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Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
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#41
What you do is RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH. Interpret it properly.

So what was Christ teaching us here? Given the fact that Enoch and Elijah had been taken up to Heaven supernaturally, it could not mean that the saints would not go to Heaven. What He meant was that His own ascension -- after His resurrection -- would be unique.

He would ascend as only God can ascend, and would be accompanied by a host of angels (called a cloud) as He returned to Heaven (from where He had come). That is why He said "even the Son of Man which is [PRESENT TENSE] in Heaven". How could the Son of Man be present on earth and in Heaven at one and the same time? Because He is God.

And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. (Lk 24:51)

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (Acts 1:9)

Did you notice how unique was the ascension of Christ? He was "carried up" to Heaven by "a cloud" of angels. This was totally unique because He is the Son of God as well as the Son of Man.
And where exactly is this place?

Hebrews 12:22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
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#42
What you do is RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH. Interpret it properly.
JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I GO UNTO HIM THAT SENT ME.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

Heres another scripture you must claim is contrary to your rapture belief and thus cant be true. I go to Him that sent me. To the Father. Heaven. Jesus said we cant go there
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
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#43
one more

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL.

No wrath for the good guys. But we are stayin right here on Gods green earth
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
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#44
JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I GO UNTO HIM THAT SENT ME.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

Heres another scripture you must claim is contrary to your rapture belief and thus cant be true. I go to Him that sent me. To the Father. Heaven. Jesus said we cant go there

W...,

At that time....was not meant for....at the time of the rapture. A total difference
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
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#45
Anyone know how many general resurrections are yet to come?
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#46
Anyone know how many general resurrections are yet to come?
Good day Wall,

Below are the listed resurrections of the dead and the living being changed and caught up:

* Jesus - the first fruits of the resurrection - 1 Cor.15:22-23

* The church - The Lord will descend to the air and all of those who have died from the on-set of the church will rise first, then those in Christ who are still alive will be transformed and caught up with them. - John 14:1-3, I Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53

* The Male child - Caught up to God and His throne in the middle of the seven years - Rev.12:5

* The two witnesses - Killed by the beast and left in the streets where they will resurrect 3 1/2 days later - Rev.11:7-12

* The great tribulation saints - Resurrected after Christ returns to the earth to end the age - Rev.20:4-6

All of the above belong to the first resurrection. Blessed are those who have part in the first resurrection, for on such the second death has no power.

There is another resurrection for the unrighteous dead which will take place at the end the millennial period, which is referred to as the great white throne judgment. This judgment will be for all those throughout history who have died without being reconciled to God, where they will be released from Hades and will stand before God where they will be held accountable for every sin they ever committed. Anyone's name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. - Rev.20:11-15
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
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#47
Anyone know how many general resurrections are yet to come?
Wall,

1 Cor 15:23-28, 23-24, Says that are only 2 resurrections.

1. #1 resurrection, Jesus.

2. #2 resurrection, The coming of Jesus for those who are His.

3. Death is destroyed, the last enemy. Rev 20:14-15

4. Jesus delivers the kingdom up to the Father.

5. Father is All in All.

====

1. The #1 resur of Jesus included all the OT saints, Noah, Able, Moses etc.. This is who is seen with Jesus in the Revelation of 96 ad. as the 144000 and the multitude that no man can count (MNMCC).

2. This resur has yet to happen. This is when Jesus comes in His glory for the kingdom, the rapture.

3.It says that after the resur/rapt that, then comes the end, when death is destroyed. This event is clearly seen in Rev 20:14-15, as taking place after the final judgment and after heaven and earth have flown away.

When it says the end, it is meaning the end of the resurrections.

This passage shows only 2 resurrections. The attempt to expand the number of resurrections into a number like 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or more is completely contrary to what Paul plainly says.

When the Revelation is read, instead of identifying a resurrection that is shown, as the #1 or #2 resurrection, they say "oh, here, this is showing another resurrection, so that makes 7 resurrections." They think that every time that they see a resurrection, that it is an additional resurrection.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,623
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#48
Anyone know how many general resurrections are yet to come?
Just two general resurrections. One for the righteous, and the other for the unrighteous.

However the "first resurrection" has three phases, and the middle phase is the general resurrection of the saints.

The resurrection of Christ was "phase I" and the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints will be "phase III."
 

Wall

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2013
1,417
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#49
Just two general resurrections.
Yup. Most believe there are 2.

