Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

[PlainWord]

An inward born again Jew is no different that a inward born again Gentile .God put no difference between the two purifying both by a work of His faith in every generation of mankind. One bride the church made up of all the nations of the world

Couldn't agree more.

Abraham a befitting name. meaning "The father of a multitude of nations" or denominations not just the nation of outward Jews. If that was the case he would of not given Abram a new born again name. Abram exalted one father of one family as a nation

and I'm fine with this.

The covenant was broken with mankind in whom the outward Jew represents.

Not sure I'm with you on this. There was a specific covenant which God made with Israel, which they broke. We aren't talking about any pre-flood covenant, are we? The covenant the Lord made with Israel during the time of Moses was clearly broken. Look at the consequences for breaking the covenant in Lev 26:

15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant,
16 I also will do this to you:
I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.
And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. The temple that sat in the holy place the unseen stood as a abomination of desolation.it was destroyed when Christ said" it was finished" .It lost its usefulness as a parable when the veil was rent, the earthquake came opening the resurrection gates in the city Christ prepared as His bride.
17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies.
Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you.
18 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 I will break the pride of your power;
I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze.
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain;
for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit.
21 ‘Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number;
and your highways shall be desolate.
23 ‘And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me,
24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword against you that will execute the vengeance of the covenant;
when you are gathered together within your cities I will send pestilence among you;
and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.

Notice the 7 plagues mentioned above? The 7 bowls represent 7 of the Egyptian plagues that were poured out on Israel during their war with Rome.

The temple that sat in the holy place the unseen stood as a abomination of desolation.it was destroyed when Christ said" it was finished" .It lost its usefulness as a parable when the veil was rent, the earthquake came opening the resurrection gates in the city Christ prepared as His bride.

"The unseen?" What the heck is that??? I thought the holy place was in the temple, not the other way around. No, the temple itself was not the abomination of desolation. Jews saw the temple every day. They would be fleeing every time they saw it. It was massive and would be really hard to miss no matter where you lived in and around Jerusalem.

 

[Guojing]

Yes, they asked the question and He did not correct them re the restoration of the kingdom to Israel in this passage. But He addresses this issue in other passages such as Mat 21:43.

“Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.

This theme of "trees" and "bearing fruits" is a well-taught concept. Since temporal Israel of the first century was to lose the kingdom due to it rejecting their Messiah, what or who was the nation it was given to???? What was the "nation" which bore the fruits of the Kingdom after Israel's destruction in 70 AD? Hint: It isn't nation as in country.

The point you are not getting is that it was the final question the 11 asked of Jesus before they will never see him again.

Surely if you are going to be asking God that final question, it must be the question that you regard as the most crucial of all.

And they chose that question. Now if Jesus did addressed this issue before during the 4 Gospels like you claimed, they will be silly to be asking that same question again, and Jesus would have reminded them that he has already addressed it.

But none of that took place. I am telling you that how you understand the Kingdom of God is not how Jesus and the 11 understood it.

But if you don't want to accept that because it goes against your pre-existing doctrine, I cannot force you to do so.

 

[Guojing]

I understand your unbiblical view..you're simply trying to get around what I Cor 15 teaches.

Notice none of the 11 was actually thinking about 1 Cor 15 when they were considering what the final question they should be asking of their Lord?

Imagine if they had asked, "Lord, are we now completely saved because we believe in your death burial and resurrection to justify us from all our sins?" (1 Cor 15)

Instead, they asked a question that is focused only on Israel, and was not even thinking about Gentiles for that matter. So much for the popular doctrine that the grace dispensation began at Acts 2, or that Peter was preaching the same gospel as Paul did.

 

[garee]

Couldn't agree more.



and I'm fine with this.



Not sure I'm with you on this. There was a specific covenant which God made with Israel, which they broke. We aren't talking about any pre-flood covenant, are we? The covenant the Lord made with Israel during the time of Moses was clearly broken. Look at the consequences for breaking the covenant in Lev 26:

15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant,
16 I also will do this to you:
I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.
And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. The temple that sat in the holy place the unseen stood as a abomination of desolation.it was destroyed when Christ said" it was finished" .It lost its usefulness as a parable when the veil was rent, the earthquake came opening the resurrection gates in the city Christ prepared as His bride.
17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies.
Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you.
18 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 I will break the pride of your power;
I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze.
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain;
for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit.
21 ‘Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number;
and your highways shall be desolate.
23 ‘And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me,
24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword against you that will execute the vengeance of the covenant;
when you are gathered together within your cities I will send pestilence among you;
and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.

