Christian holidays vs Biblical holidays

[posthuman]

Let no one OUTSIDE of the faith judge believers on what they practice; that the body of Christ is the only one AUTHORIZED to do it if anyone were to do it. Whether or how they should is NOT the point of Colossians 2. The point of Colossians 2 is UTTER RESTRICTION of the non-believer to do it. Completely lock the traditions of men OUT of the faith.

this makes no sense at all given that the rationale for the command not to allow yourself to be judged is based on having been made whole in Christ through faith.

your position, which you seem to be now backpedaling, is ((was)) that Paul is authorizing the body of Christ to judge each other over matters of Mosaic dietary laws and ritual activities of appointed days.

that directly contradicts Romans 14, where the argument is specifically not to judge one another, with diet being a particular example.

 

[posthuman]

If you truly wanted that you'd make a counter point and then wait for a reply. We're both well aware of proper argument.

i ain't got all day.

and there's already 600 pages of this in another thread, and you're already contradicting yourself and scripture and resorting to fussing about some kind of imaginary 'debate format'

"have a nice day"

 

[Yahshua]

i ain't got all day.

and there's already 600 pages of this in another thread, and you're already contradicting yourself and scripture and resorting to fussing about some kind of imaginary 'debate format'

"have a nice day"

Then you've proven you don't want an argument or even discussion but are simply another loud-talker (...but with fingers; maybe thumbs??). I've got all the time in the world for discussing the Lord's ways with those who actually want to reason.

"You too, btw."

 

[posthuman]

Then you've proven you don't want an argument or even discussion but are simply another loud-talker (...but with fingers; maybe thumbs??). I've got all the time in the world for discussing the Lord's ways with those who actually want to reason.

"You too, btw."

as you said, i've written a lot in reply already.
and that you want time.

so there's plenty for you to think about as it is.
i've recently spent many months on this topic and you haven't said anything i haven't previously heard. i have much more to say, but there's no point if you reject the fundamentals, and no point in writing 11,000 words that no one will read.

 

[Dan_473]

Christianity was introduced in Haiti in the 1400's. This country, according to the State Department, is roughly 90% Christian today.

The Episcopal church was introduced in Haiti in 1861 by a group of 110 African-Americans immigrants to Haiti. They established many churches and good schools, including the famous St. Vincent School, for many years, the only school for special aid children in Haiti, College St. Pierre, Episcopal University & the Holy Trinity School, which has been the premiere school of music in Haiti.

Protestant missionary groups have been in Haiti since the early 1800s. They also put emphasis on education and built some top schools, including Adventist University & Academy, College Bird, College Canado-Haitien, and etc. The first protestants missions were Methodists (1807), Episcopalians (1861) and Baptists with the largest growth. The adventists arrived later on in 1879, Assemblies of God (1945), Nazarean Church (1948), Salvation Army (1950), Pentecostal church (1962), Mennonite Church (1966) and Church of God (1969). The first Lutheran church in Haiti was founded in 1980. Protestantism has a great appeal to the lower masses, for many reasons, including use of Creole in services; many translated hymns address the people's dire economic and social conditions; more open participation in services through testimonies; and attaining of leadership positions among others. (Haiti Christianity.org)

The odds of a single Haitian not being able to find a Bible in Haiti are ZERO. But Mainstream Preachers have been using them as a funding source since the early 1900's.

Personally I think it is a huge scam to preach to others that Jesus wants us to give money to these ridiculously rich Mainstream Christian Franchises that have received Billions and Billions of dollars over the last 100 years from their "Missions" in Haiti. But the optics are hard to deny when they use pictures of starving children and preach that God can't save them unless you sacrifice your boat or piano and send the church even more cash.

It sure looks good on paper to say you sacrificed a boat or a piano for yourself to help bring even more Bibles to this Christian majority country. It sure does look righteous.

But it seems to me Jesus already addressed "these kind of works" in Matt. 7. And His instructions on how to share His Word don't seem to align with the business plan of many of these religious franchises.

Matt. 10:
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

Much more profit in using these cities as a funding source.

