Catholicism vs Protestantism

[jaybo]

The Church did not sell indulgences. That was a Protestant lie which is still perpetuated.

Without some evidence to back up your statement you cannot be believed. There is a great deal of information about the church selling indulgences. The first known use of plenary indulgences was in 1095 when Pope Urban II remitted all penance of persons who participated in the crusades and who confessed their sins. Later, the indulgences were also offered to those who couldn't go on the Crusades but offered cash contributions to the effort instead.

Why would Pope Pius V abolish the sale of indulgences in 1567 if it had never happened?

You should do some research instead of just making false claims.

 

[Benadam]

I certainly wouldn't dispute that, especially since the Bible contains verses like this one

Seek his will in all you do, and he will show you which path to take.
https://biblehub.com/proverbs/3-6.htm

but I think it's interesting that Bible passages on subjects like slavery, which the Bible supports (slaves obey your masters) are not seen as part of God's truth by Christians today,
both Catholic and Protestant.

If the Hebrews had enforced the ban on the conquered nations as God prescribed slavery wouldn't have taken root in western societies.

 

[Benadam]

This is what the bible actually says about itself:

All Scripture is inspired by God.
It is to be used for doctrine; knowing what to believe.
Reproof; to express blame or disapproval against something that is in opposition to God's truth.
Correction; the action or process of correcting something in opposition to God's truth.
Instruction in righteousness; a direction or order that requires obedience in order to be in right standing with God.
That the man of God may be perfect; throughly furnished unto all good works.


"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. " 2 Tim 3:16-17

Without some evidence to back up your statement you cannot be believed. There is a great deal of information about the church selling indulgences. The first known use of plenary indulgences was in 1095 when Pope Urban II remitted all penance of persons who participated in the crusades and who confessed their sins. Later, the indulgences were also offered to those who couldn't go on the Crusades but offered cash contributions to the effort instead.

Why would Pope Pius V abolish the sale of indulgences in 1567 if it had never happened?

You should do some research instead of just making false claims.

If it were the Church selling indulgences there would be no need for the Church to correct those who were.

 

[jaybo]

If it were the Church selling indulgences there would be no need for the Church to correct those who were.

This makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that the Catholic Church has no need to correct itself when errors are made? Again, why would Pope Pius V abolish the sale of indulgences by the Catholic Church if they weren't selling them?

Or are you saying that selling indulgences is okay and the (infallible) Pope was wrong?

 

[Benadam]

This makes absolutely no sense. Are you saying that the Catholic Church has no need to correct itself when errors are made? Again, why would Pope Pius V abolish the sale of indulgences by the Catholic Church if they weren't selling them?

Or are you saying that selling indulgences is okay and the (infallible) Pope was wrong?

no, I'm saying there were Priests selling indulgences by distorting what the Church taught about indulgences. One of the requirements of an indulgence is alms. Alms to the poor became alms to the parish or diocese which was ok but that was too much temptation for some money hungry Priests and the alms became a payment to the Priests rather than a sacrificial gift to support the poor or the Church.

 

[jaybo]

You pose a false dilemma

False to you perhaps, but that's a poor response. Why won't you answer my question?

 

[jaybo]

no, I'm saying there were Priests selling indulgences by distorting what the Church taught about indulgences. One of the requirements of an indulgence is alms. Alms to the poor became alms to the parish or diocese which was ok but that was too much temptation for some money hungry Priests and the alms became a payment to the Priests rather than a sacrificial gift to support the poor or the Church.

So we agree: Pope Pius V was right to abolish the sale of indulgences by the Catholic priests -- part of the Catholic church.

 

[Dan_473]

In my opinion, there are 2 tradition we are talking about here,
1 Christian tradition like pray to God is ok
2. Pagan tradition like pray to queen of heaven is satanic

I think praying to God would be a practice of something stated in the scriptures
9. Pray like this: `Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.
(Matthew, 6)

are there Christian practices not stated in Scripture that you or the Christians you gather with have?

 

[Dan_473]

The *tradition* (if you can even call it that) was of the apostolic churches.

I'm not sure why there would be a question about why it wouldn't be called tradition?

once the last scripture was written, the practices of the churches were no longer recorded in the scriptures.
any reference to them would qualify as tradition, imo.