1THES.4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST:[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

When 1Thes.4 takes place, what really happens? The rapturist would have you to believe we fly off to heaven. What do the scriptures say? Keep in mind that many Rapturist claim youll find nothing of the so called rapture in the book of the prophets {the old testament} but.... Surely thats not true

AMOS 3 [7] Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

EZEK.37
[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, and bring you into the land of Israel.
[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Theres THE DEAD IN CHRIST who rise first (1Thes.4). The first resurrection. But..... there not headin for heaven.

[21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

Its the gathering of Gods people, THOSE WHO ARE ALIVE AT HIS COMING. The gathering will be done in the twinkling of an eye. Not by public transit. And were all headin for the land of Israel as promised in the Word.

[24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
[25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

There are many that claim that this scripture is speaking about Isreal becoming a nation in 1948. Not so. They do not have one Shepherd over them. Nor is Christs tabernacle in their midst.

[26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will SET MY SANCTUARY IN THE MIDST OF THEM FOR EVERMORE. [27] MY TABERNACLE ALSO SHALL BE WITH THEM: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Verses 26 and 27. “And so shall we ever be with the Lord” {1Thes.4 v17}. Its quite obvious that 1Thes.4 and Ezek.37 are speaking of the same event. No so called rapture. But the gathering of Gods people to the kingdom
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
#50
OK. What about all those Rapturist that say we are going to heaven. Where do you find that in scripture?
Good day Wall,

"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. " - John 14:1-3

The scripture above basically says that there are many rooms in His Father's house, which could only mean heaven. He continues saying that He is going there (heaven) in the Father's house, to prepare places for all believers. Then the Lord says that He will come back and take us to where He is, which again would be in the Father's house in heaven, so that where He is we may be also. 1 Thes.4:16-17 and 1 Cor. 15:51-53 is the fulfillment of John 14:1-3
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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#51
The term "sleep" is only referring to the body and not the spirit. At the time of death for the believer, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of Christ, while the body is buried and decays. It is the body that is sleeping. In support of this we have a lot of scripture which demonstrates the conscious awareness of the spirit after death.
The body of death that returns to the dust? That body?

The sleep is in respect to the new spirit that will never die. (no death) And not these bodies of death . The new incorruptible bodies they will be given on the last day, the second resurrection the day, the new heavens and earth arrive .

When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother. Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,” Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep. They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat.

The scripture above states that the girls spirit returned to her body, which would demonstrate that it had left at the time of death. It was her body that was asleep. In addition, we have the event of the rich man and Lazarus of whom the scripture states that both died, and yet their spirits were found under the earth in Sheol/Hades.
Interesting parables

These bodies of death will return to the lifeless spiritless dust they were formed of. If a person does no know Christ their temporally spirit will return to the father who gave it for 70 years or so. They will never rise to new spirit life or receive a new body

She could of not been truly dead without any spirit life but dead asleep as was Lazarus. Jesus did not lie when he said; she is not dead.

Teaching out of body experiences is not a teaching found in scripture. No such thing as suspended animation or reincarnation. Christ gave the wakeup call. Lazarus rise, and my child get up to her.

When Christ began his ministry, he experienced what some today call out of the body experience but he never moved once inch from where he stood.

The father of lies brought in a lying sign and wonder. Each time again and again to make sure we understand he would say again as it is written. It is the only source of faith by which we can believe God not seen.

The rich man who was/is in torment was having a conversation with Abraham and had all of his senses, as he could see, was thirsty and could feel pain. If you discount the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, all you are doing is getting rid of the proof.
Getting rid of what proof, the proof that we walk by faith the unseen and not by sight after that seen?
The rich man who was in a living hell having all his fleshly senses called on Abraham and not God. It was a usual practice of those who looked to the deceased, as workers with familiar spirits, called necromancy..... Seeking after a multitude of lying spirits called Legion(many). Rachel in the Old testament practiced that false form of worship just as the Catholic today using what they call patron saints
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#52
For those of you who think we go to heaven at the rapture event...

JOHN 3 [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

What do you do with scripture above?
The first rapture is in respect to the old Testament Saints who were told of the suffering of Christ beforehand and the glory that followed it was still pending until the time of reformation had come. It was signaled by the renting of the vail, as the glory that did follow the first resurrection, the same resurrection all saints enter up until the last day, when those asleep in heaven and those here on earth, reigning as kings (kingdom of priest) offering the gospel. They on the last day both will rise together and be given their new incorruptible bodies.. again on the last day .

