Being born of water and Spirit

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Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
4,762
2,591
113
#1
If we have faith in Christ we will have faith in everything He said and not only the the things He did. Christ said water baptism is righteous, part of being born of water and Spirit, and is a commandment in the great commission.

Part of why water baptism is so unclear to so many people is that it isn't mentioned consistently as a requirement for forgiveness of sins, salvation, eternal life, etc. There is enough material in the Bible to build a case for salvation through faith alone and there is certainly enough material to build a case for the requirement of baptism. We need to accept both and unite the requirement of water and faith.

Where I am currently at is that water baptism is necessary for the salvation of the glorified resurrected body. Jesus told us repeatedly to have faith in Him for salvation and then only mentioned water baptism a bit.

My line of thinking goes like this: if Jesus said "be born of water and Spirit" then what happened if I am only born of Spirit? That means my soul is born again. A soul born of God's Spirit can't be unsaved. What if I am only born of water? Like a live birth through amniotic fluid, water baptism is our physical body dying and being resurrected. Water and Spirit is therefore physical salvation of the resurrected body and soul salvation.


John 1:12,13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:5-7
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Now consider what Jesus said below:

Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

To reverse engineer Mark 16:16, Jesus said you if you believe then you won't be damned which means you won't be judged for your sins which means salvation. However, believing and water baptism is salvation, too, but it's salvation of both the soul and something else... in my view that's water baptism for the physical body. I already know the rebuttal about Mark 16:16 and there isn't enough evidence to not accept it as truth.

For Romans 6:4,5... In the likeness of His death (going down into the water like you're being buried in the ground like someone who died... and then rising up out of the water as if raising from the dead) except you don't actually die and don't actually get resurrected yet. Death is later and resurrection is later too. Romans 6:4,5 says water baptism is necessary for resurrection.


Romans 6:4,5
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

For 1 Peter 3:21... it point blank says that water baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That means if you are water baptized then you'll be saved via a bodily resurrection.

1 Peter 3:21
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

For 1 Corinthians 15:29... the answer to this question is that immersion in water baptism is pointless unless there is a resurrection.

1 Cor. 15:29
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
 
Sep 17, 2016
7,898
3,910
113
#4
If we have faith in Christ we will have faith in everything He said and not only the the things He did. Christ said water baptism is righteous, part of being born of water and Spirit, and is a commandment in the great commission.

Part of why water baptism is so unclear to so many people is that it isn't mentioned consistently as a requirement for forgiveness of sins, salvation, eternal life, etc. There is enough material in the Bible to build a case for salvation through faith alone and there is certainly enough material to build a case for the requirement of baptism. We need to accept both and unite the requirement of water and faith.

Where I am currently at is that water baptism is necessary for the salvation of the glorified resurrected body. Jesus told us repeatedly to have faith in Him for salvation and then only mentioned water baptism a bit.

My line of thinking goes like this: if Jesus said "be born of water and Spirit" then what happened if I am only born of Spirit? That means my soul is born again. A soul born of God's Spirit can't be unsaved. What if I am only born of water? Like a live birth through amniotic fluid, water baptism is our physical body dying and being resurrected. Water and Spirit is therefore physical salvation of the resurrected body and soul salvation.

John 1:12,13
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


John 3:5-7
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Now consider what Jesus said below:

Mark 16:16
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


To reverse engineer Mark 16:16, Jesus said you if you believe then you won't be damned which means you won't be judged for your sins which means salvation. However, believing and water baptism is salvation, too, but it's salvation of both the soul and something else... in my view that's water baptism for the physical body. I already know the rebuttal about Mark 16:16 and there isn't enough evidence to not accept it as truth.

For Romans 6:4,5... In the likeness of His death (going down into the water like you're being buried in the ground like someone who died... and then rising up out of the water as if raising from the dead) except you don't actually die and don't actually get resurrected yet. Death is later and resurrection is later too. Romans 6:4,5 says water baptism is necessary for resurrection.

Romans 6:4,5
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


For 1 Peter 3:21... it point blank says that water baptism saves by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That means if you are water baptized then you'll be saved via a bodily resurrection.

1 Peter 3:21
21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


For 1 Corinthians 15:29... the answer to this question is that immersion in water baptism is pointless unless there is a resurrection.

1 Cor. 15:29
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
Didn't get enough of debate in the last water baptism thread a few weeks ago?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
41,458
17,013
113
#5
Matthew 3:15. Immediately before His water baptism He referred to getting water baptized by John as fulfilling all righteousness.
Yes, I realize Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. But that is not what you
said. The claim you made was that Jesus said water baptism was righteousness.
 
Jan 27, 2022
647
205
43
Tin Can Bay
#7
I'm not directing any criticism towards the OP and other respondents here, but I personally wish we would stop mystifying water and spiritual baptisms and creating unnecessary complexities and confusion.

Water baptism is a symbolic repeat of the event of the waters closing over and freeing Israel from the pursuing Egyptians, which to us is a metaphor for our being freed from the sinful behaviours that shackled us to our past.

We have crossed over the sea like natural Israel, and are now in the desert being guided by the cloud and fire, which is a metaphor to us for the Holy Spirit's guidance that He now gives every individual that He indwells.

Our faith and trust in Jesus and adherence to His teachings is the food/manna/bread that will sustain us and keep us spiritually alive in our desert walk which is our born again life here on earth.

I just don't get why we have to complicate things so much. Are we really, humbly seeking for truth, or is it just that our egos want to prove to others how spiritually insightful and knowledgeable we are? Are we really trying to prove Jesus as worthy, or just wanting to prove our intellectual or spiritual superiority over our peers? I'm not saying the OP or other respondent posts are meaning to do that, but the whole issue of water and spiritual baptisms, also raised in other forums, seems to be a thorn in many people's sides, and I just wonder why that is.

