An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

[kleronomos]

You started with the opinion that John was not there in a spirit body. I was curious how that works in your interpretation. Scripture points to John being in the future in a spirit body. Am I mistaken?

If John was there only in spirit (with some kind of spirit body) it would follow that a literal 144,000 could also be some kind of time travellers similar to John. That would mean that these individuals weren't necessarily dead or resurrected (unless some other verse said so). There are implications to that.

I am basically just presenting this as a possible interpretation rather than a necessary case. Leaving it at "OK" is itself satisfactory.

I personally do not know how God does those things but I do know this about both Paul and John, THEY DIDN'T 'SOW' their flesh body so they didn't RESURRECT in glory in their spiritual one.

Where would that 'heavenly/spiritual' body go at death of the earthy, if not to heaven with the spirit/soul? Does an incorruptible body go into the dust to 'await' the return of the spirit? Aren't disembodied spirits demons?


1Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[kleronomos]

ALL these Scripture declare ONE SINGLE COMING/APPEARING = His Second Coming

His Second APPEARING is NOT in spirit or in a vision or dream = It is HIS Literal Appearing as it was in His First Coming except now HE returns in HIS Glorified Body.

1 Thess 4:13-18 = He brings the Saints with HIM = Their SPIRITS/SOULS as their bodies are still in the grave.

That is why when HE Comes the Resurrection takes place at His Appearing = never Before.
The RESURRECTION of HIS Saints takes place at HIS COMING and with the TRUMPET of GOD = 1 Thess 4:16 & 1 Cor ch15 & Matt ch24

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

I disagree and don't see what you are referring to in any of the places you referred to.

And if I go and prepare a place for you again I AM COMING and will receive you to Myself that where am I, also you may be

erchomai: to come, go
Original Word: ἔρχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: erchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-khom-ahee)
Definition: to come, go
Usage: I come, go.

a. of Christ's invisible return from heaven, i. e. of the power which through the Holy Spirit he will exert in the souls of his disciples: John 14:18, 23; of his invisible advent in the death of believers, by which be takes them to himself into heaven, John 14:3.


Body died - 'sown' made alive - 'raised up' no waiting.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The only mystery is that although Levi was the tribe that doesn't receive any land, in Revelation Dan was the one not on the list. Some theory suggests Dan is a serpent like Judas among the original twelve disciples, they have sold their souls to the devil and the Antichrist will rise among them. It seems plausible, but I've never believed any of it.

they are saying that because of the blessings of the twelve tribes of Jacob in genesis 49 just as you can trace Judah from there to Christ you can follow all the tribes through prophecy and discover what happened and why

“Dan shall be a serpent by the way, An adder in the path, That biteth the horse heels, So that his rider shall fall backward.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭49:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[oyster67]

QUESTION: Is God a Spirit?

Sure, and in more ways than one.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

QUESTION: Is God a Spirit?

Use the four elements to illustrate the Holy Trinity: Father is Fire, Spirit is Air, Son is clay - which is both Earth and Water. Fire and air are heavenly elements, water and earth are earthly elements, and to sustain life, all four are essential - heat, air, nutrients and water.

 

[Jocund]

I personally do not know how God does those things but I do know this about both Paul and John, THEY DIDN'T 'SOW' their flesh body so they didn't RESURRECT in glory in their spiritual one.

Where would that 'heavenly/spiritual' body go at death of the earthy, if not to heaven with the spirit/soul? Does an incorruptible body go into the dust to 'await' the return of the spirit? Aren't disembodied spirits demons?


1Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

"And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself." - 1 Sam 28:13-14 KJV

Was Samuel present in a glorified spirit body or a different kind of spirit body?

 

[DavidTree]

I disagree and don't see what you are referring to in any of the places you referred to.

And if I go and prepare a place for you again I AM COMING and will receive you to Myself that where am I, also you may be

erchomai: to come, go
Original Word: ἔρχομαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: erchomai
Phonetic Spelling: (er'-khom-ahee)
Definition: to come, go
Usage: I come, go.

a. of Christ's invisible return from heaven, i. e. of the power which through the Holy Spirit he will exert in the souls of his disciples: John 14:18, 23; of his invisible advent in the death of believers, by which be takes them to himself into heaven, John 14:3.


Body died - 'sown' made alive - 'raised up' no waiting.

Good Morning
You disagree with what specifically? This is important to know.

 

[DavidTree]

Sure, and in more ways than one.

Amen

 

[DavidTree]

Use the four elements to illustrate the Holy Trinity: Father is Fire, Spirit is Air, Son is clay - which is both Earth and Water. Fire and air are heavenly elements, water and earth are earthly elements, and to sustain life, all four are essential - heat, air, nutrients and water.

Good Morning,
Some believe that the Son was a man before He became a man? Are you suggesting this?

 

[Rhomphaeam]

"And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself." - 1 Sam 28:13-14 KJV

Was Samuel present in a glorified spirit body or a different kind of spirit body?