Notice the 7 plagues mentioned above? The 7 bowls represent 7 of the Egyptian plagues that were poured out on Israel during their war with Rome.



"The unseen?" What the heck is that??? I thought the holy place was in the temple, not the other way around. No, the temple itself was not the abomination of desolation. Jews saw the temple every day. They would be fleeing every time they saw it. It was massive and would be really hard to miss no matter where you lived in and around Jerusalem.

There was a specific covenant which God made with Israel, which they broke. But what Israel? All Israel is not Israel . The covenant with the born again Israel cannot be broken it is not founded on the things seen. But is on the spiritual seed (one) Christ. Israel as seeds of man (many)is used to represent mankind. Those born again and those who have do not the born again Spirit of Christ .

Violating the law of God that is subject to the flesh and blood of one nation is subject to all . To make desolate is to take away the faith principle reserved for the unseen glory of the father and the placing a image in its place. Invisible God is not a man as us.

That work of the unseen destroying the images that are in the place of the true God a abomination of desolation is shown with King Josiah . Reading the words of the book moved him to destroy the abomination of desolation. Therefore God not seen taking his proper place of faith

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the

Remember Jesus said of His own corrupted flesh it profits for nothing. We simply do not know Christ after the rudiments of this world to include flesh and blood.

The wage is the same for a outward Jew just as for a outward gentile. God is no respecter of the flesh of any nation.

The temple was a shadow of the Holy Place not seen. Never the true not seen It was used as a parable for the time then present up until the 1st century reformation. God had temporally gave the Jews over to do that which they should not of. Set up a Pagan foundation because of their jealousy of the pagan nations that surrounded them. A abomination of desolation, Humans standing in the place of faith.

 

[garee]

Notice none of the 11 was actually thinking about 1 Cor 15 when they were considering what the final question they should be asking of their Lord?

Imagine if they had asked, "Lord, are we now completely saved because we believe in your death burial and resurrection to justify us from all our sins?" (1 Cor 15)

Instead, they asked a question that is focused only on Israel, and was not even thinking about Gentiles for that matter. So much for the popular doctrine that the grace dispensation began at Acts 2, or that Peter was preaching the same gospel as Paul did.

Instead, they asked a question that is focused only on Israel. Which Isreal ? Those born again having the Spirit of Christ or the Israel as a outward Jew not converted in the same standing as a gentile .Jesus said; "Marvel not a person must be born again"

Only if the incorruptible seed by which mankind is born again has a effect on the believer can they be the true .her named was changed by God in Acts to the new final name Christian. . ."residents as the bride of the city of Christ the church' Named after her husband Christ.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

[Guojing]

Instead, they asked a question that is focused only on Israel. Which Isreal ? Those born again having the Spirit of Christ or the Israel as a outward Jew not converted in the same standing as a gentile .Jesus said; "Marvel not a person must be born again"

Only if the incorruptible seed by which mankind is born again has a effect on the believer can they be the true .her named was changed by God in Acts to the new final name Christian. . ."residents as the bride of the city of Christ the church' Named after her husband Christ.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

The nation of Israel

 

[PlainWord]

There was a specific covenant which God made with Israel, which they broke. But what Israel? All Israel is not Israel . The covenant with the born again Israel cannot be broken it is not founded on the things seen. But is on the spiritual seed (one) Christ. Israel as seeds of man (many)is used to represent mankind. Those born again and those who have do not the born again Spirit of Christ .

Violating the law of God that is subject to the flesh and blood of one nation is subject to all . To make desolate is to take away the faith principle reserved for the unseen glory of the father and the placing a image in its place. Invisible God is not a man as us.

That work of the unseen destroying the images that are in the place of the true God a abomination of desolation is shown with King Josiah . Reading the words of the book moved him to destroy the abomination of desolation. Therefore God not seen taking his proper place of faith

2 Kings 23:24 Moreover the workers with familiar spirits, and the wizards, and the images, and the idols, and all the abominations that were spied in the land of Judah and in Jerusalem, did Josiah put away, that he might perform the words of the law which were written in the book that Hilkiah the priest found in the

Remember Jesus said of His own corrupted flesh it profits for nothing. We simply do not know Christ after the rudiments of this world to include flesh and blood.

