A golden key to understand the book of Revelations

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Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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Quite the opposite. The believing remnant is the remnant of Israel. The Church is (a) not merely "the Gentile Church, and (b) is definitely not a remnant.
No, it is not, can't you read? Is God lying? The very scripture you say is the Jews who repented ing PROTECTED proves you wrong. It clearly states the Dragon (Satan) gets angry that he can not get at the Woman(Israel who repent and are protected), so how can THE WOMAN also be the Remnant he TURNS and goes after in his anger? It makes zero sense, I now understand why you guys get confused via basic stuff like this, you are just not putting in the effort brother or either Satan is clouding your judgment like he did Peter when Peter cut off the ear of the soldier after Jesus told him that his kingdom was not of THIS WORLD.

The Remnant here is the Remnant Church. The Gentile Church, the Jews (Woman) who repents is PROTECTED, thus Saran can not get at her. The 2/3 of the Jews who refuse to repent do not have the testimony of Jesus AND they are 2/3 so they couldn't be a Remnant anyway.

Step it up brother, don't allow a pre-perceived notion to take you in the wrong direction. The bible always explains its seeming conundrums, the facts are once we learn to stop buying into things that can't be, even though they may puff up our pride...........only then can God teach us His deep truths.
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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The Remnant is Jew and Gentile in CHRIST - there is only a Remnant from both the Jews and the Gentiles who will ever become the Body of Christ.

After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’


BOOM BOTTA BING BOTTA BOOM
Just like everything else, just like he LAST TRUMP, you are perfect again, WRONG AGAIN. Keep that streak going.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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I think a lot of our disagreements on this topic would cease if - instead of switching into eschatological mode ready to defend our doctrines - we read Revelation in the chronological context of other books. What I mean is, after the events of Genesis came the events of Exodus...and after the events of Joshua came the events of Judges...after the prophecies of Malachi came the events of the Gospels.

Likewise, after the Messiah ascended into heaven in Acts 1, what's the very next event we're told happens from His perspective?


Revelation 12:5

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


^^^ So this verse was Messiah ascending to the Almighty's throne after talking with His apostles 10 days prior to Pentecost...and then we're told there's a battle where satan and his angels are cast down to earth incredibly angry at "the woman" (Israel) who birthed Messiah.


Revelation 5:3-7
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.



From this passage, we're told after appearing in the throne room, The Messiah takes the 7-sealed scroll from Almighty and began opening it; the four horsemen descend to earth (many scholars believe that the 1st horseman is the antichrist spirit)...we then read of God's servants beheaded in the 5th seal.

"satan and his angels cast down angry at Israel"..." the four horsemen descend followed by martyrdom of some of God's servants."

----

If the rest of the book of Acts - from chapter 2 until the end - is a record of what happened on earth after Messiah ascended to heaven, then Revelation 5 details (and Rev 12 summarizes) what happened in heaven after Messiah appeared. We can synchronize the events of heaven and earth at His ascension.

If this isn't the case; if this isn't how we're meant to sync these accounts, then we're forced to ask ourselves where the Messiah was between the time He ascended in a cloud in Acts 1 to when He appeared as a slain lamb to take the scroll in Revelation 5, because prior to Him appearing "there was no man in heaven" found worthy enough to take the scroll, which means the only worthy man wasn't anywhere in heaven. This means if Messiah ascended to heaven in Acts 1 the events of Revelation 5 had to have happened immediately after (and if ch5 happened then follows ch6 and so on, and so on).

Remember, Stephen saw Him at the right hand of the throne just before he was stoned to death (Acts 7:55) so Messiah was there.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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It clearly states the Dragon (Satan) gets angry that he can not get at the Woman(Israel who repent and are protected), so how can THE WOMAN also be the Remnant he TURNS and goes after in his anger?
The woman is symbolic of Israel, and her seed are the believing remnant. Now please note carefully: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
 

Rondonmon

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May 13, 2016
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The woman is symbolic of Israel, and her seed are the believing remnant. Now please note carefully: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
No, you are missing what HER SEED is brother, HER SEED is Jesus Christ

Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Here is the point, watch really close, because this proves the Pre Trib Rapture (I can't keep up with everyone but you seem to be there also). We agree that the Woman (Israel) are the 1/3 who REPENT and then flee Judea into the Petra and Bozrah area whereGod protects them. 1.) The Remnant can not be these here because Satan TURNS and goes after the Remant because he can not get at TE WOMAN (Israel who repents and thus God PROTECTS her). So, the Remnant can not be these 1/3 who Repebt because it CAN NOT be who is being spoken of, Satan goes after the Remnant of Israel seed, but nit these 1/3 who repent because it EXPLICITLY SAYS the Dragon gets angry and then TURNS to go after THIS REMNANT.