Samuel was disturbed in his sleep, being divined by a necromancer, to which sight of him she exclaimed that she could see Elohim a divine being - god. Psalm 82 designation.

וַיֹּ֨אמֶר לָ֥הּ הַמֶּ֛לֶךְ אַל־תִּֽירְאִ֖י כִּ֣י מָ֣ה רָאִ֑ית וַתֹּ֤אמֶר הָֽאִשָּׁה֙ אֶל־שָׁא֔וּל אֱלֹהִ֥ים רָאִ֖יתִי עֹלִ֥ים מִן־הָאָֽרֶץ׃ וַיֹּ֤אמֶר לָהּ֙ מַֽה־תָּאֳר֔וֹ וַתֹּ֗אמֶר אִ֤ישׁ זָקֵן֙ עֹלֶ֔ה וְה֥וּא עֹטֶ֖ה מְעִ֑יל וַיֵּ֤דַע שָׁאוּל֙ כִּֽי־שְׁמוּאֵ֣ל ה֔וּא וַיִּקֹּ֥ד אַפַּ֛יִם אַ֖רְצָה וַיִּשְׁתָּֽחוּ׃ ס

I am not certain that her necromancy forms a valid basis for establishing the difference that you are inferentially implying. She could see Samuel - King Saul could not. Saul could hear Samuel - she could not.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Good Morning,
Some believe that the Son was a man before He became a man? Are you suggesting this?

No. The Word was God and with God in the beginning, but the flesh wasn’t. Adam was the prototype and Jesus is the last Adam. But since the word became flesh, God as the pillar of cloud at day and pillar of fire at night became a man, and in this analogy, the Potter’s clay. You know, the clay was made of mud, it became solid after it was dried by air and baked by fire, so there you have all four elements.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
I disagree. Jesus moved into a locked room. That ain't no mortal body. His resurrection was the first one (firstfruits) where a glorified body was given.

Consider Acts 26:23 - that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

Obviously He wasn't the first to "rise from the dead". There are examples in the OT and many in the gospels, before Jesus died.

The key is whether one receives an immortal body, (imperishable) as Paul puts it.

1 Cor 15:54 - When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

I doubt it.

Could you be a bit more specific here? Look at my post above and narrow down what you "doubt". I gave you 2 verses. Do you doubt both of them, or just one? Or what?

On one hand, His resurrected body must look vastly different than His original one since His own disciples and Mary Magdalene didn't recognize Him at first glance

We know from the account of the road to Emmaus that He was able to keep His identity hidden, and then He opened their eyes.

Luke 24:13-16
Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; but they were kept from recognizing him.

Then, v.31 - Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight

But you may keep on being a doubtint Thomas if you want. The FACT "they recognized Him" PROVES that He looked the same as before His crucifixion.

Further proof:
Luke 24:37-40
They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet.

Why would Jesus ask them to look at His hands and feet if He looked any different than before His death? He wanted them to SEE the nail holes left by the crucifixion.

John 20:27 - Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

So, doubting Thomas, quit doubting and BELIEVE that Jesus in His glorified body looked the SAME as before His death.

on the other hand, He was having breakfast with Peter by the sea, that shows this body still took calories - or should I say, earthly sustenance. He was called first fruit because He ascended to the Father in heaven - where immortality is of absolute certainty, while other resurrected people would still die someday.

No, Jesus is called "firstfruits" BECAUSE He was the FIRST to "rise from the dead", meaning resurrection, and the FIRST to receive a glorified body.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

The subject of this context is resurrection.

And then they were NOT there anymore, and Jesus was back to normal. "When they lifted up their eyes, they saw NO ONE but Jesus only." (Matt. 17:8) What they saw was a temporary VISION.

Do you understand that Jesus was still in His mortal body then? And after the TRANSFIGURATION, His body returned to His mortal state.

What you call a "vision" was a TRANSFORMATION. Why are you so loathe to just accept what was written?

Matt 17:2 "transfigured" before them-

metamorphoó: to transform
Original Word: μεταμορφόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metamorphoó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-am-or-fo'-o)
Definition: to transform
Usage: I transform, transfigure.
HELPS Word-studies
3339 metamorphóō (from 3326 /metá, "change after being with" and 3445 /morphóō, "changing form in keeping with inner reality") – properly, transformed after being with; transfigured.
[3339 (metamorphóō) is the root of the English terms "metamorphosis" and "metamorphize."]

So don't tell me this was just a "vision". Jesus CHANGED. That's the meaning of the word.

I don't care whether you accept my views, but for heaven's sake, ACCEPT the Word of God.

Yes, it was a real vision, Jesus did transfigurate like Moses on Mount Sinai, but it was just temporary.

Now you're just contradicting yourself.

It can't be both a vision and a real change. So you need to make up your mind. The Bible says He CHANGED.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
My interest in end times is basically to get the timeline right. I see too many get in the weeds over details that I don't see the significance of.

When I study Rev 6 and the "4 horsemen", it seems to me I'm seeing prophecy being fulfilled in current events.

