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That's right, but it is not Calvin's way, or the Reformed Theology way.
I do not believe that you are prepared to address any Scripture HONESTLY, but always through Calvinistic lenses.
It is you -- I believe -- who claimed that John 3:16 should be re-written as "God so loved THE ELECT..." And God must laugh at this foolish presumption.
I do not believe that you are prepared to address any Scripture HONESTLY, but always through Calvinistic lenses.
It is you -- I believe -- who claimed that John 3:16 should be re-written as "God so loved THE ELECT..." And God must laugh at this foolish presumption.
Don't know whose teaching you are taking about all I know is what the Word states, I read. I believe.
Never attended a Bible College, in my country we do not have that privilege. But I do attend a school, will only graduate when I go home. Its known as the school of the Holy Ghost, the school of experience: 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
So am I to assume you don't believe the prophecy made by Christ in Matt 7: 21-23 is going to happen.
You believe people without faith in Christ can cast out devils (only works) difficult considering: Acts 19:13-16 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
But if you personally believe once saved you can never sin (physical or spiritually) until day the Lord takes you home Praise the Lord!!
I am in total agreement with you because it is spiritual: 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
But remember not everyone is like you. In the kingdom of God we come in from all walks of life. Not everyone has the same measurement of faith.
The title of this topic is totally wrong. It is no difference to teaching "Once saved always saved"
The Bible does not contradict it self. Even when we are saved, God warns followers through His Word to keep from sin. No difference in the Old Testament. ( as long as we are in this fleshly form, we are still vulnerable to sin).
The warning in terms of teachings, parables, prophecy and instuctions: 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
God is a God of Blessings, nothing is impossible to Him but God has a standard. If we are to be Bless their are certain conditions we must fulfill. It is a difference between living a blessed life and a struggling life. Making it home or being cast out.
Once saved, we must walk according to His Way not our ways.
Unfortunately some people miss out the fine print in the Word; "Thou shall do" "Thou shall Not"
Teaching people they will make Heaven without the "fine print" gives them free reign to live their lives how they want to live it.
This is reason we as believers must be careful how we teach the Word (held accountable)
The best and only teacher is the Holy Ghost, He lives in you, ask Him.
This is the mess "once saved always saved" teachings in my country. When questioned, their answer is God has saved me, its alright.
In other religious sects they are taught keep to the rituals and salvation is assured.
Salvation is a free gift but it came at at cost. This is why the Word warns believers: Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Why fear and trembling and not love, considering love is the greatest? This is why I fear............Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I know, according to His Word, this will happen if I stop (I can, my Will) following His way.
But Bro if you are living a sinless life Praise Lord, I know God will Bless you abundantly for your stance.
God Bless
Never attended a Bible College, in my country we do not have that privilege. But I do attend a school, will only graduate when I go home. Its known as the school of the Holy Ghost, the school of experience: 1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
So am I to assume you don't believe the prophecy made by Christ in Matt 7: 21-23 is going to happen.
You believe people without faith in Christ can cast out devils (only works) difficult considering: Acts 19:13-16 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
But if you personally believe once saved you can never sin (physical or spiritually) until day the Lord takes you home Praise the Lord!!
I am in total agreement with you because it is spiritual: 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
But remember not everyone is like you. In the kingdom of God we come in from all walks of life. Not everyone has the same measurement of faith.
The title of this topic is totally wrong. It is no difference to teaching "Once saved always saved"
The Bible does not contradict it self. Even when we are saved, God warns followers through His Word to keep from sin. No difference in the Old Testament. ( as long as we are in this fleshly form, we are still vulnerable to sin).
The warning in terms of teachings, parables, prophecy and instuctions: 2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
God is a God of Blessings, nothing is impossible to Him but God has a standard. If we are to be Bless their are certain conditions we must fulfill. It is a difference between living a blessed life and a struggling life. Making it home or being cast out.
Once saved, we must walk according to His Way not our ways.