I realise we may need to divide the word over and over to tease out the real truth which can sometimes appear hidden. However, even a cow can only regurgitate what it has consumed as often as that has value to it, then it is given over to waste.

We need to be careful we don't make the Lord's word appear as waste!

Shalom 🙂
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
689
351
63
#8
For 1 Corinthians 15:29... the answer to this question is that immersion in water baptism is pointless unless there is a resurrection.

1 Cor. 15:29
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
How do you deal with Paul's question in 1Cor15:32. Because if there was salvation apart from resurrection, he wouldn't be able to ask the question like this... because it would have a legitimate answer. But it doesn't have a legitimate answer: it's a rhetorical question asked to make a point. There would be no reason to put himself in danger at all if there wasn't a resurrection.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
41,458
17,013
113
#9
I just don't get why we have to complicate things so much. I personally wish we would stop
mystifying water and spiritual baptisms and creating unnecessary complexities and confusion.
When people say things that are wrong, false, or misleading, don't you think it should be pointed out? Paul spent a lot of time correcting error and misunderstandings, and says we should be imitators of him, even as he is an imitator of Christ. Some go on and on about how water baptism brings the remission of sins, which would mean if you were not water baptized, you would not be saved, because you would still be in your sins, whereas Scripture attests to the fact that without shedding of blood is no remission/forgiveness. And Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, lived a sinless life, and went to the cross as the spotless Lamb of God, on our behalf, that all who believe on Him would be reconciled to God and attain to life ever after. So saying you receive remission of sins for something else contradicts a plethora of Scriptures that state it is by grace through faith that we are saved.
 
Jan 27, 2022
647
205
43
Tin Can Bay
#10
When people say things that are wrong, false, or misleading, don't you think it should be pointed out? Paul spent a lot of time correcting error and misunderstandings, and says we should be imitators of him, even as he is an imitator of Christ. Some go on and on about how water baptism brings the remission of sins, which would mean if you were not water baptized, you would not be saved, because you would still be in your sins, whereas Scripture attests to the fact that without shedding of blood is no remission/forgiveness. And Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, lived a sinless life, and went to the cross as the spotless Lamb of God, on our behalf, that all who believe on Him would be reconciled to God and attain to life ever after. So saying you receive remission of sins for something else contradicts a plethora of Scriptures that state it is by grace through faith that we are saved.
Absolutely, we need to contest each other's understanding, I agree.
Jesus' shed blood adorns the born again Christian's door posts (their person). If that precious and pure blood (our faith in Jesus) is not on us, and our steadfast faithfulness towards Him are not with us throughout the rest of our life, we are going to be with the lot that will be doing much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
My apologies M, I should have suggested/put my response up as a separate thread! I just let my feeling of frustration fly here.
 

SomeDisciple

Well-known member
Jul 4, 2021
689
351
63
#12
Are we really, humbly seeking for truth, or is it just that our egos want to prove to others how spiritually insightful and knowledgeable we are? Are we really trying to prove Jesus as worthy, or just wanting to prove our intellectual or spiritual superiority over our peers?
The way I look at it, if someone takes the time to earnestly look at what I posted, and takes the time to correct me; or at least tell me that they think I am off on something, that means they care.

BDF could use a little more exhortation though.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
4,762
2,591
113
#17
Yes, I realize Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. But that is not what you
said. The claim you made was that Jesus said water baptism was righteousness.
That’s correct. Jesus got water baptized to fulfill all righteousness because water baptism is righteous.
 

Runningman

Well-known member
Mar 4, 2020
4,762
2,591
113
#19
I'm not directing any criticism towards the OP and other respondents here, but I personally wish we would stop mystifying water and spiritual baptisms and creating unnecessary complexities and confusion.

Water baptism is a symbolic repeat of the event of the waters closing over and freeing Israel from the pursuing Egyptians, which to us is a metaphor for our being freed from the sinful behaviours that shackled us to our past.

We have crossed over the sea like natural Israel, and are now in the desert being guided by the cloud and fire, which is a metaphor to us for the Holy Spirit's guidance that He now gives every individual that He indwells.

Our faith and trust in Jesus and adherence to His teachings is the food/manna/bread that will sustain us and keep us spiritually alive in our desert walk which is our born again life here on earth.

I just don't get why we have to complicate things so much. Are we really, humbly seeking for truth, or is it just that our egos want to prove to others how spiritually insightful and knowledgeable we are? Are we really trying to prove Jesus as worthy, or just wanting to prove our intellectual or spiritual superiority over our peers? I'm not saying the OP or other respondent posts are meaning to do that, but the whole issue of water and spiritual baptisms, also raised in other forums, seems to be a thorn in many people's sides, and I just wonder why that is.

I realise we may need to divide the word over and over to tease out the real truth which can sometimes appear hidden. However, even a cow can only regurgitate what it has consumed as often as that has value to it, then it is given over to waste.

We need to be careful we don't make the Lord's word appear as waste!

Shalom 🙂
Thank your post is well-received in a constructive manner and I appreciate the tone you used. My intention for this thread is to actually harmonize the scripture between those who say only faith is required for salvation and those who say water baptism is required. Often, water and spirit people are divided sharply along ideological lines. I want to show how I think the scriptures can be harmonized.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
2,383
1,132
113
#20
I learned more about what I believe and sharpened my iron considerably since that thread. Now I want to present a fresh OP on it.
Not really...you just learned ways to re-inforce your preconceived notions.

Actually listening and learning have left you long ago. Nobody can ever teach you anything.