Just 10% of the wealth of only the top 20 Preachers in Mainstream Christianity today would buy everyone in Haiti a dozen Bibles. But then how would they entice you to send more of your money to them?

Sending Bibles to Haiti***********

22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

10 The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
11 The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

How can a person help anyone if they don't believe His Words.

I know personally the missionary in question. She isn't part of a religious franchise, nor does she live a wealthy lifestyle. the stories she tells are from her first-hand experiences. if she says there were people in Haiti who needed Bibles, I have no reason to doubt her.

you say that Christianity was introduced in 1400. is it the kind of Christianity that you talk about? or Catholicism? I was under the impression that you did not consider Catholic Doctrine Christian.

I suspect Haiti is a country of significant class distinction. There's probably a big difference between those who can attend the premier School of Music, and those whose idea of a house is a couple of wooden skids and a piece of corrugated tin.

John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+3&version=NIV

it's a matter of conscience. are you aware of anyone around you who lacks those things? and maybe shirts and food are examples, maybe this would apply to people who have an abundance of other things as well?

 

[Yahshua]

as you said, i've written a lot in reply already.
and that you want time.

so there's plenty for you to think about as it is.
i've recently spent many months on this topic and you haven't said anything i haven't previously heard. i have much more to say, but there's no point if you reject the fundamentals, and no point in writing 11,000 words that no one will read.

What I said was, posting a reply to address a point and then waiting for a response before posting another point, would be evidence one actually wants a discussion; a back and forth. It works the same in real life. Drowning out a person only proves one doesn't want to hear what the other has to say anymore. If it was your reply style at the beginning of our exchange then I wouldn't think much of it. But it changed.

...and it's good to know you've spent many months on the topic. Not sure if you mean that in a positive way or negative way. But just like your comment that there are 600 pages on this topic, I'm not sure what that has to do with others reading it and why do you feel I or anyone else is forcing you particularly to even engage in this thread? The thread isn't titled: "Hey Postman - Christian Holidays or Biblical Holidays?" And I don't think you're tasked with server/website upkeep (though I could be wrong). And even if you were, you're still not obligated to defend the position you're holding, but you willingly engage...yet you express exhaustion/contempt (maybe poor choice of words; i don't know that it is)? We both are well aware that there are plenty here that would/will take up the mantle for both of our positions respectively.

If it's any consolation, I read every word of any detailed reply posted back to me no matter how long it is. If they took the time to write it all out to me, I take the time to read it and consider it.

It's what I would have done to me.

"Do unto others..."

---

But yes. The fundamentals are important. I agree.

The foundation is Christ. I agree.

 

[Studyman]

physical circumcision was a direct instruction from the mouth of God.

so was the literal sacrifice of a literal lamb for seder. however 1 Corinthians 5:7 calls Christ our passover lamb - what does that mean with regards to whether we are currently commanded to sacrifice a different lamb in His stead?

The Law and Prophets foretold of a time when God Himself would forgive sins, the purpose of animal sacrifice in the first place.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Law and Prophets foretold of a time when "eunuchs, Gentiles, would be gathered into God's Fold.

Duet. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Jer. 31:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: (Jews?) I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

The Bible also foretells of the future of His Sabbath and "Holy" days.

Is. 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

So when a person considers ALL of God's Word as Jesus instructs, it provides a clearer picture of God's Will. When a person just uses scripture to justify religious traditions, and ignores the rest, even a thief can find justification for his sin.

1 Cor. 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

Jesus told us how to observe Passover "After those days" and it didn't include killing an animal.

 

[gb9]

The Law and Prophets foretold of a time when God Himself would forgive sins, the purpose of animal sacrifice in the first place.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The Law and Prophets foretold of a time when "eunuchs, Gentiles, would be gathered into God's Fold.

Duet. 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Jer. 31:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: (Jews?) I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

The Bible also foretells of the future of His Sabbath and "Holy" days.

