctification.

After justification, they are inseparably joined,
for justification is the foundation and basis of sanctification.

 

[Grandpa]

Grandpa and Psychomom,


Does a pornography addict have to stop indulging themselves in porn watching BEFORE God will forgive them?.

No.

They are addicts. They can't stop on their own. They need help. And if they desire help from God they must believe that they are forgiven before they come to Him. Otherwise they can't come to Him. They are condemned, by their own selves, and by you, and lots of other religious people just like you.

But there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.

Luke 23:34 [SUP] [/SUP]Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

The Lord prayed for the people who caused His crucifixion.

Matthew 9:12-13
[SUP]12 [/SUP]But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The Lord Jesus has come for the sinner, to make him whole. The porn addict, the thief, the child molester, the adulterer, the homosexual, and any other classifications of sinners you can come up with. Except, perhaps, the pharisee...

Are you going to dis-qualify people from coming to the Lord Jesus because they sin? That is precisely the group of people He came to save, sinners.

If you think you have made yourself perfect and stopped sinning then you have made your own self righteous. I suppose I can only say 'good for you'. I don't understand how you were able, its completely un-biblical and against everything that I know from first hand experience. I called upon the Lord as an addict and a sinner and He has saved me. He has caused me to no longer be trapped in my sin. I couldn't do it on my own. No matter how hard I tried.

To have someone say that people must do the impossible so that they can be forgiven and saved is ludicrous. God is the one who does the impossible and saves those who are not deserving of it.

You miss the whole point of Jesus Christ. People are trapped in sin. If they could cause their selves to no longer be trapped in sin they wouldn't need Jesus. Everyone needs Jesus. Even those, or especially those, who think they have pulled their own selves out of sin.

 

[mailmandan]

In everything you write you make no distinction between the "works of the law" and the "work of faith."

So what is the difference between the moral aspect of the law and works of faith? In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' "On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Please tell me, which works of faith/good works/works of righteousness could a Christian do that are completely detached from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18). Are there any works of faith/good works/works of righteousness that Christians do which fall outside of loving God and our neighbor as ourself? I didn't think so. Did Paul say that we are saved by grace through "works of faith" or through FAITH? The works of the law vs. works of faith argument is bogus and is the same argument that Roman Catholics and Mormons use as well in an effort to get around "saved through faith, not works." Paul NEVER said saved by works.

There is an active working dynamic of cooperation between man and God that produces a saved soul. You are writing that dynamic off by refusing to make a distinction between the "works of the law" and the "work of faith."

Required for what? To receive salvation based on works? NO. Paul did not say work or works of faith in Ephesians 2:8, he simply said FAITH. Works which follow are the fruit of salvation but never the root. Created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works, not saved by these good works. Where did Paul ever say saved by work or works of faith instead of saved through faith? This distinction that you are attempting to make is bogus in your effort to "add works" to salvation through faith, not works.

Take for example Noah...

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. Building the ark was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Noah was already eternally saved through faith BEFORE he built the ark, he had already found grace. Building the ark showed his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning. Noah did not merit eternal life for him and his family by building the ark.

Noah was saved by grace through faith. God's grace was the warning and instructions and Noah's faith was believing God and building the Ark. That dynamic must exist. Noah didn't trust in God, believe it was already done and have to do nothing. Noah had to do something to be saved.

Noah was eternally saved by grace through faith. Noah's faith was believing God. Building the ark was a demonstration of his faith, not the essence or origin of his faith. If Noah had refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith. Noah had already found grace, was a preacher of righteousness, so he was already eternally saved through faith, but he still needed to build the ark to save him and his family physically from drowning, not to save him and his family eternally by works.

It is through DOING that salvation is wrought. You are claiming that doing is a byproduct of being saved first.

