Actually it doesn't apply to your viewpoint but I won't waste the time explaining and there's nothing to say both Adam and Eve did not see the fruit as being good before. Were not told specifically how long they would have been looking at the tree before being removed from the Garden and the Jews believe Adam could have lived there almost 30+ years because it matches the timelines in their own history.
Can We Really Exercise Free Will?
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Eve made a judgement call based on what the serpent told her. No-one twisted her arm. it was her choice. People believe lies all the time. If what we believe, even a lie, was dependent upon the will of another, the the Lord would be wrong to judge anyone.
Your answer is little more then "the devil made me do it".
Your answer is little more then "the devil made me do it".
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Well you don't have to rely on the fables of the Pharisees to come to the easy conclusion that the reason Eve saw the fruit as good and that it would make her wise and that she desired it is because of what the serpent tells her directly before, and confirmed by both her words and God's judgment directly after.
Well she still ended up having to die for eating the fruit so it's not like she's totally blameless, but you can't say she ate of it 100% voluntarily or of freewill, she ate because indeed the serpent tricked her and that's why he's called the Devil. Again the error of thinking God is ever in error is itself a massive error, God is the only one with a will and a right to do literally anything, whenever he makes a judgment his judgment is correct.
Well she still ended up having to die for eating the fruit so it's not like she's totally blameless, but you can't say she ate of it 100% voluntarily or of freewill, she ate because indeed the serpent tricked her and that's why he's called the Devil. Again the error of thinking God is ever in error is itself a massive error, God is the only one with a will and a right to do literally anything, whenever he makes a judgment his judgment is correct.
Jibe is a verb that means to agree or be in harmony with something. On the other hand, jive is a noun referring to a style of lively music and dance associated with swing
Declaring hell to be just does not explain the rationale for harmonizing/jibing it with divine love.
Have you ever considered that saying "God did not give A&E free will" contradicts saying "they ate the forbidden fruit"?
Please try again.
Declaring hell to be just does not explain the rationale for harmonizing/jibing it with divine love.
Have you ever considered that saying "God did not give A&E free will" contradicts saying "they ate the forbidden fruit"?
Please try again.
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Ah okay, never heard of jibe before.
Eternal damnation is a reality and the scriptures are abundantly clear about this.
Have you considered that just by being forbidden that alone means there is no freewill. Firstly because God didn't give them a choice to eat or not to eat, he you know, forbade them to eat of the tree. Secondly God told them what the consequences would be and they were most certainly not free from those consequences. Thirdly even when they ate they did not eat out of their freewill, Eve had to be beguiled into eating it by the serpent which point has been exhausted pretty thoroughly in posts prior.
In terms of trying, well the story is already written. We are quickly approaching the inevitable destiny of all freewill topics where we will exhaust every example that shows there is no freewill even the topic itself has a predictable script and destiny that will run its course every single time without fail lol.
Eternal damnation is a reality and the scriptures are abundantly clear about this.
Have you considered that just by being forbidden that alone means there is no freewill. Firstly because God didn't give them a choice to eat or not to eat, he you know, forbade them to eat of the tree. Secondly God told them what the consequences would be and they were most certainly not free from those consequences. Thirdly even when they ate they did not eat out of their freewill, Eve had to be beguiled into eating it by the serpent which point has been exhausted pretty thoroughly in posts prior.
In terms of trying, well the story is already written. We are quickly approaching the inevitable destiny of all freewill topics where we will exhaust every example that shows there is no freewill even the topic itself has a predictable script and destiny that will run its course every single time without fail lol.
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It's still the making a choice thing GWH, seems he created them knowing the pain and grief for Him and us that would ensue.
He didn't create automatons but humans have insufficient personal power to exert free will, even "dictators" need enablers.
However, God knows all and everything is to his glory, think the payoff to pain ratio must be worth all the grief which ensued.
He didn't create automatons but humans have insufficient personal power to exert free will, even "dictators" need enablers.
However, God knows all and everything is to his glory, think the payoff to pain ratio must be worth all the grief which ensued.
Frankly Adam and Eve are such a cliche that always come up in destroying out the premise of freewill that it is rather very boring to me. I thought my example of Joseph and his dream and his brothers that I made at the first was better. Something a little bit fresher and able to not only decimate the ideology of freewill, but really to expand upon the greater and more mysterious and beautiful topic of destiny and how God can and does even use those who oppose his will to ultimately carry out his will and bind them to inescapable destiny.
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Do you have a link to it? Actually, don't think you have been that heavy duty on comments in this post, should be able to find it if you don't.
We might both be the type to really appreciate comments that float our boat, even if we often disagree with another user? Variety is the spice of life, like interesting comments whether i agree with them or not.
We might both be the type to really appreciate comments that float our boat, even if we often disagree with another user? Variety is the spice of life, like interesting comments whether i agree with them or not.
Can we really exercise free will?
God could have created automated robots
He could have forced us to obey.
God could have forced the universe to praise him continually like a dictator
But that is not love.
God knew the beginning from the end when He gave us free will and He knew we would use it to sin. Knowing that sin would result God knew it would cost His Son. God was willing to allow free will even at the cost of giving His son on the cross.
If we do not have free will, then whoever is controlling us is guilty of sin.
