Even if it was, it does not change the truth. When you do not have God’s word as your authority for giving Him the kind of music in worship that He deserves in the NT church assembly, you resort to near insults, leading to unChristlike behavior. That allow me to know that you have no biblical answer or refutation with what the Bible believes on this issue, which further proves that I am correct with what I believe on God’s word on worship music. Thanks. My work here is done.
Believing on his name
- Thread starter LeeLoving
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The cart is before the horse. The Holy Spirit, through the preaching of the Gospel Message, brings conviction to one so they can see their need for GOD Grace to receive Salvation in the belief that Christ Died, was buried, and rose again. WE are able then to place faith in the work of the Cross to be saved.
Here is what you initially said, and this is what I initially responded to.
Later, you added this.
In both instances, you denied a correlation between abiding and salvation. In other words, you certainly seem to be saying that one need not abide in Christ in order to be saved. Here is what Jesus said about those who do not abide in him.
Jhn 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Are those who abide not in Christ saved or unsaved?
In both instances, you denied a correlation between abiding and salvation. In other words, you certainly seem to be saying that one need not abide in Christ in order to be saved. Here is what Jesus said about those who do not abide in him.
Jhn 15:6
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
Are those who abide not in Christ saved or unsaved?
That would be correct, abiding is not justification nor regeneration/born from above.
Spiritual regeneration is received based on faith in the complete work of Christ Jesus, no more and no less.
Ephesians 2:8
Abiding is relationship/fellowship and again he was teaching his disciples how they would bear fruit, in context that would be make disciples.
And the verse states men throw the branches in the fire, it does not state God.
Spiritual regeneration is received based on faith in the complete work of Christ Jesus, no more and no less.
Ephesians 2:8
Abiding is relationship/fellowship and again he was teaching his disciples how they would bear fruit, in context that would be make disciples.
And the verse states men throw the branches in the fire, it does not state God.
@keepingthingsreal, Heavenly symbols in Revelation tells us nothing how we are to worship today. Just because something is mentioned in heaven doesn’t mean it’s necessarily authorized to be done on earth. If you want to literalize it, then put 24 elders with harps in your worship assembly (Rev. 5:8), the four beasts and golden vials full of odours (Rev. 58). Don’t forget about a voice of many waters and many thundering (14:2). Oh, and make sure you or they stand on a sea of glass (15:2) Are these literal? Do you believe heaven is going to have 24 elders with harps? Four beasts and golden vials full of odours? What about the voice of many waters and mighty thunderings? Is that going to be in heaven, too? Are we going to be standing on the sea of glass? What about smoke of incense? Since you believe in using musical instruments in worship based on Revelation, then why not also the other things mentioned in Revelation?
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2 Corinthians 13:5: "Or do you not realize about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you?"
1 John 4:13: "By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit"
John 14:20: "On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you
He abides in us because He is faithful, we abide in Him not for salvation, Jesus did all the work for salvation, because we have a restored relationship with Him.
If you make abiding for salvation then it is logical you have added to the criteria for salvation and the the work of Christ Jesus is insufficient to save.
1 John 4:13: "By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit"
John 14:20: "On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you
He abides in us because He is faithful, we abide in Him not for salvation, Jesus did all the work for salvation, because we have a restored relationship with Him.
If you make abiding for salvation then it is logical you have added to the criteria for salvation and the the work of Christ Jesus is insufficient to save.
@keepingthingsreal, thanks for the conversation. Good day to you.
@keepingthingsreal, not going to argue about it anymore. Quite frankly, it’s a waste of time as we both believe we are correct and we both believe the other is incorrect. We aren’t going to convince the other and won’t agree, so I’m going to part ways on it here. My conscience won’t allow me to use musical instruments in worship for a variety of reasons. I’m convicted not to use them. Reasons of which I don’t have enough space to post, and more than likely it will not be read due to the length. It’s no use continuing to talk about something when both our minds are made up. More than likely we won’t understand the other’s position, and that’s why a lot of conversations are fruitless. Have a good rest of your week.