Again, the "whole picture", rests on cause and effect. Do we DO SOMETHING (good works) TO QUALIFY for God's grace? Or is God's grace a free gift received through faith (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8) which then consequently leads TO DOING SOMETHING "good works"? Do we DO SOMETHING because of faith, or is our faith caused by something we do? Which is cause and which is effect? You seem to have it backwards, the cart before the horse. Doing is the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of our faith, but not the essence of our faith and not the means of salvation. We are not saved by works, yet you seem to believe otherwise. So do Roman Catholics and Mormons.

You are viewing the gift of salvation is a package which you simply accept and trust in. That view is incorrect. I pointed to 2Cor 6:1...

What did Paul say? Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. *That is crystal clear, but you want to change that to saved through works of faith, just not specific works of the law, which Paul did not say.

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. (note:- false teachers NEVER connect 2Cor 6:1 to 2Cor 5:21, they quote 2Cor 5:21 in isolation ignoring the context and real meaning)

Yet you just blow that off with...

I didn't blow it off and I already explained to you that to receive the grace of God in vain in means to receive it without cause or without effect, to no purpose. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2). We need to make sure that our reception of God's grace is real and not in vain. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain "without cause or without effect, to no purpose."For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures.. Romans 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes.. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14). The people who failed to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe).

Yet 2Cor 6:1 plainly says "as workers together with him" where...

Yes, not to become saved but because they are already saved. We are not working together with him in order to save ourselves by works.

Workers Together - sunergeō - G4903
From G4904; to be a fellow worker, that is, co-operate: - help (work) with, work (-er) together.

...Paul is speaking of a cooperative work must take place between God and man for grace to be effectual. You completely ignore "working together" due to this mental obstacle you have of "salvation by works."

Are children of God (those already saved) or children of the devil (those who are lost) qualified to be fellow workers with him? What are Christians working together to accomplish? Not salvation by works, which is not simply a mental obstacle but heresy.

Yes salvation is not of works, not of the works of the law, ie. circumcision, feast days. Look at the surrounding context of Eph 2:8-10...

What about the moral aspect of the law? You really believe that the law is limited to circumcision and feast days? In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work done out of faith/work of righteousness" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18). Paul simply said works and James simply said works and did not merely limit works to only "specific" works of the law.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Notice saved through faith, not works, created in Christ unto/for good works in that order. We are not saved by good works.

Both Jew and Gentile are to approach God in the same manner by the one Spirit. Salvation is not of the works of the Mosaic law. Yet salvation is very much of the work of faith because FAITH IS A WORK.

Works of the Mosaic law include the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40) which covers all works. Salvation is through faith (root) and not by works produced out of faith (fruit). Believing is clearly not a work that merits our salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Not to be confused with good works that follow. Saving faith is belief, trust, reliance in Christ for salvation. Acts of obedience which follow are works.

Faith IS obedience.

No, faith is believing and obedience which follows is works. Faith is an act of obedience, in which we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16); not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience which follow which are works. We demonstrate our faith through obedience, yet I see that you can't seem to make the distinction between faith and works of obedience which follow and are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of our faith. Your conclusion then amounts to salvation by works.

It is impossible to be faithful and disobedient at the same time. You are treating faith as mere "mental trust" and implying that it is possible to be disobedient at the same time. Thus that entire paragraph is premised on a fallacy.

We are either slaves of sin or slaves of obedience (no middle ground), but that does not mean that we live sinless, without fault or defect, flawless Christian lives. The word translated faith is found in the Greek lexicon of the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance and is defined as follows: #4102; pistis; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), *especially reliance upon Christ for salvation*; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity. The word translated believe is from the greek word pisteuō which means "to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ). The word "believe" can describe mere mental assent belief, as in (James 2:19) or also include trust and reliance in Christ for salvation, as in (Acts 16:31). The Greek words for "pistis" and "pisteuo" are two forms of the same word. "Pistis" is the noun form, "pisteuo" is the verb form. Nothing in the root meaning of either word carries any concept of works. If you believe in Christ for salvation, then you are trusting in Him alone to save you. This belief/faith results in actions appropriate to the belief - but the actions are NOT INHERENT in the belief.