So, who is the Remnant of HER (Israels) SEED (Jesus Christ)....? Well, the SEED of Jesus is Church (mostly Gentile before the Rapture but ALL Gentile after the rapture because the Jews who repented during the 70th week are all protected by God. The 2/3 who refuse to repent can not even qualify as a Remnant (a small part of what's left) because 2/3 is larger than 1/3. They also do not qualify because they refused to repent and will be CUT-OFF (die) thus they will NEVER have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

Thus after the Rapture of the Church other Gentiles come unto Christ just like the 1/3 Jews (3-5 million Jews) and they are the Remnant of Jesus who is HER (Israel's) SEED. The Church is in Heaven thus the Church on this earth is THE REMNANT spoken of in Rev. 12:17. The 1/3 are PROTECTED it can't be them, the 2/3 are not a Remnant AND they never have the TESTIMONY of Jesus.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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Most people totally ignore the "golden key" to understanding Revelation which is given at the beginning of the book and repeated at the ending of the book for emphasis.

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to shew unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John; who bare witness of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, even of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." (Rev 1:1-3, ERV)

"And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass...And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand." (Rev 22:6, 10, ERV)

Maybe someone can explain why those emphatic statements don't mean what they state, but I've never seen them explained away as to turn the bulk of Revelation into our future.
I say the revelation of Jesus Christ is His coming again, His revelation from heaven .... when He is revealed from heaven with great power and glory, the events shown to John will shortly come to pass and the time is will be at hand.

But Paul writing to his churches also says "the time is short" and Jesus opens His ministry saying "the time is at hand"
 

Evmur

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To begin with, the great tribulation begins when Michael, who is currently holding Satan, the son of perdition, at bay (2 Thess. 7), rises and casts that son of perdition, along with his angels, out of heaven and into this world (Rev. 12:7-9). Then there will be a period of spiritual affliction, extreme hardship, unlike anything that has ever occurred in the history of the nation:

"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. - Daniel 12:1 (NKJV)

In Matthew 24, Jesus Christ sat’s it nearly word for word:

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. - Matthew 24:21 (NKJV)

It's critical that you understand that there are two tribulations. The first tribulation is the appearance of the false messiah (antichrist) to deceive the world:

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. - Revelation 12:7-10 (NKJV)

This is when Satan is physically cast out and appears in his role as the antichrist.

. . . . .
Now look here…. The scripture below describes the second tribulation (Note: It says after that tribulation).

"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; "the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. "And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. - Mark 13:24-27 (NKJV)

The four winds are associated with the time of the end, which is the second tribulation, God`s wrath, and this is when the battle of Armageddon and Hamon-gog take place.

Those battles will not last 15 minutes, because we don`t fight them; they are fought for us by God.

So there you have it, the two tribulations.
What you call the second tribulation is the beginning of God's wrath as you rightly point out that and the Lord's coming to gather His saints are post tribulation.

You are correct.
 
Jul 24, 2021
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Neither. It is Bible doctrine. Just ignore all the propaganda.
The purpose of the rapture is so the elect can avoid the tribulation. So the elect can avoid dying for Jesus. Why espouse a doctrine to avoid death in Christ? Sounds south of unScriptural. What do you call christologicals who avoid death in Christ?

Col 2: 18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
 
Nov 5, 2021
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I say the revelation of Jesus Christ is His coming again, His revelation from heaven .... when He is revealed from heaven with great power and glory, the events shown to John will shortly come to pass and the time is will be at hand.

But Paul writing to his churches also says "the time is short" and Jesus opens His ministry saying "the time is at hand"
Yes, Paul was writing prior to 70 AD when Matt. 24:1-34 was happening; he was not talking about the last day. Jesus said: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand" and that was literally true. Jesus sat on the throne as described in Acts 2.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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Yes, Paul was writing prior to 70 AD when Matt. 24:1-34 was happening; he was not talking about the last day. Jesus said: "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand" and that was literally true. Jesus sat on the throne as described in Acts 2.
In Matt.24. when Jesus spoke about the destruction of the temple, the disciples came to Him privately and asked Him 3 very specific questions.
1. Lord when shall these things be?
2. and what will be the signs of Your coming?
3. and of the end of the age?