The wage is the same for a outward Jew just as for a outward gentile. God is no respecter of the flesh of any nation.

The temple was a shadow of the Holy Place not seen. Never the true not seen It was used as a parable for the time then present up until the 1st century reformation. God had temporally gave the Jews over to do that which they should not of. Set up a Pagan foundation because of their jealousy of the pagan nations that surrounded them. A abomination of desolation, Humans standing in the place of faith.

Sorry, but your arguments are a bit incoherent to me. In plain terms, Israel from Moses on, received the Law. They as a nation alone were called out from the other nations as God's chosen people, set apart as a witness of God. In other words, they were to be an example to all nations. When obedient, they were blessed above all nations such as the case was under King David when Israel was the most powerful nation on Earth. When they were disobedient and went after foreign gods, they were punished (often with God using foreign powers) such as they were by the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Greeks then finally the Romans. The punishment was also an example to the world.

The abomination (which causes) desolation AKA, "the abomination of desolation" is an unholy, unclean thing placed in the Temple of God by a foreign heathen leader. There are many things which were abominable under Jewish law back then. But not all of these abominable things caused the country to become desolate (deserted). The abomination of desolation, abomination that makes desolate, or desolating sacrilege (Hebrew: הַשִּׁקּוּץ מְשׁוֹמֵֽם, ha-shikkuts meshomem, Latin: abominatio desolationis) is a term found in the Book of Daniel and the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, which means literally "an abomination that desolates" or "an abomination that depopulates".

The first abomination of desolation happened with Antiochus in 168 BC in fulfillment of Dan 11. 1 Maccabees uses of the term pointing to an event in the prophecy given by Daniel, in the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the mid-2nd century BC. Specifically, he set up an altar, probably to Zeus or Baal Shamem, in the Second Temple in Jerusalem and sacrificed swine on it around the year 168/167 BC.

The book of 1 Maccabees gives us details: "Antiochus now issued a decree that all nations in his empire should abandon their own customs and become one people. All the Gentiles and even many of the Israelites submitted to this decree. They adopted the official pagan religion, offered sacrifices to idols, and no longer observed the Sabbath.

"The king also sent messengers with a decree to Jerusalem and all the towns of Judea, ordering the people to follow customs that were foreign to the country. He ordered them not to offer burnt offerings, grain offerings, or wine offerings in the Temple, and commanded them to treat Sabbaths and festivals as ordinary work days.

"They were even ordered to defile the Temple and the holy things in it. They were commanded to build pagan altars, temples, and shrines, and to sacrifice pigs and other unclean animals there. They were forbidden to circumcise their sons and were required to make themselves…unclean in every way they could, so that they would forget the Law which the Lord had given through Moses and would disobey all its commands. The penalty for disobeying the king's decree was death" (1 Maccabees 1:41-50, Today's English Version).

Then it happened: "On the fifteenth day of the month Kislev in the year 145" (verse 54, TEV), which corresponds to 168/167 B.C., "they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar" of the temple (verse 54, KJV). This appears to have been a pagan altar, probably with an image representing the Greek chief god Zeus, as 2 Maccabees 6:2 tells us that Antiochus defiled the Jewish temple "by dedicating it to the Olympian god Zeus"

The second A of D predicted by Jesus (Dan 9&12) likely occurred early in the Jewish revolt in 66 AD. Many Preterists point to the worship of Titus and the sacrifices made to his pagan ensigns as the A of D but the timing of 70 AD isn't right. I think it happened earlier when Governor of the Roman province of Syria, Cestius Gallus, counter attacked and slaughtered 3,000 on the temple mount. More on this later...

 

[PlainWord]

The point you are not getting is that it was the final question the 11 asked of Jesus before they will never see him again.

Surely if you are going to be asking God that final question, it must be the question that you regard as the most crucial of all.

And they chose that question. Now if Jesus did addressed this issue before during the 4 Gospels like you claimed, they will be silly to be asking that same question again, and Jesus would have reminded them that he has already addressed it.

But none of that took place. I am telling you that how you understand the Kingdom of God is not how Jesus and the 11 understood it.

But if you don't want to accept that because it goes against your pre-existing doctrine, I cannot force you to do so.