This is why you make erroneous statements which you attribute to my position like...

That is not an erroneous statement. You have salvation following after obedience/works which follows faith. Prior to my conversion, I made the same mistake and simply defined faith as obedience/works and based salvation on works.

Obedience is an aspect of genuine faith.

Obedience/good works is the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of genuine faith, but not the essence of faith, and not the means of our salvation.

When Paul teaches that "we receive grace for obedience" he understands that we receive God's influence on our hearts so that we may DO IT and it is in the doing that heart transformation occurs.

Paul teaches that we have access by faith into grace, then the heart transformation occurs, followed by acts of obedience. You have it backwards.

It was in DOING that an Ark was produced before the flood.

The ark was produced AFTER Noah had already found grace "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God". DOING was the demonstrative evidence of his faith.

Jesus preached DO. Jesus preached KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

Yes He did BECAUSE we are saved, not to become saved.

 

[mailmandan]

When I speak of the work of faith I am not speaking of the good works of Eph 2:10. That is you failing to make certain distinctions and thus you fall into error because you misunderstand what I am writing.

I understand that you are saying work of faith is good works and that you are saying we are saved BY these good works (just not specific works of the law), in contradiction to Paul. Do you attend the church of Christ? That would explain a lot!

You have obviously heard "not of works" so many times preached without any distinction being made between the "works of the law" and the "work of faith" that you have trouble perceiving that genuine faith is connected to faithfulness or DOING. Thus you throw that aspect right out the window.

You make a distinction that Paul does not make. Show me where Paul said that we are saved through "works of faith," just "not specific works of the law" in Ephesians 2:8,9. He simply said works. Saved through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works does not equate to saved by good works but saved FOR good works. You have it backwards.

No, it has nothing to do with that. The work of faith is not accomplishing multiple acts of obedience works. The work of faith is YIELDING TO GOD FROM THE HEART. That is what saves. You don't make the distinction between "fruit" and a "working faith." You only appear to perceive "fruit" and think I am claiming that "fruit saves you." Wrong.

Through faith we yield to God from the heart. Are we yielding to Satan through faith? No. Repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation is what saves (1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Romans 1:16). Works produced out of faith is the fruit of faith. You said that work of faith is good works and we are saved by work of faith, just not works of the law, now you say that this fruit/good works is not what saves you? Now you are contradicting yourself.

Paul wrote this...

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

So I suppose that you will fill in the blank "form of doctrine" to include any number of good works that you believe saves you. Is that Paul was saying in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8,9? No.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16), they had been slaves to sin. Obeying that form of doctrine may have been evidenced by further obedience/works, but these further acts of obedience/works were not the cause of being made free from sin. In 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel.

Obedience from the heart is absolutely mandatory and genuine FAITH is inclusive of obedience from the heart. A working faith is absolutely essential to the dynamic that produces a saved soul.

This is where you confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit of salvation (obedience/works). Obedience from the heart which follows faith is works and we are not saved by works, but through obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. It's not the working which follows faith that produces a saved heart, but a saved heart as a result of faith that produces the working. You have it backwards and continue to teach salvation by works.

Your version has faith as something passive and is merely "trust that something already happened."

So Christ's finished work of redemption is not something that we can't trust in to save us? It was insufficient and incomplete?

You then look at the cross as an abstraction where Jesus did everything for you and you just trust that it has already been accomplished and then you perceive the changes in you happening sometime down the track.

Jesus said, it is finished. So what must I add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save me? 1 Corinthians 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

That is the deception because it negates the death of the old man, the crucifixion of the flesh once and for all whereby the body of sin is done away with. Think about that.

There is no deception in the gospel of Christ being the power of God unto salvation for everyone who believes. This does not negate the death of the old man and the crucifixion of the flesh. You seem to think that you will save yourself through sinless perfection.