Is. 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
18 For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

So when a person considers ALL of God's Word as Jesus instructs, it provides a clearer picture of God's Will. When a person just uses scripture to justify religious traditions, and ignores the rest, even a thief can find justification for his sin.

1 Cor. 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

Jesus told us how to observe Passover "After those days" and it didn't include killing an animal.

when a person accepts that words have definitions, and one should use those, and not just make up their own as you do, then they will see what the Bible says. what it really says, not what you falsely claim it says.

been almost a week, no source for uncorrupted translation yet. so, you are still bearing witness of yourself, which does not count.

 

[Studyman]

I know personally the missionary in question. She isn't part of a religious franchise, nor does she live a wealthy lifestyle. the stories she tells are from her first-hand experiences. if she says there were people in Haiti who needed Bibles, I have no reason to doubt her.

you say that Christianity was introduced in 1400. is it the kind of Christianity that you talk about? or Catholicism? I was under the impression that you did not consider Catholic Doctrine Christian.

I suspect Haiti is a country of significant class distinction. There's probably a big difference between those who can attend the premier School of Music, and those whose idea of a house is a couple of wooden skids and a piece of corrugated tin.

John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+3&version=NIV

it's a matter of conscience. are you aware of anyone around you who lacks those things? and maybe shirts and food are examples, maybe this would apply to people who have an abundance of other things as well?

I posted how Jesus said to share His Word and you ignored it because it didn't line up with your religious tradition of giving money you made working on the Sabbath to random poor people. I know it clears your conscience, and looks good to religious man. But it seems Jesus taught there were more important things than sacrificing to help random poor people in His Name.

Matt. 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 Sam. 15:
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

I think it is more important to follow the instructions of the Christ in our day to day living. I don't feel comfortable sharing "alms" done on behalf of the Brethren.

I believe there is a reason Jesus said "these are My brothers and sisters".

I don't believe God instructed me to help one religion which transgresses the Commandments of God by their own religious tradition convert folks away from another religion which transgress the commandments of God by their own religious traditions.

I also understand why Jesus said:

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

We simply have a fundamental disagreement about God's Word.

That's OK Dan. Jesus said this would happen.

 

[Studyman]

when a person accepts that words have definitions, and one should use those, and not just make up their own as you do, then they will see what the Bible says. what it really says, not what you falsely claim it says.

been almost a week, no source for uncorrupted translation yet. so, you are still bearing witness of yourself, which does not count.

I have no idea what you are talking about G9. I never said the Bible was corrupted. I posted scriptures which said the Priests in charge of administering His Word's corrupted it's meaning by "omitting" parts of His Word, and adding their own "Commandments of man".

You keep babbling on about something, can you at least tell me what you are talking about, "no source for uncorrupted translation yet"?

 

[Dan_473]

I posted how Jesus said to share His Word and you ignored it because it didn't line up with your religious tradition of giving money you made working on the Sabbath to random poor people. I know it clears your conscience, and looks good to religious man. But it seems Jesus taught there were more important things than sacrificing to help random poor people in His Name.

Matt. 7:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1 Sam. 15:
22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

I think it is more important to follow the instructions of the Christ in our day to day living. I don't feel comfortable sharing "alms" done on behalf of the Brethren.

I believe there is a reason Jesus said "these are My brothers and sisters".

I don't believe God instructed me to help one religion which transgresses the Commandments of God by their own religious tradition convert folks away from another religion which transgress the commandments of God by their own religious traditions.

I also understand why Jesus said:

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

We simply have a fundamental disagreement about God's Word.

That's OK Dan. Jesus said this would happen.

I agree that we should share God's word. The subject we were talking about more specifically was what to do with one's possessions. that's why I didn't talk more about sharing God's word, because we were speaking specifically about whether or not it was good for a Christian to work to earn money to spend it on their own lusts.


I didn't say anything about working to earn money on the Sabbath in order to give it to poor people. When I talked about earning money in order to spend it on one's own lusts, I believe you gave the example of working to earn money to buy a boat so that one could go fishing. I wasn't talking about sacrificing in order to help poor people, I was talking about what one does with one's excess possessions.