Revelation is NOT written in chronological order

Some is and some isn't. The Tribulation begins with the 4 horsemen, as the first 4 seal judgments.

both the white horse and the beast from the sea are the Antichrist, which is Satan's incarnate on earth.

Maybe, maybe not. That is one interpretation.

In Genesis, Joseph had TWO dreams about his brothers bowing down to him, and then pharoah had TWO dreams about 7 years of harvest and 7 years of famine; in Daniel, there were King Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the Babylonian statue and Daniel's vision of the four beasts, both were about the reign of gentile nations over Israel. In Deuteronomy, Moses set a basic principle that two or more witnesses are required to establish a claim, and this principle was applied in Genesis and Daniel. It won't be a surprise if this principle is also applied in Revelation.

That is another interpretation of Revelation.

John was clear about what he was writing about. End times. My interest is in the timeline. iow, what follows what.

 

[Absolutely]

Anyone who has the Holy Spirit is married to Him.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

It says we are espoused to him

As in mary being espoused to Joseph.

You can look it up.

The bride becomes the wife in rev 19

 

[DavidTree]

No. The Word was God and with God in the beginning, but the flesh wasn’t. Adam was the prototype and Jesus is the last Adam. But since the word became flesh, God as the pillar of cloud at day and pillar of fire at night became a man, and in this analogy, the Potter’s clay. You know, the clay was made of mud, it became solid after it was dried by air and baked by fire, so there you have all four elements.

Verry happy now as you had me concerned. There are mind bending beliefs on here that are hysterical and frightful at the same time.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In a sense you firm up where my disagreement comes from - on the other hand you exclude yourself from its essential meaning because you refuse the precept of a rapture in the strict caught up into the clouds of the air sense of 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

No, I have NOT "excluded myself" from that. I have explained numerous times on this thread that there is NO "rapture" in the commonly understood sense; that Jesus comes to the clouds, resurrects all believers and then takes them to heaven.

What is true is that Jesus comes to the clouds, and gives ALL believers glorified bodies. What isn't true is that He will take them up to heaven. I hope this helps clarify my actual view.

Yet you cite Matthew 24 which speaks of being gathered in by the angels from the four winds.

So? The passage is about AFTER the Tribulation.

No need to ask any further. Your position doesn't support the necessary claims to allow me to write any further on that subject of the first resurrection and its corresponding rapture - which you refer to as a gathering. Linguistically Matthew 24:31 is a different Gk expression than is 1 Thessalonians 4:17 and means to bring together rather than to catch up - of course Matthew 24:31 speaks about the theatre of gathering - in meaning - being "from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

This seems more like word games than anything. When Jesus comes back, one could describe the joining of the dead saints from heaven and the living saints from earth as a gathering OR as a "catching UP". Doesn't matter a bit.

Yes, different words. So what? The SAME concept applies.

The Strong number for "gather" in Matt 24:31 is 1996. The Strong number for "gather" in 2 Thess 2:1 is 1997. So they are closely related.

I didn't say there was an annoyance with Isaiah 7 as an object of annoyance - rather myself as the source. Still I have to give some American brethren the hand of acknowledging their skill in deflecting every meaning and refusing even the simplest things unless they are acknowledged first.

Sorry, but I'm not seeing a point here. Could you explain "some American brethren"?

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The bride becomes the wife in rev 19

She was preparing to be one. You can look it up.

 

[DavidTree]

It says we are espoused to him

As in mary being espoused to Joseph.

You can look it up.

The bride becomes the wife in rev 19

Here is something for everyone to ponder and meditate on and discover:

Now, we who belong to Christ, collectively are His Bride, and in chapter 19 we see this:
"Let’s rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, because the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has prepared herself.” It was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints."

What is significant about chapter 19 that could not be fully ready prior to this point in Revelation and why?

Peace to those who seek Truth rather then seeking to please man/religion.

 

[DavidTree]

The LORD and the Holy Spirit have the authority and wisdom to speak of the same subject in different ways yet it is still the same subject that they wish to convey to us.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Could you be a bit more specific here? Look at my post above and narrow down what you "doubt". I gave you 2 verses. Do you doubt both of them, or just one? Or what?

I doubt it because while you insist that His resurrected body was His glorified and immortal body, He was still on earth as the Word that "dwelt among us"; He ate breakfast with Peter as I pointed out; and He specifically told Mary Magdalene: "Don't cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to my father." So I think it's quite reasonable to come to a conclusion that this was not final form, not until Stephen saw Him sitting at the Father's right hand.

So don't tell me this was just a "vision". Jesus CHANGED. That's the meaning of the word.

I don't care whether you accept my views, but for heaven's sake, ACCEPT the Word of God.

Even if He did change at the moment, He turned back afterwards, so that transfiguration was temporary whatsoever.

Now you're just contradicting yourself.

It can't be both a vision and a real change. So you need to make up your mind. The Bible says He CHANGED.

In Exodus 34:29-35 Moses was transfigurated too, his face shone bright after he came down from Mount Sinai, that's why I mentioned it. What's the problem with that?