Baptism: is it required to be baptized in water?

[DJ2]

Choosing to believe the gospel by placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ’s finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation is not a work that merits our salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption).

Repentance is not a work that merits our salvation either. We must first repent "change our mind" before we can believe the gospel and become saved. Through repentance/faith, Christ is still the object of our complete trust in receiving salvation.

Baptism is a work which follows saving faith in Christ and if it's necessary for salvation, that would add merit on our part to receiving salvation because then we would be saved based on Christ's finished work of redemption “plus our baptism.”

So if baptism is not a work, what is it? Just a nothing? No work at all is accomplished when one is water baptized? Water baptism is a work of righteousness (Matthew 3:13-15) and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done (Titus 3:5) but by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

The gospel is not limited to simply "choosing to believe", that is nothing more then a smoke screen for faith alone regeneration theology. Of course one must first believe but that belief is not the moment of the forgiveness of sins. Through obedience to what God has ordained as the moment of the forgiveness of sins, we are then completely trusting in "Another's work" (Christ's finished work of redemption). Falsely labeling faith alone is not trusting in His work but trusting in our own sensibilities.

Repentance, faith and baptism are not works that merit our salvation. Through repentance/faith/baptism, Christ is still the object of our complete trust in receiving salvation. Many of the new age groups have turned the acceptance of faith alone regeneration theology into a work and hence have become modern day Pharisees.

Submitting to baptism is a pledge of a clear conscience toward God (1st Peter 3:21), it is not a work of righteousness or a "plus". It is the necessary and ordained moment of the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). There are no necessary "works" after the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Noose]

The gospel is not limited to simply "choosing to believe", that is nothing more then a smoke screen for faith alone regeneration theology. Of course one must first believe but that belief is not the moment of the forgiveness of sins. Through obedience to what God has ordained as the moment of the forgiveness of sins, we are then completely trusting in "Another's work" (Christ's finished work of redemption). Falsely labeling faith alone is not trusting in His work but trusting in our own sensibilities.

Repentance, faith and baptism are not works that merit our salvation. Through repentance/faith/baptism, Christ is still the object of our complete trust in receiving salvation. Many of the new age groups have turned the acceptance of faith alone regeneration theology into a work and hence have become modern day Pharisees.

Submitting to baptism is a pledge of a clear conscience toward God (1st Peter 3:21), it is not a work of righteousness or a "plus". It is the necessary and ordained moment of the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). There are no necessary "works" after the forgiveness of sins.

Water baptism is not a requirement and is not necessary for us but was necessary for the identification of Messiah. Prophesies about the coming messiah were divided into:

-Identification of the messiah
These included things like virgin birth/birth in the city of Bethlehem/ water baptism

-who the messiah actually is
He is simply the Almighty God who took flesh to be a man

-Messiah's work
This is everything that He did and said that makes the basis of our faith.

Even John the baptists said that water baptism was only for the identification of the Messiah because after baptizing Jesus, John witnessed a voice from heaven and the spirit of God in the form of a dove .....
And God in Malachi and also through prophet Isaiah said that the messenger (John) was only to prepare the way for Him and that preparation was the identification.

And John also witnessed and said that he only uses water but the one after him will use the Holy spirit. I guess we fall in the group that's after John.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Water baptism is not a requirement and is not necessary for us...

This is heretical doctrine. Where did you learn it?

 

[Noose]

This is heretical doctrine. Where did you learn it?

John 1:31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”32Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.33And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

This is the only purpose for water baptism.

 

[Noose]

John 1:31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”32Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.33And I myelf did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

This is the only purpose for water baptism.

The one who told John the baptist to use water in order that the messiah be identified is the same person that told him that after him (John), comes one who will baptize with the Holy spirit.

 

[mailmandan]

The gospel is not limited to simply "choosing to believe", that is nothing more then a smoke screen for faith alone regeneration theology.

Your argument is a smokescreen for your false gospel of salvation by "water and works." In Acts 15:7, we read - ..that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. What other requirements do you see there besides hear and believe? We must first hear the word of the gospel before we can choose to believe the gospel and become saved. In Romans 1:16, we read - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes.. Believes plus what? Simply BELIEVES.

Of course one must first believe but that belief is not the moment of the forgiveness of sins. Through obedience to what God has ordained as the moment of the forgiveness of sins, we are then completely trusting in "Another's work" (Christ's finished work of redemption). Falsely labeling faith alone is not trusting in His work but trusting in our own sensibilities.

Belief is the moment of forgiveness (John 6:40; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 11:17; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5 etc..). By trusting in water baptism as the moment of forgiveness, you are not trusting in Christ's finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of your salvation, but are trusting in your works. Man is saved through faith (rightly understood) IN CHRIST alone (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Repentance, faith and baptism are not works that merit our salvation.

By the time that you place repentance "after" faith and define it as self moral reformation, it would merit salvation and if baptism were absolutely necessary for salvation, it would also merit our salvation. We are saved the moment that we repent "change our mind" and place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in CHRIST ALONE for salvation BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18).