Correct, that was a very important question and they still did not fully get it.

The "Kingdom of God" AKA "Kingdom of Heaven" were difficult concepts back then and even to this day. There are many believers among us still waiting for it to arrive or for us to be taken to it. Many Jews back then, apparently even some of His disciples, still did not grasp the concept. It's hard to erase hundreds of years worth of beliefs. The unbelieving Jews were expecting a Messiah to come and rid them of Roman oppression and thus "SAVE" them that way and restore to them the glory days such as they had under King David and Solomon. But that wasn't the type of salvation their Messiah was offering. They didn't get it like many among us STILL don't get it.

The "Kingdom" was not to be a visible thing. It's arrival came without observation. The Kingdom has nothing to do with things of our world such as nations, cities, temples, buildings, rulers, etc. It has nothing to do with Jesus returning to rule in some visible temple!!!

You forget that the disciples struggled with several things. Jesus frequently spoke in parables, not always to make it easier for His audience to understand, but rather to make it harder for some (Mat 13:13). As we see from John 16, they still were not understanding things relative to the near future departure, and 40-year later, return of Christ's presence:

16 “A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.”

17 Then some of His disciples said among themselves, “What is this that He says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’; and, ‘because I go to the Father’?” 18 They said therefore, “What is this that He says, ‘A little while’? We do not know what He is saying.”

You see, they still did not get it!! skipping ahead:

25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.

I submit, this issue was still very much unclear to them and this is why they asked about it in Acts 1.

So what was/is the Kingdom of God?? Don't you know???? The answer is found in Luke 17:21. It is the indwelling of God, Jesus and the HS within us, whether we are alive or have passed. Think of it as the "power" in Star Wars. But for us this "power" is FAITH!! Faith is everything to us. Faith is invisible. Faith is key to salvation, not just for us after Christ but for those before Christ such as Abel, Enoch, and Noah as the writer of Hebrews used as examples.

Heb 11: 1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Those still waiting for Christ to come and establish a visible kingdom on Earth missed the point completely and this is why their eschatology is so far off. I feel sorry for those.

 

[PlainWord]

Correct, that was a very important question and they still did not fully get it.

The "Kingdom of God" AKA "Kingdom of Heaven" were difficult concepts back then and even to this day. There are many believers among us still waiting for it to arrive or for us to be taken to it. Many Jews back then, apparently even some of His disciples, still did not grasp the concept. It's hard to erase hundreds of years worth of beliefs. The unbelieving Jews were expecting a Messiah to come and rid them of Roman oppression and thus "SAVE" them that way and restore to them the glory days such as they had under King David and Solomon. But that wasn't the type of salvation their Messiah was offering. They didn't get it like many among us STILL don't get it.

The "Kingdom" was not to be a visible thing. It's arrival came without observation. The Kingdom has nothing to do with things of our world such as nations, cities, temples, buildings, rulers, etc. It has nothing to do with Jesus returning to rule in some visible temple!!!

You forget that the disciples struggled with several things. Jesus frequently spoke in parables, not always to make it easier for His audience to understand, but rather to make it harder for some (Mat 13:13). As we see from John 16, they still were not understanding things relative to the near future departure, and 40-year later, return of Christ's presence:

16 “A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.”

17 Then some of His disciples said among themselves, “What is this that He says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’; and, ‘because I go to the Father’?” 18 They said therefore, “What is this that He says, ‘A little while’? We do not know what He is saying.”

You see, they still did not get it!! skipping ahead:

25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.

I submit, this issue was still very much unclear to them and this is why they asked about it in Acts 1.

So what was/is the Kingdom of God?? Don't you know???? The answer is found in Luke 17:21. It is the indwelling of God, Jesus and the HS within us, whether we are alive or have passed. Think of it as the "power" in Star Wars. But for us this "power" is FAITH!! Faith is everything to us. Faith is invisible. Faith is key to salvation, not just for us after Christ but for those before Christ such as Abel, Enoch, and Noah as the writer of Hebrews used as examples.

Heb 11: 1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Those still waiting for Christ to come and establish a visible kingdom on Earth missed the point completely and this is why their eschatology is so far off. I feel sorry for those.

Sorry, meant to say, "Force" in Star Wars, not power. I'm not a huge Star Wars fan.

Heb 11: 1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Think about this. THIS is the Kingdom of God.