Free Will makes evil possible, but it is also the only thing that makes love, goodness or joy that is of any true worth.
We must be free to voluntarily love our creator. Happiness that is forced is not real happiness.
We are createred with free will. We become slaves to sin but even then Jesus promises to set us free.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
God could have created automated robots
He could have forced us to obey.
God could have forced the universe to praise him continually like a dictator
But that is not love.
God knew the beginning from the end when He gave us free will and He knew we would use it to sin. Knowing that sin would result God knew it would cost His Son. God was willing to allow free will even at the cost of giving His son on the cross.
If we do not have free will, then whoever is controlling us is guilty of sin.
Free Will makes evil possible, but it is also the only thing that makes love, goodness or joy that is of any true worth.
We must be free to voluntarily love our creator. Happiness that is forced is not real happiness.
We are createred with free will. We become slaves to sin but even then Jesus promises to set us free.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
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Page 6, Post #112.
Well sorry to disappoint you, but it might just be you in that boat. To be really just be forward, I typically just throw my initial post to a BDF topic directly addressing the OP and then usually it turns into the reply chain and so I just merely reply out of courtesy until it either just devolves too far past the topic or the point gets so basically exhausted that I just am very monotonously repeating myself. To be really cut and dry about it, nothing anyone has said, both correctly or incorrectly, is anything new. The topic about the error of freewill itself and the side tangents are actually pretty common on this forum and other religious circles. I will probably just retire from the topic soon barring any interesting reply since it will just inevitably be destined to begin to loop into itself.
Well sorry to disappoint you, but it might just be you in that boat. To be really just be forward, I typically just throw my initial post to a BDF topic directly addressing the OP and then usually it turns into the reply chain and so I just merely reply out of courtesy until it either just devolves too far past the topic or the point gets so basically exhausted that I just am very monotonously repeating myself. To be really cut and dry about it, nothing anyone has said, both correctly or incorrectly, is anything new. The topic about the error of freewill itself and the side tangents are actually pretty common on this forum and other religious circles. I will probably just retire from the topic soon barring any interesting reply since it will just inevitably be destined to begin to loop into itself.
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Re "Eternal damnation is a reality and the scriptures are abundantly clear about this.": Not really, regarding this and many doctrines. Hence the bulk of CC and the need for systematic Bible study, difficult though it may be.
Re "Have you considered that just by being forbidden that alone means there is no freewill. Firstly because God didn't give them a choice to eat or not to eat, he you know, forbade them to eat of the tree. Secondly God told them what the consequences would be and they were most certainly not free from those consequences.": Yes, I have, and this is what I concluded:
People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?
God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.
Even if God were to prove Himself to skeptics by means of a miracle, they might believe for awhile and then as their memories began to fade they would probably think that God had died and revert to their former doubt—necessitating an endless string of miracles for each generation (recapitulating the story of the Israelites on the way to Canaan after the exodus from Egypt).
However, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken, but it does mean that we walk by faith, not by proof regarding ultimate reality, which allows souls to doubt the existence of both God and hell and thus choose what to believe.
God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per EX 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in ACTS 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ. Miracles are rare (not normative). God's persuasion involves education or teaching souls their need for Him, which requires recording His Word in Scripture.
Re "Have you considered that just by being forbidden that alone means there is no freewill. Firstly because God didn't give them a choice to eat or not to eat, he you know, forbade them to eat of the tree. Secondly God told them what the consequences would be and they were most certainly not free from those consequences.": Yes, I have, and this is what I concluded:
People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?
God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.
Even if God were to prove Himself to skeptics by means of a miracle, they might believe for awhile and then as their memories began to fade they would probably think that God had died and revert to their former doubt—necessitating an endless string of miracles for each generation (recapitulating the story of the Israelites on the way to Canaan after the exodus from Egypt).
However, for reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken, but it does mean that we walk by faith, not by proof regarding ultimate reality, which allows souls to doubt the existence of both God and hell and thus choose what to believe.
God’s normative means of conversion is persuasion rather than coercion (MT 12:39, 24:24, 1CR 1:22-23). This is seen very clearly in Jesus’ lament over the obstinacy of Jerusalem (MT 23:37). Two unusual theophanies included when God appeared to Moses (in a burning bush per EX 3:2-6), whom God wanted to establish the Jewish lineage for the Messiah (OT), and to Saul/Paul (as the resurrected Jesus in ACTS 9:3-6), whom God chose to establish the NT church of Christ. Miracles are rare (not normative). God's persuasion involves education or teaching souls their need for Him, which requires recording His Word in Scripture.
I seems to me YOU do. You people can't seem to grasp free will DOES NOT = choice. Period. So your argument falls flat because no one is saying we don't have choice. I'm starting to think it's a spiritual thing and those who have not been born again in truth just CANNOT see it. It's just not possible. I just can not understand how this flies so far over your head. That goes for everyone that let their pride take over and have to add "our choice" into the mix as a requirement for salvation, that our choice is a boast worthy act on our part that God doesn't get the glory for. If we choose to be saved then we can choose to be unsaved. Neither is true. I think it's you that's confused and every one of the CDSC (Calvinist Derangement Syndrome Cult) as well.
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