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Do you see the word “reject” in my post?? Your words, not mine. I don’t have time to argue over “ he said, she said.” How about discussing Hebrews 7, how the old law has been changed and Hebrews 8:13 how that same law is OBSOLETE and VANISHING AWAY? Or how God “TAKES AWAY the first ( Old law, old covenant, Testament) so that he might establish the second ( New testament). Hebrews 10:9. And how Jesus has given us a BETTER COVENANT Hebrews 8:22. Now if the New Testament that Jesus gave us is BETTER than the Old Testament, why would I choose to follow Psalms 150 over and instead of what Jesus says in Ephesians 5:19 or Colossians 3:16?? Jesus says, “ There is an ANNULLING of the former commandment 7:18 (priesthood here but also circumcision, feast Days, new moons, Sabbaths, meats, etc. Col. 2:12-14), and “ there is the bringing in of a BETTER HOPE by which we draw near to God.” Hebrews 7:19.
This “BETTER COVENANT was established UPON BETTER PROMISES, (7:22). for if that FIRST COVENANT (Old Testament) had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a SECOND, ( New Testament). 8:7 God goes on to say that He will make a NEW COVENANT ( New Testament) with then that is not like the one that He made with their Jewish fathers when they left Egypt, on Mount Sinai where Moses got the 10 commandments and the law for the Jews. His New Law will not be like the old one in the Old Testament. Now what is becoming OBSOLETE AND GROWING OLD IS READY TO VANISH AWAY.”
In light of these scriptures and more in the book of Galations, where He says if you try to be SAVED by that old OBSOLETE law “YOU ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.” 5:4. Why would you choose to practice and keep those old practices under the Old Testament in Psalm 150 and REJECT what God tells you to do in Ephesians 5:18 and Colossians 3:16? Because God tells you to make melody in your HEART—not on an instrument.
Explain what THOSE verses mean please, in relation to the Old Testament. AND EXPLAIN why you INSIST on holding on to and BINDING an Old Testament passage, that is no longer “valid or in Use” ( definition of OBSOLETE) when the Holy Spirit tells you they are no longer in effect and won’t “justify” or save anyone. Are you not being foolish to hold on to something OBSOLETE ? God says those practices have “VANISHED AWAY.”
The Old Testament, with all of its laws and practices is “ old”, Obsolete”, 8:13, has been ANNULLED, 7:18, and has “VANISHED AWAY.” 8:13. What else can God say ? If you won’t accept His Word, John 12:48 says that same word which you reject will judge you in the last day.
Now who is rejecting God’s word—you or me?
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Seriously, if you were trying to put me to sleep with this, then you literally almost succeeded.
Are you finished making things up yet?
You are the one who needs to prove that music was limited to the law, and you have not even come close to doing so. The things under the law which have become obsolete were shadows or foreshadowings of things that would come under the New Testament. Go ahead. Here is your big chance. Show us where musical instruments under the Old Testament were but shadows of better things to come. You will never be able to do so, so stop deluding yourself into believing otherwise. You are certainly not fooling me.
By the way, the law was not given until the children of Israel came near Mt. Sinai, and this happened prior to the giving of the law.
Exo 15:20
And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
Exo 15:21
And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
Prior to the law, the children of Israel worshipped the LORD with music and song.
How does that grab you?
Finally, you are reading things into the New Testament verses which they simply do not say. In other words, nowhere do they actually forbid musical accompaniment with singing.
This ends our latest reality check.
Are you finished making things up yet?
You are the one who needs to prove that music was limited to the law, and you have not even come close to doing so. The things under the law which have become obsolete were shadows or foreshadowings of things that would come under the New Testament. Go ahead. Here is your big chance. Show us where musical instruments under the Old Testament were but shadows of better things to come. You will never be able to do so, so stop deluding yourself into believing otherwise. You are certainly not fooling me.
By the way, the law was not given until the children of Israel came near Mt. Sinai, and this happened prior to the giving of the law.