 

[Guojing]

Correct, that was a very important question and they still did not fully get it.

The "Kingdom of God" AKA "Kingdom of Heaven" were difficult concepts back then and even to this day. There are many believers among us still waiting for it to arrive or for us to be taken to it. Many Jews back then, apparently even some of His disciples, still did not grasp the concept. It's hard to erase hundreds of years worth of beliefs. The unbelieving Jews were expecting a Messiah to come and rid them of Roman oppression and thus "SAVE" them that way and restore to them the glory days such as they had under King David and Solomon. But that wasn't the type of salvation their Messiah was offering. They didn't get it like many among us STILL don't get it.

The "Kingdom" was not to be a visible thing. It's arrival came without observation. The Kingdom has nothing to do with things of our world such as nations, cities, temples, buildings, rulers, etc. It has nothing to do with Jesus returning to rule in some visible temple!!!

You forget that the disciples struggled with several things. Jesus frequently spoke in parables, not always to make it easier for His audience to understand, but rather to make it harder for some (Mat 13:13). As we see from John 16, they still were not understanding things relative to the near future departure, and 40-year later, return of Christ's presence:

16 “A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father.”

17 Then some of His disciples said among themselves, “What is this that He says to us, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’; and, ‘because I go to the Father’?” 18 They said therefore, “What is this that He says, ‘A little while’? We do not know what He is saying.”

You see, they still did not get it!! skipping ahead:

25 “These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.

I submit, this issue was still very much unclear to them and this is why they asked about it in Acts 1.

So what was/is the Kingdom of God?? Don't you know???? The answer is found in Luke 17:21. It is the indwelling of God, Jesus and the HS within us, whether we are alive or have passed. Think of it as the "power" in Star Wars. But for us this "power" is FAITH!! Faith is everything to us. Faith is invisible. Faith is key to salvation, not just for us after Christ but for those before Christ such as Abel, Enoch, and Noah as the writer of Hebrews used as examples.

Heb 11: 1: Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony. 3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Those still waiting for Christ to come and establish a visible kingdom on Earth missed the point completely and this is why their eschatology is so far off. I feel sorry for those.

Peter and the others spent about 40 days with the resurrected Christ learning about the kingdom of God. (Acts 1:3)

I would trust their understanding of that Kingdom more than you, a third party here.

 

[PlainWord]

Sorry, meant to say, "Force" in Star Wars, not power. I'm not a huge Star Wars fan.

Peter and the others spent about 40 days with the resurrected Christ learning about the kingdom of God. (Acts 1:3)

I would trust their understanding of that Kingdom more than you, a third party here.

And what do you see as "their understanding?" They were still asking if the kingdom would be restored to Israel? Clearly, they still did not know. They learned later at Pentecost.

 

[Guojing]

And what do you see as "their understanding?" They were still asking if the kingdom would be restored to Israel? Clearly, they still did not know. They learned later at Pentecost.

Peter, who was full of the Holy Spirit after Pentecost, offered the physical return of Jesus if the Jewish nation will accept Jesus as their promised Messiah. In Acts 3

17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you

I don't understand why it is so difficult for you to accept yourself as a third party. You weren't physically present with the resurrected Christ when he was teaching the 11 about the Kingdom of God. What makes you confident that you understood more than those 11 about the contents of that preaching?

 

[PlainWord]

Peter, who was full of the Holy Spirit after Pentecost, offered the physical return of Jesus if the Jewish nation will accept Jesus as their promised Messiah. In Acts 3

17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.

18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you

I don't understand why it is so difficult for you to accept yourself as a third party. You weren't physically present with the resurrected Christ when he was teaching the 11 about the Kingdom of God. What makes you confident that you understood more than those 11 about the contents of that preaching?

I understand it better than they because they didn't have the benefit of history to study as we do. They were in 30-33 AD, prior to the Kingdom which came around 66-70 AD. They were in the generation that would witness all these things come to pass but these things hadn't happened yet at the time of Christ's ascension or even at Pentecost. Let's look at Luke 21:

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people... 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.

We know that Jerusalem was first surrounded in late 66 AD by Cestius Gallus, Governor of Syria. But he left without any rational reason. Titus arrives in early 70 AD. Thus this is the time frame for the establishment of the Kingdom, not some time in our future.