Unfortunately some people miss out the fine print in the Word; "Thou shall do" "Thou shall Not"
Teaching people they will make Heaven without the "fine print" gives them free reign to live their lives how they want to live it.
This is reason we as believers must be careful how we teach the Word (held accountable)
The best and only teacher is the Holy Ghost, He lives in you, ask Him.
This is the mess "once saved always saved" teachings in my country. When questioned, their answer is God has saved me, its alright.
In other religious sects they are taught keep to the rituals and salvation is assured.
Salvation is a free gift but it came at at cost. This is why the Word warns believers: Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Why fear and trembling and not love, considering love is the greatest? This is why I fear............Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
I know, according to His Word, this will happen if I stop (I can, my Will) following His way.
But Bro if you are living a sinless life Praise Lord, I know God will Bless you abundantly for your stance.
God Bless
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It's funny how you say that I'm not prepared to address scripture honestly, while you ignore half of the Bible.
I believe Calvin hit the nail on the head regarding Gods sovereignty over His choice to save His elect. You guys believe God just took a gamble with His creation, not knowing who would be smart enough to work out that the Gospel is a good deal and one should believe it because of it's attractive benefits.
How do you deal with all of those verses I listed, which support Calvin's view.
I believe Calvin hit the nail on the head regarding Gods sovereignty over His choice to save His elect. You guys believe God just took a gamble with His creation, not knowing who would be smart enough to work out that the Gospel is a good deal and one should believe it because of it's attractive benefits.
How do you deal with all of those verses I listed, which support Calvin's view.
We must look at it from Gods point of view before we pass judgement on Him. Can we blame Him for knowing the future as in who will believe and who won't, He can't help knowing it comes with being the almighty God who knows all things. Yes that means all things, including who the believers and unbelievers will be before they're born.
We can't accuse God of being the author of sin either, yes He created us with a free will and the ability to sin and we did. But He also provided salvation as well, for those who trust in His Son.
I think most of us misunderstand God and His attributes, we try to process his infinite power and holiness with our finite little minds and it just does not compute. That's why we a re called to trust and obey Him in all things, He will reveal everything to us in His appointed time. So let's be patient and wait on the Lord.
We can't accuse God of being the author of sin either, yes He created us with a free will and the ability to sin and we did. But He also provided salvation as well, for those who trust in His Son.
I think most of us misunderstand God and His attributes, we try to process his infinite power and holiness with our finite little minds and it just does not compute. That's why we a re called to trust and obey Him in all things, He will reveal everything to us in His appointed time. So let's be patient and wait on the Lord.
Jesus will NOT lose any that his God actually gave him, but there are MANY that claim to be his, and yet he "never knew" them.
The work Jesus was commanded to finish is to make salvation POSSIBLE for the whole world, but ONLY if they believe, and obey.
John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The work Jesus was commanded to finish is to make salvation POSSIBLE for the whole world, but ONLY if they believe, and obey.
John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
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OK, were almost on the same page. You acknowledge that God doesn't lose anyone so all we need to do is identify those who are in Christ and we can say they are secure. The problem of' course is we can't know for sure who they are. There's no way of identifying a true believer.
When Christ told the disciples that one of them would betray Him, none of the disciples had any idea who it was. So we can't tell who Gods elect are either.
When Christ told the disciples that one of them would betray Him, none of the disciples had any idea who it was. So we can't tell who Gods elect are either.
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Let's not go there, you are talking to a die hard Calvinist. I can bury you in scriptures which support Calvin but I won't bother because you've obviously deiced to side with Arminius. So I won't be able to convince you no matter how many scriptures I present and you won't convince me either as I have studied the subject in it's entirety.
The debate has been raging for 500 years, we are not going to achieve anything by exchanging fire here.
The debate has been raging for 500 years, we are not going to achieve anything by exchanging fire here.
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If one person in a marriage dies, does that mean the spouse is still married to the dead partner. And if so, then if the living spouse marries again, they are committing polygamy. (Pretty preposterous, crazy analogy, huh?)