Jesus answered all 3 questions in the Mt Olivet discourse. His answer embraces the whole gospel age.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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The woman is symbolic of Israel, and her seed are the believing remnant. Now please note carefully: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Yes the remnant is the apostolic church. The woman is Israel after the flesh who was given wings to fly into the wilderness and the earth came to her aid [the dyaspora]

The remnant are not the returning Jews who will be converted in the last times. We have to trace back the remnant to who they were in Elijah's day. The remnant were those who never bowed the knee or kissed baal, they stayed loyal to Jahweh throughout.

They had a purpose.

Their purpose under the ministries of Elisha and good King Jehu were turn the hearts of ALL Israel back to the Lord.

So when folks say only a remnant of the Jews will be saved they are not following good exegesis, The "only a remnant will be saved" pertains to Paul's day, he actually uses the phrase "and so at the present time only a remnant will be saved".
 
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In Matt.24. when Jesus spoke about the destruction of the temple, the disciples came to Him privately and asked Him 3 very specific questions.
1. Lord when shall these things be?
2. and what will be the signs of Your coming?
3. and of the end of the age?

Jesus answered all 3 questions in the Mt Olivet discourse. His answer embraces the whole gospel age.
After v34 there is a change from His giving the signs preceding destruction of the temple in their generation, which happened in 70 AD. At v36 the focus goes to the return of Christ for the general resurrection and judgment to where there are no signs given that allow date setting. The only thing Jesus told us is that his coming again will be similar to the days of Noah when men just lived their lives without any thought for God, merrily enjoying their earthly enjoyments. That does not give us a way think Jesus is about to return, because he can come at any time.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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there’s no pre tribulation rapture that’s been rolled over about a thousand times on this forum all It ever comes down to is people refusing to accept scripture because they already believe something.

the church in chapter 12 is seen here

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and it’s this war they and we are in

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this war

“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:11-12‬ ‭

tribulations happen in this world while we’re here it’s part of the world because it’s a dark and wicked place where Christians don’t fit in tribulations for Christians comes because

“And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:19

some people will suffer great and terrible tribulations like the early church all did being slaughtered by Rome for about three hundred years

other people suffer varying degrees of it as time rolls on there have been many many mass persecutions of Christians even today it continues people
Killed and terrorized across the globe for thier faith

this world is going to hold tribulations and trials and struggles and hardship and sorrows to Christians because e world is full Of evil and we are full of Jesus

I think of your looking for the timing of a rapture you should consider the end of the world when Jesus returns from heaven.

but honestly if you believe in a pre trib rapture that’s part of your own faith , and mine tells me there is no pre tribulation rapture. And this subject no one ever changes thier thoughts about it seems
Like so I try to avoid the subject mostly because it creates arguments and conflict

I’ve participated in a few rapture debates here so I’m sort of burned out quoting scripture about it because something about the subject seems to be solid whether one believes in a pre trib rapture or doesn’t .
You can stay (or be left) behind and "tribulate" if that is what you believe: I think God will honor your faith. However, the vast majority of the church are going to be found worthy to take God's escape plan and escape from God's wrath poured out on the earth. We can get together during the Millennial reign and talk over how each plan worked out. I agree with you here - no sense arguing about it.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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@lamad Please provide me with the scripture passage you're talking about. Thanks.
What chapter in Rev. comes between the 6th and 7th seals? It is chapter 7. I call that chapter in "intermission." Others may call it something else.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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You all said the rapture is before the Resurrection, man times over, claiming multiple Comings of the LORD.

Matthew ch24 is AFTER Tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of the Lamb
1 Thess 4:13-18 is AFTER Tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of the Lamb
2 Thess ch2 is AFTER Tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of the Lamb
1 John 2:18-19 is AFTER Tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of the Lamb
NOAH is AFTER Tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God
Daniel prophesies/visions of the Great Tribulation, lives and dies in Tribulation with the Promise of the Resurrection = Chapter 12
Job lives and dies(figuratively) in Tribulation and His Redeemer Lives and shows up at the End of his Tribulation - just as ALL Scripture proclaims.
James ch5 points to Job's suffering great tribulation BEFORE the LORD's Coming, for us to prepare for and expect.