You have the old man still very much alive and then wait for the old man to be gradually transformed and in the meanwhile trust in what you perceive as a done deal. Thus you say things like...

Romans 8:10 - And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. So you think that by transforming yourself and becoming sinless and perfect, then God will finally save you but not before?

What do you think repentance is? Repentance is a cleansing, not a cleansing of past sin for we cannot undo that, it is a cleansing of a present state of rebellion.

The Greek word for "repent" is "metanoia" (noun) and "matanoeo" (verb) you see as defined in the Strongs #3340, 3341: to think differently or afterwards, reconsider. After thought, change of mind. We change our mind about our sinful position, trust in works for salvation and understand our need for Christ to save us and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Christ for salvation. The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, “I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds. This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance. I have heard certain people say, "If you want to be saved, repent of your sins, turn from your sins." If turning from your sins means to stop sinning, then people can only be saved if they stop sinning. And it is unlikely that anyone has ever been saved, since we don't know anyone who has ever completely stopped sinning.

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Repent and believe the gospel.

We don't cleanse ourselves?

Not in the ultimate sense. Only God can do that. Psalm 20:9 - Who can say, "I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin"?

Jas 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

In what sense do we do this? What is the basis for God accepting us? Through our faith in Christ our hearts are purified (Acts 15:9)? or because we went through a radical self reformation and are now sinless, without fault or defect, flawless?

Jas 4:9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Jas 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

We certainly come to God in humility seeking salvation, not in rebellion by continuing to practice sin.

Being lifted up is conditional upon cleansing ourselves in repentance. That is somethine we must do. The Prodigal Son had to leave the pig pen BEFORE his father received Him back. So do we.

Sure, we must repent or else we won't believe the gospel and become saved.

The cleansing God does is the cleansing of our past sins. He washes those away and gives us a fresh start, but that doesn't happen unless we approach God correctly.

We must approach God correctly in repentance. So God only cleanses our past sins and future sins are cleansed based on our sinless performance and not our faith? God gives us a fresh start and we do the rest? Don't need the cross from here on out?

So in summary...

1. There is a distinction between the "work of faith" and the "works of the law."

Actually, there is not. Good works fall under the moral aspect of the law and Paul did not spell out your distinction in Ephesians 2:8,9. This is a distinction that works salvationists make in an effort to get around Ephesians 2:8,9.

2. "Not of works" does not mean "not of doing."

Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: It sounds to me like you are determined to save yourself by works, that you call "of faith."

3. Salvation is a result of "God leading" and the "Christian submitting" which is synergism (cooperation or two parties working together for an outcome) and this produces a transformation of the heart.

Those who have been saved through faith are now on the road of ongoing sanctification. You are trying to work FOR your salvation instead of trusting exclusively in Jesus for salvation.

4. Repentance involves a self cleansing whereby the rebellion to God is forsaken.

This is not simply self reformation without faith.

5. Dying with Christ in the baptism of repentance is where the rebellion to God ceases once and for all because our old man is crucified whereby the body of sin is destroyed once and for all. It is through this death that we are set free from the bondage of sin once and for all.
6. Having been crucified with Christ we are then raised up with Christ by the Spirit to walk in newness of life where we have victory over sin, the flesh and the devil.

Water baptism is done on the basis of repentance. Matthew 3:11 - I baptize you with water for repentance.. It sounds like you may confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism).

 

[mailmandan]

Mailman,

Would you care to answer these questions?

1. Does a pornography addict have to stop indulging in pornography before they can be forgiven by God?

Those who practice such sins shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21).

2. Does a thief have to stop stealing before they can be forgiven by God?

You really expect me to say no? Just keep on stealing and ask God to forgive you anyway?

3. Does a child molester have to stop molesting children before they can be forgiven by God?

Keep on molesting children but God will forgive you anyway? Absolutely not. These are no brainers. Does a person need to become sinless, without fault or defect, flawless before they can be forgiven by God?