 

[PlainWord]

Peter and the others spent about 40 days with the resurrected Christ learning about the kingdom of God. (Acts 1:3)

I would trust their understanding of that Kingdom more than you, a third party here.

It's all about the end of the age. When was the end of the age? I submit it was around 68-70 AD and coincided with the passing of the Law. The age, was AKA, the Mosaic Age. There can be no doubt that the Law passed and the temple which was the symbol and necessary component of the Law passed in 70 AD. The need for animal sacrifices for remission of sins has been replaced by direct prayer and repentance. What a HUGE change. The other HUGE change was that during the Law, when people died, they rested or "slept" in Hades. Christ freed them when His presence returned around 66-70 AD. He took the saints to heaven. Now when we die, we go straight to heaven. We don't have to sleep first as Paul taught. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."

We have direct evidence that the end of the age was happening by historian Josephus who writes:

But as for that house, God had, for certain, long ago doomed it to the fire; and now that fatal day was come, according to the revolution of ages;

We have been in a new age for about 1,950 years.

 

[garee]

Sorry, but your arguments are a bit incoherent to me. In plain terms, Israel from Moses on, received the Law. They as a nation alone were called out from the other nations as God's chosen people, set apart as a witness of God. In other words, they were to be an example to all nations. When obedient, they were blessed above all nations such as the case was under King David when Israel was the most powerful nation on Earth. When they were disobedient and went after foreign gods, they were punished (often with God using foreign powers) such as they were by the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Greeks then finally the Romans. The punishment was also an example to the world.

The abomination (which causes) desolation AKA, "the abomination of desolation" is an unholy, unclean thing placed in the Temple of God by a foreign heathen leader. There are many things which were abominable under Jewish law back then. But not all of these abominable things caused the country to become desolate (deserted). The abomination of desolation, abomination that makes desolate, or desolating sacrilege (Hebrew: הַשִּׁקּוּץ מְשׁוֹמֵֽם, ha-shikkuts meshomem, Latin: abominatio desolationis) is a term found in the Book of Daniel and the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, which means literally "an abomination that desolates" or "an abomination that depopulates".

The first abomination of desolation happened with Antiochus in 168 BC in fulfillment of Dan 11. 1 Maccabees uses of the term pointing to an event in the prophecy given by Daniel, in the actions of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in the mid-2nd century BC. Specifically, he set up an altar, probably to Zeus or Baal Shamem, in the Second Temple in Jerusalem and sacrificed swine on it around the year 168/167 BC.

The book of 1 Maccabees gives us details: "Antiochus now issued a decree that all nations in his empire should abandon their own customs and become one people. All the Gentiles and even many of the Israelites submitted to this decree. They adopted the official pagan religion, offered sacrifices to idols, and no longer observed the Sabbath.

"The king also sent messengers with a decree to Jerusalem and all the towns of Judea, ordering the people to follow customs that were foreign to the country. He ordered them not to offer burnt offerings, grain offerings, or wine offerings in the Temple, and commanded them to treat Sabbaths and festivals as ordinary work days.

"They were even ordered to defile the Temple and the holy things in it. They were commanded to build pagan altars, temples, and shrines, and to sacrifice pigs and other unclean animals there. They were forbidden to circumcise their sons and were required to make themselves…unclean in every way they could, so that they would forget the Law which the Lord had given through Moses and would disobey all its commands. The penalty for disobeying the king's decree was death" (1 Maccabees 1:41-50, Today's English Version).

Then it happened: "On the fifteenth day of the month Kislev in the year 145" (verse 54, TEV), which corresponds to 168/167 B.C., "they set up the abomination of desolation upon the altar" of the temple (verse 54, KJV). This appears to have been a pagan altar, probably with an image representing the Greek chief god Zeus, as 2 Maccabees 6:2 tells us that Antiochus defiled the Jewish temple "by dedicating it to the Olympian god Zeus"

The second A of D predicted by Jesus (Dan 9&12) likely occurred early in the Jewish revolt in 66 AD. Many Preterists point to the worship of Titus and the sacrifices made to his pagan ensigns as the A of D but the timing of 70 AD isn't right. I think it happened earlier when Governor of the Roman province of Syria, Cestius Gallus, counter attacked and slaughtered 3,000 on the temple mount. More on this later...