I don't know why you're talking about helping one religion which transgresses the Commandments of God by their own religious tradition convert folks away from another religion which transgress the commandments of God by their own religious traditions. I probably would agree with what you say there, but it's not the subject I was talking about.


I didn't do any alms before men, if you're implying that related to the story. The $700 I was referring to would have been spent by the church, out of its budget. if it's of any interest, they decided to go ahead and buy the toy.


John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+3&version=NIV


so the subject is what does one do with one's excess possessions.


He said to them, “Beware! Keep yourselves from covetousness, for a man’s life doesn’t consist of the abundance of the things which he possesses.”



16 He spoke a parable to them, saying, “The ground of a certain rich man produced abundantly. 17 He reasoned within himself, saying, ‘What will I do, because I don’t have room to store my crops?’ 18 He said, ‘This is what I will do. I will pull down my barns, and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19 I will tell my soul, “Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years. Take your ease, eat, drink, be merry.”’



20 “But God said to him, ‘You foolish one, tonight your soul is required of you. The things which you have prepared—whose will they be?’ 21 So is he who lays up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.”



22 He said to his disciples, “Therefore I tell you, don’t be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. 23 Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing.24 Consider the ravens: they don’t sow, they don’t reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! 25 Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit[c] to his height? 26 If then you aren’t able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest?27 Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don’t toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 28 But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith?29 Don’t seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. 30 For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. 31 But seek God’s Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you. 32 Don’t be afraid, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the Kingdom.33 Sell that which you have, and give gifts to the needy. Make for yourselves purses which don’t grow old, a treasure in the heavens that doesn’t fail, where no thief approaches, neither moth destroys.34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

For you always have the poor with you, and whenever you want to, you can do them good; but you will not always have me.

 

[Bsorh]

I love this discussion. I think the strongest evidence that we should refrain from blending Pagan practices into true Christian holy days is found in the conduct of Believers and non-believers during these mixed holiday seasons. Christmas time for instance has the highest suicide rate of any time of the year which to me is hardly indicative that the Holy Spirit descends and Power upon all those who practice this holiday celebration. Even within the church unbridled materialism, gluttony, substance abuse, and deep depression are ever present during this season with many families as well as a tremendous amount of strife and contention.

 

[Dino246]

I love this discussion. I think the strongest evidence that we should refrain from blending Pagan practices into true Christian holy days is found in the conduct of Believers and non-believers during these mixed holiday seasons. Christmas time for instance has the highest suicide rate of any time of the year which to me is hardly indicative that the Holy Spirit descends and Power upon all those who practice this holiday celebration. Even within the church unbridled materialism, gluttony, substance abuse, and deep depression are ever present during this season with many families as well as a tremendous amount of strife and contention.

Does the suicide rate over the holidays have anything at all to do with the Christian message of hope in Christ, or is that, together with the strife and contention, much more likely founded in warped and world-infected expectations and desires? That is where the Gospel is needed most, and if Christmas and Easter get a few pagans into the pews to hear good news, that is reason enough to celebrate the holidays.

Does the Holy Spirit descend and empower any people who practice any holiday? There is no Scripture to suggest that He does. This is the same kind of reasoning that leads to criticizing fish for their inability to climb trees.

 

[Studyman]

Dan_473, post: 3643040, member: 190874"]

I agree that we should share God's word. The subject we were talking about more specifically was what to do with one's possessions. that's why I didn't talk more about sharing God's word, because we were speaking specifically about whether or not it was good for a Christian to work to earn money to spend it on their own lusts.

Actually the conversation started with you saying it's OK with God/Jesus to work on the Sabbath, and using Circumcision as your justification. I suggested with scripture that His Word says shouldn't do our own works, our own pleasure, our own word's on His Holy Sabbath, but to treat this day differently than the others as Jesus, the Word which became Flesh, did, and instructed. And then you said it wasn't good to enjoy the fruits of our labor any day of the Week, not just the Sabbath and used Haiti as an example of using the money from our labor for "Good" purposes instead of using the money we earned to enjoy the fruits of our labor.. As it turns out, buying a boat with money, not given us from others, but from work God provided for us to do, for a mans family to enjoy while we are waiting for His Salvation, is way more righteous, in my view, than feeding a huge religious beast that transgresses the Commandments of God by their own ancient religious traditions. That uses the name of Jesus to amass huge fortunes and power for themselves.