I post these questions because they expose the fundamental flaw of what people like you believe. They really get to the root of the matter and that makes many people uncomfortable.

People like me believe? You obviously don't know me very well. I quote 1 John 3:7-10 all the time. I don't teach that Christians have a license to sin. Your heavy focus on moral behavior and lack of trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation sounds just like the Pharisees. Without faith it's impossible to please God and faith in works is not faith in Christ, so all the attempts to morally reform your life in of itself cannot save you.

 

[mailmandan]

I don't reject imputed righteousness. I reject the perversion of imputed righteousness which teaches that the "righteousness of Christ" is credited to a believers account. I reject that "Jesus obedient track record" is credited to the believer. That is what I reject.

What is the righteousness of God then that is credited to our account? Our own obedient track record? No.

Imputed righteousness in Romans chapter 4 means God reckons GENUINE FAITH as righteousness. In other words God overlooks a sinners past sin if they have repented and are faithful. Abraham truly trusted God and thus put his life in God's hands.

What is this righteousness? Abraham believed God and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:3).

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Which led him to Genesis 15:5-6 where Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

When God told Abraham to do something Abraham did it because Abraham had genuine faith.

Yes, BECAUSE he had genuine faith, not to save himself by works.

Abraham walked in the steps of faith (Rom 4:12) and God therefore counted him as righteous.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous or by walking in steps of faith after he believed God. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith.

Imputed righteousness has NOTHING to do with God crediting the righteousness of another to our accounts. That doctrine serves to uphold the notion that you can sin and not surely die because God no longer sees your ongoing rebellion. That is a satanic deception.

So who's righteousness is credited to our account? Or does God simply view faith as sinless perfection? The "righteousness of God in Him" has nothing to do with the righteousness of Christ? Those who are born of God/children of God are not in ongoing rebellion. That is satanic deception (1 John 3:7-10).

 

[Elin]

I don't reject imputed righteousness.
I reject the perversion of imputed righteousness which teaches
that the "righteousness of Christ" is credited to a believers account. I reject
that "Jesus obedient track record" is credited to the believer. That is what I reject.

Imputed righteousness in Romans chapter 4 means God reckons GENUINE FAITH as righteousness.

Yes, and in Ro 5 and 2Co 5, we learn further the full meaning of that.

Imputed righteousness has NOTHING to do with God crediting the righteousness of another to our accounts.

Wrong.

2Co 5:21 -
"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that
in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Jesus was made our sin (in that he bore our guilt--1Pe 2:24), and
we were made his righteousness.

Ro 5:21
"For just as through the disobedience of the one man (Adam) the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man (Christ) the many will be made righteous.

Just as Adam' sin is imputed to all those born of Adam,
So Christ's righteousness is imputed to all those born of Christ.

Stop wrestling with and distorting the Word of God (2Pe 3:16).

That doctrine serves to uphold the notion that you can sin and not surely die because God no longer sees your ongoing rebellion.
That is a satanic deception.

God overlooks a sinners past sin if they have repented and are faithful.
Abraham truly trusted God and thus put his life in God's hands.

Nope. . .the satanic deception is your rejection of the Biblical meaning of justification,
requiring that it be based on obedience.

Ro 4:5
However to the man that does not work but trusts
God who justifies the wicked,
his faith is credited as righteousness.

Justification is not about obediencer.
God justifies the wicked. . .not the slightly wicked, not the moderately wicked, but the wicked.

You don't understand the nature of rebirth into saving faith and eternal life.
It is a powerful event (Mt 22:29).

Rebirth-->faith-->justification all occur at practically the same time.

It's not a matter of practicing the obedience of faith for a period of time
to show one is not wicked before one is justified.

"God justifies the wicked" overturns Skinski-ism in one verse.