Exo 15:20
And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
Exo 15:21
And Miriam answered them, Sing ye to the LORD, for he hath triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea.
Prior to the law, the children of Israel worshipped the LORD with music and song.
How does that grab you?
Finally, you are reading things into the New Testament verses which they simply do not say. In other words, nowhere do they actually forbid musical accompaniment with singing.
This ends our latest reality check.
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Hummm….and still you do not explain the scriptures I used. Any comment on Hebrews 8:13? The word “shadows” or “foreshadows” is not in those scriptures. The Holy Spirit is talking about a “COVENANT” also translated “TESTAMENT.” Your explanation is completely false and made up! I see the word “COVENANT in that verse but nothing about “shadows” and foreshadows.” Something is OBSOLETE AND VANISHING AWAY” but it’s not “shadows. It’s a TESTAMENT” that is vanishing away. Your attempt to answer 8:13 is completely made up! Besides being obviously wrong, it’s not even close.
Something was “ANNULLED” in 7:18 and it wasn’t a “shadow.” It was an Old Testament COMMANDMENT.! And it wasn’t just that one. Many other examples of commandments that were in that “testament” were “taken away”, “annulled”, and vanished away according to Colossians 2:14-16, and Galations 4:6, 5:10.
Hebrews talks about “COVENANTS” ( testaments) NOT “shadows”in those verses I gave. In Galations, Paul uses the word “law”, “old law”or just simply “the law.”
Paul says a man is not “justified” or saved by the works of “the law”, (Old testament law) but he is saved by faith in Jesus Christ. This book is constantly CONTRASTING the Old Testament LAW with the New Testament faith in Christ. Galations 2:16
3:2- he asks, “Did you receive the (Holy) Spirit by the works of the (old) law or by the hearing of faith ( New Testament)?
3:19- “What purpose then does the (old) “law” serve? It was added because of transgressions UNTIL THE SEED SHOULD COME”! Galations 3:16 tells us that the “Seed” is Christ. So the old law was only in force, in effect, and binding on people UNTILL JESUS CAME and died on the cross. Jesus “nailed” those old laws to His cross. Col. 2:14-16.That’s why it is now obsolete and has vanished away; because we have Jesus and a new law of FAITH. Jesus gives us all we need. What do we need in that old law? Is there something Jesus has not given us that we NEED in the Old Testament. No! I know you say things like “I am saved by faith alone in Christ alone.” You don’t really mean that if you think you still have to have the Old Testament to justify you and your practices.
3:24- says that the Old Testament law was OUR TUTOR to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith (Jesus); but AFTER FAITH HAS COME, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A TUTOR!!!!!!!” That is saying WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE OLD TESTAMENT. Do you see the word “shadows” anywhere in all this? No! That’s silly. He’s not talking about “shadows!” He’s talking about LAWS, commandments like “circumcision” which he says is nothing under the law of Faith, the law of Christ in the New Testament. Read 5:6
Finally, Paul says if you try to use the old law to justify yourself, YOU ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE. I think, since you are the one trying to justify your position from the old law, he is talking about you.
Now, you not only have all of the scriptures in Hebrews to explain— which you haven’t done— you also have all of the ones in Galations to explain. Will you do it? I doubt it.
There is nothing to explain at my end because your whole premise is false. In other words, you have yet to prove, nor will you ever be able to, that musical instruments accompanying singing was merely part of the law. I have already shown you, in the case of Miriam and the children of Israel, that it preceded the law, and you have shut your eyes to this reality. I have also previously shown that musical instruments accompany singing in heaven itself in New Testament times, and you have once again ignored this reality.
The only thing that you have truly demonstrated here is your stubborn persistence in peddling a lie. Worse still, all under the delusion of rightly dividing God's word which you have both ignored and added to.
May God grant you repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth.
The only thing that you have truly demonstrated here is your stubborn persistence in peddling a lie. Worse still, all under the delusion of rightly dividing God's word which you have both ignored and added to.
May God grant you repentance to the acknowledgement of the truth.
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