I believe this is why Jesus warned us to "Come out of her" and why we are taught "Come out from among them and be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing.


As I have said, we have a fundamental disagreement regarding the Word of God and I believe it centers around His Test Commandment. Everything we discuss is founded on His holy Sabbath and the justification for breaking it. If you were honest with yourself, I think you would also acknowledge this.

 

[Studyman]

Does the suicide rate over the holidays have anything at all to do with the Christian message of hope in Christ, or is that, together with the strife and contention, much more likely founded in warped and world-infected expectations and desires? That is where the Gospel is needed most, and if Christmas and Easter get a few pagans into the pews to hear good news, that is reason enough to celebrate the holidays.

Does the Holy Spirit descend and empower any people who practice any holiday? There is no Scripture to suggest that He does. This is the same kind of reasoning that leads to criticizing fish for their inability to climb trees.

Acts 5:
29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

John 14:
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Matt. 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.


I don't believe the Mainstream Preachers of His time taught the true Gospel and I don't believe the Mainstream Christian preachers of our time teach the true Gospel either.

They are both saturated with doctrines and traditions of men which Transgress the Commandments of God which is strictly forbidden by the Word of God. He said those who partook of such things would be cursed. Maybe this is why there are some who are rich in cash and worldly treasure, and others who commit suicide all in the same religion with pretty much the same doctrines.

Maybe this is why Jesus warned so much about religious man and Commanded us to "Come out of Her". Maybe if folks tried something new, like listening and obeying God, He would help them as promised?

It's just a thought.

13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

It's a long shot, but maybe the Jesus of the Bible knows what He is talking about. That is my Hope.

 

[Blik]

Keeping every day holy holds up very well in Scripture. We are bought with a price, We Are Holy to the Lord.
Which is the day when we work for ourselves?

Dan, you and I know very well your intention is not to keep very day holy and walk with the Lord daily. It is to not acknowledge the Sabbath, and that is what I responded to.

And again, your posting against scripture unless it was given after Christ living on this earth those 30 some years is just that. You know and I know that learning from this scripture that God gave does not include our changing todays language.

And for help finding scripture, there is some.

Deut. 5:14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do.

Law of the Sojourner
Num. 14 If an alien sojourns with you, or one who may be among you throughout your generations, and he wishes to make an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the Lord, just as you do so he shall do. 15 As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the Lord. 16 There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.’”

Yes, this is old but it was breathed by the very same God with the same characteristics as the God you read about in the NT. The only difference is that Christ made the offering that we use today, as scripture tells us to. We do not toss out the offering of Christ because it is of a different time, and we do not throw out what the offering was for because Christ made the offering.

 

[Dan_473]

Dan_473, post: 3643040, member: 190874"]

Actually the conversation started with you saying it's OK with God/Jesus to work on the Sabbath, and using Circumcision as your justification. I suggested with scripture that His Word says shouldn't do our own works, our own pleasure, our own word's on His Holy Sabbath, but to treat this day differently than the others as Jesus, the Word which became Flesh, did, and instructed. And then you said it wasn't good to enjoy the fruits of our labor any day of the Week, not just the Sabbath and used Haiti as an example of using the money from our labor for "Good" purposes instead of using the money we earned to enjoy the fruits of our labor.. As it turns out, buying a boat with money, not given us from others, but from work God provided for us to do, for a mans family to enjoy while we are waiting for His Salvation, is way more righteous, in my view, than feeding a huge religious beast that transgresses the Commandments of God by their own ancient religious traditions. That uses the name of Jesus to amass huge fortunes and power for themselves.

I believe this is why Jesus warned us to "Come out of her" and why we are taught "Come out from among them and be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing.