 

[Skinski7]

Quite a few replies which is very good.

The responses clearly demonstrate the fallacy I am speaking of, let's take a look at a few.


First off Grandpa answered the question I posed about stopping sin and the Calvinists who appear to be tribesman, Elin and psychomom all LIKED his answer.

The question was...

Grandpa and Psychomom,


Does a pornography addict have to stop indulging themselves in porn watching BEFORE God will forgive them?.

The answer...

No.

They are addicts. They can't stop on their own. They need help. And if they desire help from God they must believe that they are forgiven before they come to Him. Otherwise they can't come to Him. They are condemned, by their own selves, and by you, and lots of other religious people just like you.

These people believe that you get saved IN your sins, not FROM yoru sins. In other words they believe that one could be engaged in the act of raping and murdering babies and at the same time be in a forgiven state. To them salvation has NOTHING to do with being rescued from a state of being in "bondage to sin." The porn addict gets forgiven yet remains in bondage as Grandpa's above answer illustrates.

The fundamental reason they believe this is they have swallowed the lie of "inability" where man is simply unable to stop sins like these. Yet when we look in the Bible we see Nineveh stopped their wickedness BEFORE mercy was granted. We see that the Prodigal Son forsook the pig pen and was returning home BEFORE forgiveness was granted.

In their theology one must only have a desire to stop and believe that they are forgiven before hand. A genuine repentance experience is thrown completely out the window and these folks dance around this fact with long winded rhetoric.

God said to Cain...

Gen 4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Cain had the ability to obey God or disobey God.

So Grandpa, tribesman, Elin and psychmom how did Nineveh forsake their sin if they lacked the ability to do so? How about the Prodigal Son leave the pig pen with a changed mind if he lacked the ability? According to your theology they must have already been in a forgiven state.

Jesus preached repent and Paul preached repent and do works meet for repentance. A real repentance necessitates a change in action, not some time down the line but IMMEDIATELY. If there is no change then there was no repentance.

This one point alone should have the alarm bells ringing for anyone reading this.

 

[Skinski7]

At least mailmandan doesn't totally buy into that deception for he answered...

Those who practice such sins shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21).
You really expect me to say no? Just keep on stealing and ask God to forgive you anyway?

Keep on molesting children but God will forgive you anyway? Absolutely not. These are no brainers.

Note that Elin liked this post where the answer is the opposite of Grandpa's post above. Elin LIKING both posts is a very good example of how these people will speak out of both sides of their mouths and continually contradict themselves. Grandpa said NO and mailmandan implied YES by warning that those who do such things will not enter the kingdom. Bravo mailmandan still have some sense in you.

Yet mailmandan you are still in error due to a flawed underlying understanding of the Gospel. You go on to state this...

Does a person need to become sinless, without fault or defect, flawless before they can be forgiven by God?

That wasn't the question I asked. The problem is that in your mind you equate what I am stating about an "obedient heart" with 'sinlessness, faultlessness and being defectless' which IS NOT what I am saying at all. That you would perceive such a thing proves you do not understand me at all.

I am speaking of the sin of REBELLION here. I am speaking of DOING EVIL KNOWINGLY (Jam 4:17). I am speaking of OBEYING SIN UNTO DEATH (Rom 6:16) which is the opposite of OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS. I am not speaking of sinless perfection or something similar, that term is an oft brought forth strawman which springs from a place of misunderstanding.

A new believer who has just repented does not know much. By walking the road of obedience unto righteousness they will find holiness which leads to everlasting life. You can read that in the latter part of Romans chapter 6.

The people of Nineveh ceased from their filthy ways and they had the full ability to do so. The Prodigal Son forsook the pig pen and ceased from his rebellious living and he had the full ability to do so. A pornography addict, likewise, must cease from indulging in pornography BEFORE God will forgive them for it. How do they do that? Via godly sorrow working repentance unto salvation...