I would agree some what. But it seems you are adding the "witness of men" as events that happened after the word of God's law was complete. Oral traditions could be accurate .But they must be tested according to the letter of the laws the scriptures. Beyond that we can speculate but have no witness of God. Its when we rightly divide having the whole like in Acts, The noble Bereans as a kingdom of priest who heard the word of God spoken of by Paul and were moved daily to see if things were so. In that way the Holy Spirit does the approving.

Moses represented God not seen the Law giver . They as a nation alone were called out from the other nations (Amorites and Hittites) as God's chosen people having it in respect to Abraham, a word typifying our father in heaven, as the Holy Father of all nations.. . called denominations. Set apart as a witness of God.

As his bride he named them Israel to denote newly empowered by the Holy Spirit creatures . . Converted mankind that wrestles with flesh and blood and because one does have the Spirit of Christ they can over come the things of this world (described in the name as those with power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.). A chosen people they were no longer typified as Jacob the deceiver as one that does wrestle with flesh and blood grabbing the heel of his brother Esau , the first born . You could say it was Jacobs new born again name gave him a limp to remind who pined who.

In the new testament in Acts he renamed his bride that was called born again Israel. . The last time A new name befitting for the residents of the new city prepared as his bride. Christian .A word when defined and no other meaning added that means residents of a city named after its founder Christ.

I would think defining words is part of rightly dividing. we must be careful on how we hear what the Spirit e says to us. We are warned in Deuteronomy not to add to a word singular (new meaning) it can change the authors intend . In that way I believe God protects the integrity of the whole or perfect as the one author.

Genesis 32:27-29 King James Version (KJV) And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.

The abomination of desolation revealed by the wrath of God not to place the things seen corruptible mankind in the holy unseen place that hides the glory of God . the place as to the once source of faith as it is written .

Jesus refused to stand in that place reserved for the unseen Good Master. The place as mutual unseen work of both the Father and the Son.

The temporal that was used for forty years was to be retired serving its wilderness purpose as a kingdom of priest from a foreign land as ambassadors . The faithless Jew to represent unbelief in Mankind simply wanted their own built with human hands like the surrounding pagan nation . They had become jealous. God gave them over to do that which they should not of . . . used it as a parable for that time period. . . until the time of reformation .The period we are in no outward representative.

Continued...

 

[garee]

In the end of the matter In the last days God has spoken to us through his Son you could say as a living parable . Like when Jesus was offered food .he said he was not hungry he had meat do the will of another that they knew not of.

Mathew 24 is no different .set aside as a parable. Hiding the gospel understanding with the literal (mixing faith) .

Having just departed from the temple it was if they disciples questioned his ability to see, like perhaps he did not see the glory.

Invited him in for open your eyes, another look, which he refused as a lovingly rebuke against them .

Rather Jesus said to them in effect using lively stones that make up the spiritual house of God not seen not one stone would stand in the holy place unseen. They all fell when Jesus said it is finished . Literal stones are still used today as a abomination of desolation making the unseen source of faith desolate. The same wall that men cry out to.

When having been moved to the highest surrounding mountain, the mount of Olives. It was used to signify all the kingdoms as denomination of the world in the new order. . Then apart from the temple they asked him the sign as to the day and hour. None was given other than the normal on goings like in the days of Noah . . signs of the times under the Sun

In that way without parables showing the work of the father and the Son, Christ spoke not through the Son of man.

Matthew 24 King James Version (KJV) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

last portion above ,,, And of the sign (singular) as the end of the world? not signs (.last day, Amil) )

No sign as a wonder was given. The last the sign of Jonas as a shadow was fulfilled with the Son of man Jesus.

 

[Guojing]

I understand it better than they because they didn't have the benefit of history to study as we do. They were in 30-33 AD, prior to the Kingdom which came around 66-70 AD. They were in the generation that would witness all these things come to pass but these things hadn't happened yet at the time of Christ's ascension or even at Pentecost. Let's look at Luke 21:

20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people... 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.

We know that Jerusalem was first surrounded in late 66 AD by Cestius Gallus, Governor of Syria. But he left without any rational reason. Titus arrives in early 70 AD. Thus this is the time frame for the establishment of the Kingdom, not some time in our future.

You are basically arguing about free will vs predestination.

Given what Peter stated in acts 3, if the Jewish nation repented there and then, Jesus would have return to sit on David throne.

You had the benefit of knowing what they chose, they rejected their king.

But that does not mean the nation did not have the legitimate choice then.