Through repentance/faith/baptism, Christ is still the object of our complete trust in receiving salvation.

If you are trusting in water baptism to save you, then Christ is not the object of your complete trust in receiving salvation. Christ and baptism does not equate to CHRIST ALONE.

Many of the new age groups have turned the acceptance of faith alone regeneration theology into a work and hence have become modern day Pharisees.

I can't speak for new age groups, but I know many works-salvationists who have perverted the gospel and have become modern day Pharisees of their false religions.

Submitting to baptism is a pledge of a clear conscience toward God (1st Peter 3:21), it is not a work of righteousness or a "plus". It is the necessary and ordained moment of the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38). There are no necessary "works" after the forgiveness of sins.

Jesus was water baptized to "fulfill all righteousness" (Matthew 3:13-15) so water baptism is a work of righteousness (Titus 3:5). Do you believe that water baptism is a work of UN-righteousness?

I have already throughly refuted your arguments for 1 Peter 3:21 and Acts 2:38 in post #1332 and elsewhere, but just like Roman Catholics, Mormons and other works-salvationists who teach baptismal remission/regeneration, you just don't have ears to hear.

*It's time for you to hear the word of the gospel and BELIEVE.

 

[DaveTheRave]

Baptism first and foremost is an outward symbol of what has happened in a person's heart when they were saved. For this reason I do not believe that baptism is equatable to salvation, does not wash away sins and should not be done on babies.

It depends what the OC meant by "required". It is required of us in the Bible (i.e we are commanded to do it) but I do not believe that if someone dies between someone giving their life to the Lord and water baptism that they will not be accepted by Him.

God is merciful and just. He knows each of our hearts and will judge us based on that.

In general I don't think God will let someone into or exclude someone from heaven based off a technicality.

Great thread by the way,
Dave

 

[DJ2]

John 1:31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”32Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.33And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

This is the only purpose for water baptism.

This is the only purpose for water baptism.​

Where is the word "only" in your Bible quote?

 

[Noose]

Where is the word "only" in your Bible quote?

You don't need the word 'only' because we have been told the purpose of water baptism by the one who was told to do water baptism- anything above that is an addition.

 

[DJ2]

You don't need the word 'only' because we have been told the purpose of water baptism by the one who was told to do water baptism- anything above that is an addition.

That is not how composition works.

If baptism's sole purpose was the one time event between Jesus and John the Baptist it would have been written in the definitive not inferred. You are using the same logic as believers in faith alone regeneration theology. They infer that verses that do not mention repentance or baptism mean that it is "faith alone" that saves and will build a theology around that assumption. They will not use this logic on other subjects since it would cause chaos in everyday life.

 

[preston39]

Water baptism is not a requirement and is not necessary for us...

N...,

You need to study scriptures;

Repentance is required
Baptism is re

 

[preston39]

(was timed out)

Repentance is required
Baptism is required
Maintaining a righteous life style until the end is required.

 

[Noose]

That is not how composition works.

If baptism's sole purpose was the one time event between Jesus and John the Baptist it would have been written in the definitive not inferred. You are using the same logic as believers in faith alone regeneration theology. They infer that verses that do not mention repentance or baptism mean that it is "faith alone" that saves and will build a theology around that assumption. They will not use this logic on other subjects since it would cause chaos in everyday life.

Nope,

1.It was prophesied several times that John would come to prepare the way for Messiah- so John's work was to prepare the way i.e make the hearts of men ready for the seed to be planted and also identify the sower. John's work was not to plant the seed.

2. John himself says that he was told to do water baptism as the means through which the messiah was to be identified. John's message was "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.." he didn't say "repent and enter the kingdom..."
It is clear that the message of repentance was preparing people's heart and water baptism was to identify the messiah amongst the people.
John's message was not the message of salvation itself but a message of preparation and water baptism was not for salvation baptism but symbolic of salvation baptism which is the real baptism and it is the baptism by the Holy spirit. Even John told the people that after him comes the one who would not baptize with water but by the Holy spirit.

How is the above message confusing? baptism means to be indwelled by the Holy spirit not water immersion; water immersion was only symbolic.

 

[hornetguy]

Nope,

1.It was prophesied several times that John would come to prepare the way for Messiah- so John's work was to prepare the way i.e make the hearts of men ready for the seed to be planted and also identify the sower. John's work was not to plant the seed.

2. John himself says that he was told to do water baptism as the means through which the messiah was to be identified. John's message was "repent for the kingdom of God is at hand.." he didn't say "repent and enter the kingdom..."
It is clear that the message of repentance was preparing people's heart and water baptism was to identify the messiah amongst the people.
John's message was not the message of salvation itself but a message of preparation and water baptism was not for salvation baptism but symbolic of salvation baptism which is the real baptism and it is the baptism by the Holy spirit. Even John told the people that after him comes the one who would not baptize with water but by the Holy spirit.