No one can bring forth 'pre-trib rapture' from Scripture - you all had 3 months to find it and could not. We are patiently waiting.

Straight is the Path that leads to Life = Deuteronomy 4:1-2, Proverbs 30:5-6 , Revelation 22:18-19

You all that hold the error of pre-trib in your heart have erred from the Straight Path.

Everyday i open the Scripture i am richly rewarded with the Truth = without adding to God's words
The rapture IS THE RESURRECTION for the Dead in Christ. Did Paul use the word "coming" in 1 thes. 4? CHECK!

Matthew ch24 is AFTER Tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of the Lamb
Is the Lamb, "God?" Where does God's wrath start? In chapter 6. You have missed it again. Comfirmed because John wrote "wrath of the Lamb" in chapter 6.

1 Thess 4:13-18 is AFTER Tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of the Lamb
No, first Thes. 4 is BEFORE tribulation. John saw the raptured church in heaven before He started the 70th week. So you missed it again.

2 Thess ch2 is AFTER Tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of the Lamb
No, the departing must come FIRST because the Holy Spirit in the church is Who restrains the man of sin. You missed it again!

1 John 2:18-19 is AFTER Tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of the Lamb
No, the Antichrist shows up to CAUSE great tribulation. And The Day of His wrath starts before any part of "the trib." Again you miss the truth.

NOAH is AFTER Tribulation and BEFORE the wrath of God
Jesus only point in mentioning Noah was the suddenness of their destruction. Same with Lot. But as a type, Noah entered the ark before the flood. You missed it yet again.

Daniel prophesies/visions of the Great Tribulation, lives and dies in Tribulation with the Promise of the Resurrection = Chapter 12
Daniel tells us the "tribulation" or the 70th week is for HIS PEOPLE. You missed it again.

"Missing it" seems to go with your posts.
 

DavidTree

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Aug 2, 2021
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The rapture IS THE RESURRECTION for the Dead in Christ. Did Paul use the word "coming" in 1 thes. 4? CHECK!


Is the Lamb, "God?" Where does God's wrath start? In chapter 6. You have missed it again. Comfirmed because John wrote "wrath of the Lamb" in chapter 6.


No, first Thes. 4 is BEFORE tribulation. John saw the raptured church in heaven before He started the 70th week. So you missed it again.


No, the departing must come FIRST because the Holy Spirit in the church is Who restrains the man of sin. You missed it again!


No, the Antichrist shows up to CAUSE great tribulation. And The Day of His wrath starts before any part of "the trib." Again you miss the truth.


Jesus only point in mentioning Noah was the suddenness of their destruction. Same with Lot. But as a type, Noah entered the ark before the flood. You missed it yet again.

Daniel tells us the "tribulation" or the 70th week is for HIS PEOPLE. You missed it again.

"Missing it" seems to go with your posts.
Your question: " Did Paul use the word "coming" in 1 thes. 4? CHECK!

FACT CHECK - YES, the LORD, Paul, Peter, James John said we are waiting for His Coming = the Resurrection = 1 Thess, 2 Thess ,1 Cor ch15, Matt ch24, Heb 9:28, 1 John 3:1-3, Revelation and more

1 Thess 1:10 and to await His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.
1 Thess 2:19 After all who is our hope, our joy, our crown of boasting, if it is not you yourselves;
in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming?
1 Thess 3:13 that He may establish your hearts in blamelessness and holiness before our God and Father
at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all His saints. Amen
1 Thess 4:13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain
until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

How old are you? this is immature of you not to see this.
OR
maybe not immature but blinded by the idol of pre-trib - which one?
 

Mem

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Sep 23, 2014
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...and those who are alive and remain....

To say 'alive and remain' appears to be a redundancy but then Paul was speaking in context of an awareness of the proliferated number of people professing a false doctrine with contradictory logic and so must have felt the necessity of explicit detail in this particular case.
 

DavidTree

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Aug 2, 2021
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...and those who are alive and remain....

To say 'alive and remain' appears to be a redundancy but then Paul was speaking in context of an awareness of the proliferated number of people professing a false doctrine with contradictory logic and so must have felt the necessity of explicit detail in this particular case.
YES, and because of those contradictions to Truth (pre-trib) the Apostle Paul had to write a Second Letter to the Brethern at Thessolinica and to us TODAY.
2 Thess 2:1-3
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come
unless the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

AND the Apostle warned Timothy and us TODAY.

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”