As I have said, we have a fundamental disagreement regarding the Word of God and I believe it centers around His Test Commandment. Everything we discuss is founded on His holy Sabbath and the justification for breaking it. If you were honest with yourself, I think you would also acknowledge this.

I believe the conversation started here

In The Sermon on the Mount, Jesus talked about considering the birds of the air. They don't have any barns to store food in, they gather food everyday, that is to say God feeds them everyday.



Now, if a Christian is working on the Sabbath, or any day, in order to earn money to spend it on their own lusts, then they are not living a good way.



Am I using one scripture to make void another? Not at all, I'm showing how the Christian keep the Sabbath holy, that is to say by considering the birds and the lilies.

which was to answer your question about working for money on the Sabbath. I don't mention circumcision. I do talk about working to earn money to spend it on your own lusts.


Don’t lay up treasures for yourselves on the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal;20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consume, and where thieves don’t break through and steal; 21 for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.



22 “The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is sound, your whole body will be full of light. 23 But if your eye is evil, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!



24 “No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You can’t serve both God and Mammon. 25 Therefore I tell you, don’t be anxious for your life: what you will eat, or what you will drink; nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Isn’t life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 See the birds of the sky, that they don’t sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you of much more value than they?



27 “Which of you, by being anxious, can add one moment[b] to his lifespan? 28 Why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They don’t toil, neither do they spin, 29 yet I tell you that even Solomon in all his glory was not dressed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, won’t he much more clothe you, you of little faith?



31 “Therefore don’t be anxious, saying, ‘What will we eat?’, ‘What will we drink?’ or, ‘With what will we be clothed?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things

I agree that we shouldn't do our own works, our own pleasure, our own word's on His Holy Sabbath, I would add or any other day, since we are bought with a price. I did not say it wasn't good to enjoy the fruits of our labor any day of the Week, I said we ought not to earn money to spend it on our own lusts. I agree that we ought not to feed a huge religious beast that transgresses the Commandments. that was never the issue. the issue is if you have two shirts, will you give one to a poor person who doesn't have one.


all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, isn’t the Father’s, but is the world’s.

 

[Dan_473]

Dan, you and I know very well your intention is not to keep very day holy and walk with the Lord daily. It is to not acknowledge the Sabbath, and that is what I responded to.

And again, your posting against scripture unless it was given after Christ living on this earth those 30 some years is just that. You know and I know that learning from this scripture that God gave does not include our changing todays language.

And for help finding scripture, there is some.

Deut. 5:14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do.

Law of the Sojourner
Num. 14 If an alien sojourns with you, or one who may be among you throughout your generations, and he wishes to make an offering by fire, as a soothing aroma to the Lord, just as you do so he shall do. 15 As for the assembly, there shall be one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the Lord. 16 There is to be one law and one ordinance for you and for the alien who sojourns with you.’”

Yes, this is old but it was breathed by the very same God with the same characteristics as the God you read about in the NT. The only difference is that Christ made the offering that we use today, as scripture tells us to. We do not toss out the offering of Christ because it is of a different time, and we do not throw out what the offering was for because Christ made the offering.

I believe you are mistaken. it is my intention to keep every day holy and walk with the Lord daily. I do acknowledge the Sabbath. I am not posting again scripture. I don't know what you're talking about with changing today's language.
I am not tossing out or throwing out anything from scripture.
Just before his crucifixion, Jesus tells his followers that he has more things he wants to tell them but they're not ready for it yet.

 

[Blik]

Does the suicide rate over the holidays have anything at all to do with the Christian message of hope in Christ, or is that, together with the strife and contention, much more likely founded in warped and world-infected expectations and desires? That is where the Gospel is needed most, and if Christmas and Easter get a few pagans into the pews to hear good news, that is reason enough to celebrate the holidays.

Does the Holy Spirit descend and empower any people who practice any holiday? There is no Scripture to suggest that He does. This is the same kind of reasoning that leads to criticizing fish for their inability to climb trees.