How is the above message confusing? baptism means to be indwelled by the Holy spirit not water immersion; water immersion was only symbolic.

If that is true, then why did Jesus make his last words to his disciples to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit" ?

 

[Noose]

If that is true, then why did Jesus make his last words to his disciples to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit" ?

It seems the conundrum is the word 'baptism', like i keep saying, baptism doesn't mean water, it means the Holy spirit.
Baptizing in the name (authority) of the Father/Son/Holy spirit means getting indwelled by the Holy spirit because the Father comes into the believer with the authority of the Holy spirit and only that time, we (believers) pick up the authority of the son and in this arrangement, the father and the son become one.

John 14:22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 16: 7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 16:22So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy.23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

The verses above may seem confusing but what they really mean is that Jesus is our Father, that's why He insisted in going- if He goes and be our Father, only then He can come to us and only then we become His sons. This is what it means to baptize in the authority of the Father/Son/Holy spirit.

 

[carl11]

If that is true, then why did Jesus make his last words to his disciples to "go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit" ?

This has nothing to do with Water Baptism, but rather that of the Gospel we are to baptize in other words to wash others of their sin. This has the same concept as that of James 5:20.

 

[mailmandan]

(was timed out)

Repentance is required
Baptism is required
Maintaining a righteous life style until the end is required.

No mention of faith. hmm.. Why don't you explain to us what YOU believe repentance IS and also what YOU believe this righteous life style consists of and how it helps Jesus save us?

 

[hornetguy]

It seems the conundrum is the word 'baptism', like i keep saying, baptism doesn't mean water, it means the Holy spirit.
Baptizing in the name (authority) of the Father/Son/Holy spirit means getting indwelled by the Holy spirit because the Father comes into the believer with the authority of the Holy spirit and only that time, we (believers) pick up the authority of the son and in this arrangement, the father and the son become one.

John 14:22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”23Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

John 16: 7But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 16:22So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy.23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. Very truly I tell you, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

The verses above may seem confusing but what they really mean is that Jesus is our Father, that's why He insisted in going- if He goes and be our Father, only then He can come to us and only then we become His sons. This is what it means to baptize in the authority of the Father/Son/Holy spirit.

There is no way that can be correct. The Jews at Pentecost had NO concept of a "spiritual baptism". Peter told them to repent and be baptized. They knew EXACTLY what he meant. It was a common practice at the time. WATER baptism. When anyone spoke of being baptized, everyone knew what was being described.

If Peter had been talking about spiritual baptism, he would have had to explain the concept to all those 3000 men, and he did not do that. He simply said "be baptized". THEY knew what he meant. Knowledge and understanding of how we also experience a spiritual baptism came later in the believer's life. Perhaps an hour later, or a day later, or a few months later.. but Peter and the apostles taught and practiced water baptism... as Jesus instructed. So did every Christian believer after Jesus for nearly 2000 years, until the Reformation.... when some enlightened soul decided that water baptism wasn't really necessary. All those believers preceding them had somehow gotten it all wrong... smh.

You are simply trying to twist the plainly stated scripture to fit your belief. That is not a good thing to do, brother.

 

[hornetguy]

This has nothing to do with Water Baptism, but rather that of the Gospel we are to baptize in other words to wash others of their sin. This has the same concept as that of James 5:20.

See my previous post.... #1378

 

[Noose]

There is no way that can be correct. The Jews at Pentecost had NO concept of a "spiritual baptism". Peter told them to repent and be baptized. They knew EXACTLY what he meant. It was a common practice at the time. WATER baptism. When anyone spoke of being baptized, everyone knew what was being described.

If Peter had been talking about spiritual baptism, he would have had to explain the concept to all those 3000 men, and he did not do that. He simply said "be baptized". THEY knew what he meant. Knowledge and understanding of how we also experience a spiritual baptism came later in the believer's life. Perhaps an hour later, or a day later, or a few months later.. but Peter and the apostles taught and practiced water baptism... as Jesus instructed. So did every Christian believer after Jesus for nearly 2000 years, until the Reformation.... when some enlightened soul decided that water baptism wasn't really necessary. All those believers preceding them had somehow gotten it all wrong... smh.

You are simply trying to twist the plainly stated scripture to fit your belief. That is not a good thing to do, brother.

The concept of baptizing with the Holy spirit was known during John's time because John witnessed to them;

Mark 1:7And he began to proclaim: “After me will come One more powerful than I, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8Ibaptizeyouwith water,butHewill baptizeyouwiththe HolySpirit.”

John 1:29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”32Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.33And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”

Acts 2:38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”40With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

These people listened to the gospel and accepted it, they had a change of heart and were repentant- the result was that they received the Holy spirit and this is what we call baptism- from this passage, it is not right to insist that water was used.
It might be true that water baptism was common then but it was of no significance because even the disciples themselves and the apostles were not water baptized at any given moment yet they received the Holy spirit.