2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
2Co 7:11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

The folks who deny this have it backwards. They believe you "confess you sinfulness" and "trust in Jesus" and that this brings about reconciliation because of the "finished work on the cross" which they perceive as effecting a legal transaction where "sins debt is cancelled via payment (thus law nailed to the cross)" and "righteousness of Jesus is credited to the sinners account." Thus they have God reconciling Himself to the sinfulness of men when the Gospel actually has men forsaking their sin and approaching God with a contrite non-rebellious heart via the cross where one can then begin to grow as a baby.

These people deny the CRUCIFIXION OF THE FLESH AND THE PASSIONS AND DESIRES IN REPENTANCE which is the "death of the old man whereby the body of sin is done away with."

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This NEVER happens. This is what Satan has been able to eliminate with all this false theology. Notice that these people NEVER speak about the death of the old man in repentance. They never speak about the bondage serving sin being broken. NEVER. They do not understand it.


Now mailmandan please listen to me. You say this...

People like me believe? You obviously don't know me very well. I quote 1 John 3:7-10 all the time. I don't teach that Christians have a license to sin. Your heavy focus on moral behavior and lack of trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation sounds just like the Pharisees. Without faith it's impossible to please God and faith in works is not faith in Christ, so all the attempts to morally reform your life in of itself cannot save you.

I was wrong to broad stroke you into the theology of psychomom, grandpa, Elin and others. What you believe is quite different but it is still faulty as you do hold to many of the fundamental flaws which they are deceived by.

You think...

Your heavy focus on moral behavior and lack of trusting exclusively in Christ for salvation sounds just like the Pharisees. Without faith it's impossible to please God and faith in works is not faith in Christ, so all the attempts to morally reform your life in of itself cannot save you.

You completely misunderstand me I assure you and I recommend that you CAREFULLY and SLOWLY read what I have written previously.

The way you view "trusting in Christ for salvation" is wrong. Redemption is through "dying WITH Christ" not by "trusting in a sin debt being paid." Carefully read Romans 6...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

You are still not making the distinction between WORKING FAITH and FLESH WORKS. It is by a working faith that we experience what occurs in Romans 6:4-7.

God convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgement. This brings us to godly sorrow which works a genuine repentance. We become aware of the evil we have been doing and we come into agreement with God that walking in rebellion to God really is wrong and evil. We thus change our minds about this conduct and turn away from it. In turning away from it we turn to God and receive Him in our inward parts. The energy of God then brings about a total transformation of our inward parts (our spirit comes alive to God) and we are energised to walk according to His will.

This process has NOTHING to do with flesh works or outward moral rule observance. It has to do with "obedience from the heart." It has NOTHING to do with being perfect or sinlessness (when noting the difference between sin unto death and sin not unto death which is "rebellion vs misjudgments/mistakes."

I 100% agree that "all the attempts to morally reform your life in of itself cannot save you." Absolutely agree with that. Apart from God we can do nothing simply because God is the source of all light. Jesus Christ is the light of the world and apart from him we can do nothing. Without the source of light we would have no direction, we would be lost in darkness, not knowing where to go.

Also returning to obedience cannot undo the condemnation already wrought for we are still guilty. The death of Christ is the means of purging that guilt whereby we receive forgiveness through the blood. The blood is the MEANS by which we approach God to be washed, it is not an abstract "finished provision" which one "trusts in" and is "cloaked by."

Penal Substitition and Inborn Corruption are the two greatest theological deceptions ever invented by men because they utterly redefine the Gospel. Inborn Corruption teaches "inability" and thus redefines repentance (as is clearly evident in the posts above) and Penal Substitution presents a means that one can be reconciled to God whilst still in rebellion.

Really, really think about this. What does the Bible actually teach? These wolves are masters of snipping proof texts, connecting them together and then piling on the rhetoric to paint a deceptive picture.

Jesus warned of MANY being deceived. The theology that the MANY believe in today is a lie.