 

[Bede]

False to you perhaps, but that's a poor response. Why won't you answer my question?

Becuase you posing two options one of which is not true.
For example - Scripture or invented Christian "facts"?

Then you ask
There are those of us who believe God's Word is complete and sufficient and there are others who don't believe that. Which camp are you in? But youn assume that God's Word is synony,mous with the Bible.

 

[Bede]

So we agree: Pope Pius V was right to abolish the sale of indulgences by the Catholic priests -- part of the Catholic church.

Part of the Catholic Church (a tiny part) in not the Church.
There have always been abuses (of different sorts) among a few Catholics in the Church. It is inevitable -we are all sinfiul people.
But the Church steps in to correct those abuses. It has never endorsed them.

Moreover explicitly banning the sale -that should never have happened - is not abolishing. Abolishing implies it was an approved practice, which it wasn't

 

[Benadam]

So we agree: Pope Pius V was right to abolish the sale of indulgences by the Catholic priests -- part of the Catholic church.

Those Priests are members of the Church but are not the Church.

 

[Jackson123]

The Church has never sold indulgences (what you call forgiveness certificate).

This is from Catholic answer

Quote
Myth 6: A person can buy indulgences.
The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, “in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia).
End quote
Let me repeat this sentence my brother bede

Pope Prius V canceled all grants of indulgence involving any fee.

Canceled, mean it was happen before canceled

 

[Bede]

This is from Catholic answer

Quote
Myth 6: A person can buy indulgences.
The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, “in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia).
End quote
Let me repeat this sentence my brother bede

Pope Prius V canceled all grants of indulgence involving any fee.

Canceled, mean it was happen before canceled

From Cattholic Answers
Myth 7: A person used to be able to buy indulgences.
One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."

 

[Jackson123]

I think praying to God would be a practice of something stated in the scriptures
9. Pray like this: `Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy.
(Matthew, 6)

are there Christian practices not stated in Scripture that you or the Christians you gather with have?

Bible not only teach that prayer

I Tim 2
2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Jackson123]

From Cattholic Answers
Myth 7: A person used to be able to buy indulgences.
One never could "buy" indulgences. The financial scandal surrounding indulgences, the scandal that gave Martin Luther an excuse for his heterodoxy, involved alms—indulgences in which the giving of alms to some charitable fund or foundation was used as the occasion to grant the indulgence. There was no outright selling of indulgences. The Catholic Encyclopedia states: "t is easy to see how abuses crept in. Among the good works which might be encouraged by being made the condition of an indulgence, almsgiving would naturally hold a conspicuous place. . . . It is well to observe that in these purposes there is nothing essentially evil. To give money to God or to the poor is a praiseworthy act, and, when it is done from right motives, it will surely not go unrewarded."

This statement contradict the statement I quote above.
If the church never grant indulgence involving money, why pope Prius 5 canceled?
I have to say sorry that it prove lie to me

 

[Jackson123]

We believe that the apostle Paul can hear our requests.
The story of Abraham and the rich man and the other scripture I gave shows that.

That does not mean he will answer us or talk back to us. I don't know if he would if we asked.
That is up to God. But all we do is ask for his intercession.
That is why we pray to Saints in heaven, not to have a chat.

You believe Paul able to hear and talk back to us
You believe Paul still love us and bear fruit

Why don't you believe Paul willing to talk back to us

You love your children don't you? If they ask you a question, say

Dad, can I kill myself? Will you answer them or doesn't say anything like not heard their question?

 

[Dan_473]

Bible not only teach that prayer

I Tim 2
2 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

yes, there are many examples that could be used!

I love that exhortation in 1 Timothy 2!

 

[Jackson123]

This statement contradict the statement I quote above.
If the church never grant indulgence involving money, why pope Prius 5 canceled?
I have to say sorry that it prove lie to me

American air flight at 5 pm is canceled.

It mean was scheduled

The grant of indulgence involve money is canceled

It mean was happen

 

[Jackson123]

yes, there are many examples that could be used!

I love that exhortation in 1 Timothy 2!

But none pray to Moses or death saint in the bible