If a supposed apple seedling bears no fruit year after year after year is it still an apple tree? Maybe so . . .? But what if you cut the tree down, examine its cells and find that there is absolutely no internal evidence of the tree being an "apple tree"? Is it still an apple tree because it was planted as an apple tree? Maybe a prankster came and cut off the apple tree and grafted in a maple tree? Is it still an apple tree? . . . . . .
If a supposed apple seedling bears no fruit year after year after year is it still an apple tree? Maybe so . . .? But what if you cut the tree down, examine its cells and find that there is absolutely no internal evidence of the tree being an "apple tree"? Is it still an apple tree because it was planted as an apple tree? Maybe a prankster came and cut off the apple tree and grafted in a maple tree? Is it still an apple tree? . . . . . .
A false convert is one who professes to believe, but it's just mental assent, and not a true conversion. They've not been born from above. There are plenty of religions that claim to be christian, but they teach a different gospel for salvation, and those involved in such religions embrace that gospel and call themselves christians, but they've not been born again. Just as we see on judgment day that many will say "Lord, Lord" - these are the tares that were christians outwardly, but the inside of the cup was not clean. No inner change.
By their fruits you will know them (Matthew 7).
In the case of Judas, outwardly he appeared to be a true follower, but he never truly believed. The disciples would called Jesus "Lord" but Judas would instead call Him "rabbi" which means he only saw Jesus as a teacher and nothing more. But as I said in my other post, the fact that he was called "son of perdition" just like the future Antichrist, make clear he never believed. Plus, he was a lover of money.
By their fruits you will know them (Matthew 7).
In the case of Judas, outwardly he appeared to be a true follower, but he never truly believed. The disciples would called Jesus "Lord" but Judas would instead call Him "rabbi" which means he only saw Jesus as a teacher and nothing more. But as I said in my other post, the fact that he was called "son of perdition" just like the future Antichrist, make clear he never believed. Plus, he was a lover of money.
A born again Christian, not by will of the flesh, by Gods will. Born of the Spirit of God. Sown in corruption. Raised by incorruption. Adams example, disobedience to Gods right ways. No longer earthly, now with the Lord from Heaven. The corruptible, being a meek and quiet spirit, which is not corruptible.
Next consideration. Can a born again of the Spirit lose salvation? No. Can all who are not born again, recognize they are not born again? No. Does born again focus on themselves, or this is what corruptible does ? An easy answer.
We can escape the pollution of this world, through knowledge and belief in Christ, and they do not become born again. It is Gods choice, born again of the spirit, do not behave like all non born again, which is living their life for themselves, Jesus Christ is the example, to live your life by dying, to bring forth fruit, your fruit is not in your hands, all is in Gods hands.
Everybody focuses like this world teaches, what is for me, who I am, what I get, am I this, am I that, but that is not Heavens way which is opposite, it is seeking the wealth of others only, learn what is told and shown, because all who consider they are born again, have shown what they really are..
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quietspirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Colossians 3:3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
1 Corinthians 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
Philippians 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Philippians 2:21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.
1 Corinthians 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Next consideration. Can a born again of the Spirit lose salvation? No. Can all who are not born again, recognize they are not born again? No. Does born again focus on themselves, or this is what corruptible does ? An easy answer.
We can escape the pollution of this world, through knowledge and belief in Christ, and they do not become born again. It is Gods choice, born again of the spirit, do not behave like all non born again, which is living their life for themselves, Jesus Christ is the example, to live your life by dying, to bring forth fruit, your fruit is not in your hands, all is in Gods hands.
Everybody focuses like this world teaches, what is for me, who I am, what I get, am I this, am I that, but that is not Heavens way which is opposite, it is seeking the wealth of others only, learn what is told and shown, because all who consider they are born again, have shown what they really are..
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Peter 3:4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quietspirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Colossians 3:3 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
1 Corinthians 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.
Philippians 2:4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Philippians 2:21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.
1 Corinthians 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
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