 

[PlainWord]

You are basically arguing about free will vs predestination.

Given what Peter stated in acts 3, if the Jewish nation repented there and then, Jesus would have return to sit on David throne.

You had the benefit of knowing what they chose, they rejected their king.

But that does not mean the nation did not have the legitimate choice then.

Actually I am doing neither. I do not address free will v. predestination in this context at all. I do not think Peter was telling the nation of Israel that it still had a chance to repent and accept their savior, rather he was telling individual Jews that they had time to repent and accept as suggested by the below.

23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

I think the Lord's words in Mat 10 are particularly relevant to our discussion. Christ literally, and spiritually ripped Israel in two. Those who did not hear from "the Prophet" (Jesus) were utterly destroyed from among the people (Acts 3) which happened between 66-70 AD. This is what Jesus taught earlier in Mat 10:

32 “Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.

Christ Brings Division

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.

All of the wicked Jewish priests who denied Christ as their King and their children, were put to death.

 

[PlainWord]

In the end of the matter In the last days God has spoken to us through his Son you could say as a living parable . Like when Jesus was offered food .he said he was not hungry he had meat do the will of another that they knew not of.

Mathew 24 is no different .set aside as a parable. Hiding the gospel understanding with the literal (mixing faith) .

Having just departed from the temple it was if they disciples questioned his ability to see, like perhaps he did not see the glory.

Invited him in for open your eyes, another look, which he refused as a lovingly rebuke against them .

Rather Jesus said to them in effect using lively stones that make up the spiritual house of God not seen not one stone would stand in the holy place unseen. They all fell when Jesus said it is finished . Literal stones are still used today as a abomination of desolation making the unseen source of faith desolate. The same wall that men cry out to.

When having been moved to the highest surrounding mountain, the mount of Olives. It was used to signify all the kingdoms as denomination of the world in the new order. . Then apart from the temple they asked him the sign as to the day and hour. None was given other than the normal on goings like in the days of Noah . . signs of the times under the Sun

In that way without parables showing the work of the father and the Son, Christ spoke not through the Son of man.

Matthew 24 King James Version (KJV) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

last portion above ,,, And of the sign (singular) as the end of the world? not signs (.last day, Amil) )

No sign as a wonder was given. The last the sign of Jonas as a shadow was fulfilled with the Son of man Jesus.

It wasn't to be the end of the world, but of the age. Notice the destruction of the temple and end of the age are linked both by the question and the answer? The other 2 accounts in both Mark and Luke make this point clearer. All three versions cover the same ground. Only in Mat is the end of the age mentioned.

Luke 21:
5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”
7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

Mark 13:
Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!”
2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

The object in focus was the temple first and foremost. This is understandable. The temple was the greatest building on the planet and was world renown. It had been the center of the Jewish culture for 1,000 years!! Since all three versions recall the same conversation, we can conclude that the end of the age corresponds with the destruction of temple, for this, and the other reasons I mentioned before, none of the Olivet deals with events to occur in our future.

 

[garee]

It wasn't to be the end of the world, but of the age. Notice the destruction of the temple and end of the age are linked both by the question and the answer? The other 2 accounts in both Mark and Luke make this point clearer. All three versions cover the same ground. Only in Mat is the end of the age mentioned.

Luke 21:
5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.”
7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

Mark 13:
Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, “Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!”
2 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 4 “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

The object in focus was the temple first and foremost. This is understandable. The temple was the greatest building on the planet and was world renown. It had been the center of the Jewish culture for 1,000 years!! Since all three versions recall the same conversation, we can conclude that the end of the age corresponds with the destruction of temple, for this, and the other reasons I mentioned before, none of the Olivet deals with events to occur in our future.

Hi thanks for the reply.

End of the age represents the whole new testament era as the last days ending on the last day under the sun .The phrase last day is used 6 times to indicate believers receiving their new promised bodies and the day death by the letter of the law is made to no effect cast into the fiery. Never to rise and corrupt a another whole creation. Both occurring simotaniiously. End of age also referred as "this generation" the generation of the last days

The temple which was built in opposition to the will of God by the opposing will of men was used as a parable for the time present until the reformation .When the reformation came the image built with human hand as a pagan foundation called a abomination of desolation. was made useless when the veil was rent. Created corruptible things seen standing in the holy unseen eternal place of God's glory .