The festivals are only the symptom of a very deep problem, very like the problem that Abraham faced when he went to visit Lot. Very early in our church history, starting even with such outstanding fathers of Christianity as Origen there crept in copies of pagan worship. For thousands of years the Lord warned us against this.

When the Fathers decided for the church that no, what Paul taught meant that we could agree not to obey God's ways it was the start.

I once decided to delve into history to find out if following the rituals God gave really resulted in following God's laws. The church taught that following them only resulted in adjusting the physical world, the legalism of the law. I found that you could not find out from modern reports for the Jews mostly tossed out God's ways just as the protestant church has. It took study of Jewish colonies in the dark ages. The answer I found that yes, they worked to produce a society that was the salvation of that age, even. And with governments working against them, they prospered individually.

If we would individually decide to follow God, and not such as this twist of God as being under grace as we are means that we disregard law and such twisting of God's word, we could have a blessed life individually and our church would be the light of the world, not a place full of divorce, gossip, gays, and suicide. That requires checking all the NT tells us with what it says about it in the OT to see if we understand correctly. God agrees with God.

How the demons much gloat over us as a place their work is most successful!.

In his book "People of the Lie, Hope for Healing Human Evil" M Scott Peck gave clinical evidence that demon possessed people are attracted to the church.

Today, all the media has taken the place as our the leader for our life. Few even know scripture. There are many complete bibles printed and sold with only the NT, some include Psalms also. Children are taught early about Mother Goose and jumping over the moon, but even adults say "duhhhh" when scripture is mentioned.

Churches say they must modernize to attract young people!!! What they mean is they must turn away from God to attract them! It is the truth of God that attracts, now the church is laughed at as the ineffectual instrument it is.

 

[Dino246]

The festivals are only the symptom of a very deep problem, very like the problem that Abraham faced when he went to visit Lot. Very early in our church history, starting even with such outstanding fathers of Christianity as Origen there crept in copies of pagan worship. For thousands of years the Lord warned us against this.

When the Fathers decided for the church that no, what Paul taught meant that we could agree not to obey God's ways it was the start.

I once decided to delve into history to find out if following the rituals God gave really resulted in following God's laws. The church taught that following them only resulted in adjusting the physical world, the legalism of the law. I found that you could not find out from modern reports for the Jews mostly tossed out God's ways just as the protestant church has. It took study of Jewish colonies in the dark ages. The answer I found that yes, they worked to produce a society that was the salvation of that age, even. And with governments working against them, they prospered individually.

If we would individually decide to follow God, and not such as this twist of God as being under grace as we are means that we disregard law and such twisting of God's word, we could have a blessed life individually and our church would be the light of the world, not a place full of divorce, gossip, gays, and suicide. That requires checking all the NT tells us with what it says about it in the OT to see if we understand correctly. God agrees with God.

How the demons much gloat over us as a place their work is most successful!.

In his book "People of the Lie, Hope for Healing Human Evil" M Scott Peck gave clinical evidence that demon possessed people are attracted to the church.

Today, all the media has taken the place as our the leader for our life. Few even know scripture. There are many complete bibles printed and sold with only the NT, some include Psalms also. Children are taught early about Mother Goose and jumping over the moon, but even adults say "duhhhh" when scripture is mentioned.

Churches say they must modernize to attract young people!!! What they mean is they must turn away from God to attract them! It is the truth of God that attracts, now the church is laughed at as the ineffectual instrument it is.

It is very easy to point fingers at others and blame the ills of the church on those who don't believe/practice as "we" do. However, that has no basis in objective fact until and unless you undertake some extensive research. The fundamental problem with finger pointing is that anyone can do it, and without objective evidence, none of them are wrong! So I could just as easily point at Sabbath-keepers for polluting the gospel with law and undermining the Church by their error. Do you see my point?

The world is the way it is because men (and women) love their sin. The church is the way it is for the same reason. However, once we stop defining the ekklesia by who attends a denominational church, we might realize that the true Church is still functional. There will be unsaved, mislead, mentally ill, hurting, and demonized people until the Lord's return. Our job is to preach the gospel and live it.