When Christ said it is finished the graves of the Old testament saints were opened they entered the New Jerusalem as the chaste virgin bride of Christ

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:11

Again, the revealing of that glory, the opening of the graves witnessed by many angels in heaven as those saints who were waiting in according to His promise he would open their graves, some sort of holding pen for the time of reformation.

Ezekiel 37:13And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,


Matthew 27:52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

No graves for the new testament saints to be absent from these bodies of death is to be present sleeping in the new heavens and earth
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
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#53
HOME. Our eternal home. Where those mansions have been prepared for us. More precisely, the New Jerusalem.

HEBREWS 12

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Note that the scripture above disagrees with Nehemiah6. You might try a modern corrupt bible to find agreement with the false hope of rapture.

You see folks, the scripture says, Ye are come unto mount Sion”
The scripture doesn’t say he will come to mount Sion when Jesus returns.

The rapture lovers want you to believe your going to a party in heaven while saints suffer persecution on earth. That’s the kind of hope they must for.

When the saints rise to meet Jesus in the air they will be joining the army of the Lord in full battle muster. If that scares you then, unlike the saints of a God, you should prepare to fall away into the comfy churches the spirit of antichrist has been preparing for you.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
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#55
You mean you want to see the word "heaven" otherwise you won't believe it?
Why are you pretending to be shocked? So phony.

You are one that argued that if the word “church” isn’t used in certain parts of the book of Revelation, then you want folks to believe that the hedonistic notion of rapture of the church has already occurred.

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold,
there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
(2 Kings 2:11).

So if Elijah went up to Heaven, and the New Jerusalem is in Heaven, what makes you think Christians will not go to Heaven?
Note that the heaven Elijah went up into is not capitalized.
See how Nehemiah6 capitalized “heaven” to try and sell his philosophy?

Let’s be truthful readers. None of us know where Elijah went or where he is today. But you do know he isn’t a flesh and blood man living in Heaven where the most high throne of God is.

The doctrine of rapture of the church is satanic. The rapture expresses the sensual desire many carnal people hold dear today in the hope they never have to suffer tribulation with Jesus.
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
887
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#56
Yes, but that is not enough for our skeptic. He wants to see the word "heaven" in that passage.
Again you present your own kind of reasoning as if it’s specious.
 
Feb 7, 2017
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#57
Where does scripture say we are going after we are changed in the twinkling of an eye?
  • "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1Thess 4.16,17).
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#58
The doctrine of rapture of the church is satanic. The rapture expresses the sensual desire many carnal people hold dear today in the hope they never have to suffer tribulation with Jesus.
No. The doctrine of the Rapture is NOT Satanic, therefore your attack on the Rapture is Satanic. "Sensual desire" and "carnal people" is also an attack on Christians who are children of God.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#59
Heaven isn’t a city.
But the New Jerusalem is a city and it is in Heaven. And since God, Christ, all the holy angels, and all the saints who have passed on are in the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24), you could say that the New Jerusalem is interchangeable with Heaven.

Furthermore, your statement about Elijah not being in Heaven -- in spite of the fact that Scripture says that he was taken to Heaven -- means that you are prepared to twist Scripture to suit your own ideas. That is a serious offence.
 

DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
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#60
OK. What about all those Rapturist that say we are going to heaven. Where do you find that in scripture?
You will not find that any where in all of Scriptures. That we go to Heaven is a teaching of men not from Scriptures. When the Saints are Raptured up to be with Jesus where He is, is to the Holy New City Jerusalem, which will be ON EARTH when He returns the second time. When Christ returns to the Earth the second time, He is going to bring that place that He is preparing for us, that Holy City. When Jesus returns to the Earth He will have with Him the Holy City Jerusalem. When He gets to the Earth at the 7th Trumpet sounding, He will go around the Earth and gather up all those Saints that have died, then Jesus will go around the Earth again, and take up all the living Saints. At that time All Saints will participate in the Marriage Supper of the Lord in the Holy City Jerusalem that will be ON EARTH over where Jerusalem is now. Zechariah Chapter 14 is a description of the Holy City being Here on Earth during a time that sinners and Heathens are still present on the Earth, a time that Jesus will set up His Kingdom ON EARTH and make all the heathens of all the nations of the world come up year to year to worship Him, He and us Saints will rule over the Heathens with a rod of iron.

NOWHERE does it say when the Saints are Raptured up with Christ that we go to Heaven. That is a doctrine of men.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave