Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 16, 2023

I did eventually watch the video, and noticed that he DOES believe the SEALS are opened FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (and presents reasons WHY he believes so... one of which is the "24 elders" saying "hast redeemed US... out-of EVERY" [and wearing "crowns"])...

...which I of course agree is the case (the SEALS have NOT yet been opened, and they take place within the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that 1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] speaks of, aka the 7-yr Tribulation period as we commonly call it, FOLLOWING "our Rapture" [the SEQUENCE ISSUES Paul addresses]).

What I can't say FOR CERTAIN is whether he (P.S.) sees the SEALS as equivalent to "the beginning of birth PANGS" that Jesus spoke of (I kind of get the impression that he MIGHT), or whether or not he sees "our Rapture" being spoken of anywhere in Jesus' Olivet Discourse (perhaps he doesn't, and if that's the case as to what he believes, I AGREE)... I'm not really sure what his perspective is on these two matters.

[the FIRST "birth PANG" Jesus mentions happens at the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period, per Paul's wording in 1Th5:1-3, and what happens at that point is the rider on the white horse WITH A BOW (often meaning "deception") which is "the man of sin BE REVEALED" at the START of that TIME-PERIOD]

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 16, 2023

presidente said:

Just asking for clarification here ^ (since we recently made posts about the rider on the white horse being "the man of sin BE REVEALED"--meaning, the rider on the white horse WITH A BOW, in Rev6--the FIRST SEAL)... I'm pretty sure that in the above quote ^ (bolded), that you mean the one in Rev19, right? (re: Jesus Himself). So, yeah, if that's what you are referring to here, yes, I see this Rev19 passage as "the MANIFESTATION [2Th2:8b] of the presence / parousia / coming of Him" when "EVERY EYE shall SEE Him"

(2Th2:1 "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" will not involve ANYONE ELSE except US [hence, Paul does NOT use the word "MANIFESTATION [of His presence / parousia]" in this verse

], and the location is "TO the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*"... whereas, the "gather" [ONE-BY-ONE] that happens in Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13,9 ["GREAT" trumpet] involves them being gathered into one place UPON THE EARTH [at which "HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS" to gather them], "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"--ALL references to Jesus speaking of His return or coming [spoken of PRIOR TO and INCLUDING His Olivet-Discourse-response Matt24-25] SPEAKS OF THIS... See also Isa24:23)

pablocito · Jan 16, 2023

Walter said:

Sunday 12-18-22 1st. Day Of The Weekly Cycle, Kislev 23, 5783 86th. Fall Day

Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine

The escapist belief of the “rapture” has been employed by Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Jerry Falwell, Hal Lindsy, and Tim LaHaye in his series of novels built around the subject. Its supporters have lied, twisted, distorted, and misrepresented the true origin of this fatal belief.

The rapture belief entered the Plymouth Brethren through John Nelson Darby, their most influential prophecy teacher. Its origin traces back to 1830 when a certain Margaret McDonald had a “vision” of the end-times. She had been ill and bed-ridden for a year and a half. She read Matthew 24:40 about someone being “taken”, and then read in Thess.2:7 about a “restraining” influence being “taken out of the way.” She put the two passages together and reasoned that the “one” taken out of the way, before the rising of the Antichrist, must be the church! Darby and others subsequently took up this belief, and he popularized it in the Scofield Reference Bible, from where it has entered mainstream Protestantism like a “thief in the night,” catching millions unawares.

Margaret’s “revelation” has led a charmed life. She began “speaking in tongues” several months after her initial revelation, which supports the conclusion that her source of “inspiration” was not the Spirit of God. God is not the Author of confusion, or phony “tongues” (I Cor.14:33; see my article on “The Truth about Tongues”).

For a thorough study of the origin of the pre-Tribulation rapture theory, read The Rapture Plot by Dave MacPherson (Millennium III Publishers, Simpsonville, South Carolina, 1995).

“Taken”

But what about this passage in Matthew 12:40 about two women, one being “taken” and one being “left”? What does it mean?

We read, “But AS the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and did not know till the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken [that is, killed, as the flood “took them all away,” in Noah’s day], and the other left [alive]. Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken [die] and the other left [alive]. WATCH therefore, for you do NOT KNOW what HOUR your Lord is coming” (Matt.24:37-42).

Notice that it was the “Flood” that “took them all away.” The masses died as a result of the Flood! They were not “taken” to heaven to be spared! Likewise, Yeshua is telling us, when He comes, and when the Tribulation is about to begin, one person will die in the melee, and invasion, and one will be left alive. That is the import of His statement here. Those “taken” and who die are those who have not been alert, watchful, and vigilant, observing the “signs of the times.” Those who are left alive are those who will be more heedful, watchful, and prudent (see Proverbs 14:26 again).

On the other hand, what about the passage in II Thess.2:6-7? Paul tells us, “And you know what is restraining him, so that he may be revealed when his time comes. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work but only until the one who now restrains it is removed.” What is restraining the arising of this key end-time figure? In the ultimate sense, of course, it is God Himself and His Spirit, His influence on the earth. God is holding it back until His time comes for the final revelation He is holding it back, I suggest, to give His people time to prepare themselves, to grow spiritually strong, to overcome and get ready.

The one “taken out of the way” to prepare for the rising up of the Antichrist is not specifically identified in II Thessalonians 2:7. However, it would appear that this could also refer to a person or nation which stands in the way of the arrival of this supreme Dictator – one who must depart the political scene before the “Beast” can take his place in full power. This restraining power could well be the United States and President George Bush! When the power of the United States is diminished due to onerous debt and over-extending its reach, the resultant world configuration will be free to elect a man over the United Nations – the end-time “Beast” – who will fulfill the prophecies of the Antichrist!

In other words, the passage Matthew 24:40 does not mention a “rapture” at all. The ones who are “taken” are going to be KILLED – their lives “taken,” as occurred in the Flood. The ones who are “left” are left ALIVE – as survivors – during the coming Great Tribulation and Holocaust that are fast approaching.

Are You Prepared?

Yeshua warned: “But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Beware, keep alert; for you do not know when the time will come. It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his slaves in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. Therefore, keep awake – for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or at dawn, or else me may find you asleep when he comes suddenly. And what I say to you I say to all: Keep awake” (Mark 13:32-37).

What about you? Are you watching and keeping alert? Are you preparing for the Wedding Feast of the Lamb? Are you praying day and night for God’s mercy and protection and deliverance from the frightful days to come, and to stand worthy before the Son of Man?

By William F. Dankenbring

Love, Walter and Debbie

The simple truths of the bible (though complex, and rather confusing to the uninitiated) are not a herd mentality proposition.
In other words the above post would not be able to be digested by the simple unsophisticated bible believing child of God. (Especially with it's many secular historical quotes that has no place in the word of God.)

Well, God ways are past finding out and you too have your part to play in God's final will for the world of today (the last days).

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 16, 2023

Re: @presidente 's Post #356, which I am re-reading... I'm wondering whether I perhaps misunderstood pres when he said [re: the order laid out in Rev] "the Rider on the white horse passage" ... which I ASSUMED (perhaps incorrectly) that he was addressing the question I was asking JPT *ABOUT* the man of sin and WHEN he is "REVEALED"... thus I assumed (since pres was quoting my post) that his Post #356 was specifically addressing "the man of sin" (the rider on the white horse WITH A BOW in Rev6 / the FIRST SEAL... AS BEING "the man of sin BE REVEALED"... which I agree with, and have explained why, biblically, in many past posts):

presidente's Post #356 - https://christianchat.com/threads/c...pseudo-rapture-doctrine-4.208914/post-4998899

TheDivineWatermark said:

Maybe pres WASN'T speaking to that point (re: my specific Q to JPT) in what he'd said about "the Rider on the white horse" (IF he was referring to the Rev19 passage instead [i.e. CHANGING Subjects], rather than referring to "the man of sin BE REVEALED" passage and my specific question as to whether JPT sees 2Th2:8a occurs at the same time that v.8b occurs, or doesn't see it that way)...???

MessengerofTruth · Jan 16, 2023

Pilgrimshope said:

You are right on. Do not give heed to fables.

presidente · Jan 16, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

I mean Revelation 19, not one of the 'four horsemen of the apocalypse' from earlier in the book.

Revelation 19
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
(NKJV)

Jesus will be there. Christ returns with the angels also. Angels not being mentioned in that particular verse doesn't mean they won't be present because they were mentioned in the previous chapter.

Yes he does in II Thessalonians 2:1 (inflected for grammar of course). Look it up in the Greek.

[qoute] and the location is "TO the meeting OF THE LORD *IN THE AIR*"... whereas, the "gather" [ONE-BY-ONE] that happens in Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:12-13,9 ["GREAT" trumpet] involves them being gathered into one place UPON THE EARTH[/quote]

It makes sense to interpret Matthew 24 as being related with other passage about the coming of the Lord Jesus rather than Isaiah 27. It is reasonable to assume that the gathering of elect at the comign of the Son of man after the tribulation described in Matthew 24 will take place in the air since I Thessalonians 4 tells us that the saints will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, and Paul writes about the coming of the Lord and our gathering unto him.

You don't have any scripture to back up a pre-trib rapture. There is no reason to invent 'problems' or differences between these passages that don't exist between this chapter so that youc an solve them with a pretrib rapture.

You can't show any scripture that says that the rapture happens before the tribulation, or that Christ returns twice.

[at which "HE SHALL SEND HIS ANGELS" to gather them], "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"--ALL references to Jesus speaking of His return or coming [spoken of PRIOR TO and INCLUDING His Olivet-Discourse-response Matt24-25] SPEAKS OF THIS... See also Isa24:23)[/QUOTE]

This doesn' prove your point

Isaiah 24:23
Then the moon will be disgraced
And the sun ashamed;
For the Lord of hosts will reign
On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
And before His elders, gloriously.
(NKJV)

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 17, 2023

presidente said:

I believe you've misunderstood me, here.

What I am pointing out is the difference between 2:1's wording to that of 2:8b's wording:

--in v.1 he uses the Greek word "parousia [G3952]" (presence / coming);

--however, in v.8b he uses the phrase "the MANIFESTATION OF His parousia [G3952-presence / coming]... where the word "MANIFESTATION" is translated in the kjv as "brightness" [G2015--See HERE: https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-8.htm ]... I'm making the point that G2015 Greek word is NOT USED in v.1... but IS USED in v.8b.

If you are saying (as your post intimates in the quote above) that you believe otherwise, please present that information so I / we can see the evidence that the "G2015-MANIFESTATION" word IS in v.1 as you say (unless you really did just miss the actual point I was making--It happens!)

Re: G2015 -

--[where is it??] - Verse 1 - https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-1.htm

--[it IS here] - Verse 8b - https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-8.htm

Prove otherwise (as you've said is the case, in quote above)

____________________

presidente said:

BTW, please stop saying that I've made that point anywhere. I've NOT.

I've repeatedly shown the scriptures using the word "RETURN" (re: Jesus) that speak (NOT OF "OUR RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]" but rather) of His Second Coming to the earth, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" (etc etc). That ONLY takes place ONCE! as I've repeatedly pointed out to you, yet obviously you've not read from my posts.

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 17, 2023

@presidente ,

I would like to see your answers to the following questions I've posed (but I think I keep saying the wrong Post #s when I refer back to them)... so here's one more attempt:

1) Post #269 (pg 14), I asked:

"Let me ask you this... if you agree with us that 2Th2:1 refers to "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" as what occurs at the time of our "rapture," do you see any words / phrases in the verses following verse 1 that also speak specifically OF IT?? Can you point to another word or phrase FOLLOWING v.1 that speaks to this / this item, specifically? (meaning, our "rapture"... even using a different term or phrase... ?)"

2) Post #281 (pg 15), I asked:

For those following along with this thread... a question:

Besides being "shaken [G4531] in mind"...

--"to move or agitate the mind, to disturb one:τινα ἀπό τοῦ νως, so as to throw him out of his sober and natural mental state (Buttmann, 322 (277)), 2 Thessalonians 2:2"

...and "troubled [G2360]"...

--"throéō (from throos, "clamor, tumult") – properly, unsettled (thrown into confusion, WS, 953); (figuratively) troubled (disturbed), wanting to "cry aloud, to scream (passive) because terrified" (WP, 1, 189); thrown into an "emotional uproar," i.e. very upset (alarmed, startled)."

... what kind of picture would be brought to your mind (as to, what has taken place) if someone were to say [/ purport] (even perhaps by a letter, say, lost records as being from Paul): "that THE DAY OF THE LORD is present [perfect indicative; 'perfect' tense, meaning, 'Action completed at a specific point of time IN PAST, with results CONTINUING into the PRESENT']"

... IOW, what would you think has taken place (according to said "claim" 2:2 [false claim Paul is referencing and addressing])?

3) Post #348 (pg 18), I asked:

--WHEN do you believe "the man of sin / lawless one will be REVEALED" (v.8a) in relation, time-wise, to the point-in-ime that he will be "DESTROYED" (v.8b) by "the MANIFESTATION of the presence/parousia" of Jesus?

Do you believe those two things (v.8a and v.8b) occur AT THE SAME time-slot, or are they separated by some spans of time? and if so, "how much time" separates, or comes between, these two occurrences, as you see it? and what scripture informs you of such?

Do you have any thoughts on those particular items, v.8a and v.8b, and whether any kind of "TIME-amount" separates the two?

Thanks.

[end of quoting past posts]

____________

I still am unclear on how @presidente would answer the questions I posed in the above-quoted-posts I made in this thread.

If you have any answers to these questions, I would be interested in hearing them.

Thank you. = )

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 17, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:
About the "HARVEST" (at "the end [singular] of the age [singular]") issue.

As I've said in past posts, there is MORE THAN ONE "harvest" in Scripture (and in nature); and there is MORE THAN ONE "firstfruit" in Scripture (and in nature).

Just because Jesus was covering the Subject of the "WHEAT" harvest, in Matthew 13 (and notice the Subject is, in v.24, "the kingdom OF THE heavenS"<--which is earthly-located), doesn't mean that there is only ONE "harvest";

Again, in Lev23 there are TWO distinct mentions of "firstfruit"... and the SECOND mention is in v.17, where it is speaking of the "WHEAT" harvest and says of it, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (<--those are not references to/descriptions of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / US, the "ONE BODY"); Lev23:17 corresponds with the wording in Rev14:4 (re: "the 144,000" as "firstfruit" of THAT one), but the EARLIER mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23 is DISTINCT from the one in v.17...
The "WHEAT" harvest (v.17 of Lev23) is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (a harvesting implement); the EARLIER harvest is harvested by means of "TOSSING UP INTO THE AIR" and "BLOWING away the chaff"

[end quoting my recent post that you quoted]

presidente said:

What I'm pointing out, is that Paul thoroughly knew the OT Scriptures.

There are MANY such "connections," not just the ones I've pointed out in that post.

And there's this to consider: "For whatever [G3745- https://biblehub.com/greek/3745.htm ] was written in the past was all written for our instruction, so that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope."

Why would I want to be?! That's a terribly inaccurate viewpoint, butchering SO MANY "timing" and "SEQUENCE issues" (etc) that it's sad.

What Paul says in 2Th2 (about the SEQUENCE ISSUES) *is* straightforward, but many misconstrue the actual point he is conveying in that passage, which (in my recent posts) I am endeavoring to draw out for the sake of those who care to answer the several questions I've posed in Post #269, Post #281, and Post #348 (and which I collected together into one Post on this Page... Post #388).

Any takers??

justpassinthrough · Jan 17, 2023

presidente said:

That is the only defense a person has, saying there is more than one ”coming”.

It is then they expose themselves as false teachers.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Coming - parousia - G3952

presence
the coming, arrival, advent
1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

JPT

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 17, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

I say that ^ BECAUSE of what Paul says of "the Church which is His body" (us) in his epistles.

Things that are DIFFERENT cannot be the SAME.

The problem arises when people tend to either disregard Paul (as though he wasn't given to write WHAT HE WROTE by mean of the Holy Spirit), or think he was simply the garbage man (cleaning up the messes and so forth); or worse, consider him a HERETIC (coz of the "contradictions" they PERCEIVE him to be presenting, but without "understanding" that this also from God--what he was tasked with writing). Now, I don't think anyone in this thread believes Paul was a heretic (or the "antichrist" as some wackos suggest). But some ppl do tend to gloss over things without giving it much thought... it puzzles me, actually.

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 17, 2023

justpassinthrough said:

The text in Heb9:28 says, "a second time apart from sin shall appear [passive; G3708]."

The TEN VERSES having the word "appear [passive; G3708]" regarding Jesus (out of 684x that "G3708" word is used) are ALL speaking of what took place FOLLOWING His Resurrection.

(NONE refer to His earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross and His Resurrection. NONE!)...

IOW, the FIRST time "apart from sin" He appeared [G3708, passive, like in Heb9:28] was AFTER His Resurrection.

And of those TEN MENTIONS (of this same word Heb9:28 uses "G3708-passive"), FIVE of them refer to instances of when He was UP IN HEAVEN / FROM HIS POSITION IN HEAVEN (after His ASCENSION told of in Acts 1--meaning, AFTER THAT).

So, no... you'd have to come up with a more convincing argument or passage, as Heb9:28 (as I see it) isn't saying what many people SUGGEST it is conveying.

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/9-28.htm

1537 [e]
ek
ἐκ
for
Prep

1208 [e]
deuterou
δευτέρου ,
a second time
Adj-GMS

5565 [e]
chōris
χωρὶς
apart from
Prep

266 [e]
hamartias
ἁμαρτίας ,
sin
N-GFS

3708 [e]
ophthēsetai
ὀφθήσεται
will appear
V-FIP-3S

-- Hebrews 9:28 Interlinear: so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time apart from a sin-offering shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation! (biblehub.com)

justpassinthrough · Jan 17, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

The short answer, approximately 3 1/2 years;

1260 Days
A time, times, and a half of time

Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
Daniel 7:25

But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. Revelation 12:14

And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17

More specifically 1290 days

“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Daniel 12:11

However, we also must consider --

Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. Daniel 12:12

Which is why I say “approximately“ 3 1/2 years, 1260 days…

The coming of the Lord, which is also called the day of the Lord in which He gathers His people at the resurrection and rapture occurs on the last day.

The way the antichrist is revealed, is going to the temple of God and proclaiming himself as God.

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

This event of revealing the antichrist occurs in the “middle” of Daniel’s 70th week; the final 7 years whereby God deals with Israel again as He did in the Old Testament.

A thorough understanding of Daniel 9:24-27 is crucial.

“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy. V. 24

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times. V.25

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. V. 26

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” V.27

JPT

cv5 · Jan 17, 2023

justpassinthrough said:

That is the only defense a person has, saying there is more than one ”coming”.

It is then they expose themselves as false teachers.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

Coming - parousia - G3952

presence
the coming, arrival, advent
1. the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God

JPT

Pay strict attention to what TDW has to say bro. Time to up your game a little......

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 17, 2023

justpassinthrough said:

[I added an underlining]

I'm delighted to see that you've underlined the word "SO THAT"... which I see (instead) as connecting back to the specific words saying "who [identifying] OPPOSES AND EXALTS HIMSELF above all that is called God or that is worshipped"... which points us back to the "king" who "shall do according to his [own] will" in Dan11:36 [many scholars see the break between v.35 and this v.36], which section (11:36-end) would be describing things IN THE FIRST HALF, occurring BEFORE the Dan12:1 MID-POINT (starting the SECOND / LATTER HALF of the 7 yrs, and lasts 3.5 yrs [the 1260 days... or 1290 days, whichever one you want to think connects]).

Here's what the word for "SO THAT" shows (per BibleHub):

HELPS Word-studies
5620 hṓste (a conjunction, derived from 5613 /hōs, "as" and 5037 /té, "both-and") – wherefore (with the result that both . . . ), connecting cause to necessary effect which emphasizes the result (the combined, end-accomplishment). The result involved then is the combination of both elements in the correlation, underscoring the inevitable effect of the paired elements.

[This common point ("fulcrum") of the correlation is the key link for yielding the result of the cause-and-effect relationship.]

[end quoting from BibleHub]

As I see it, it connects what he does in 2:4b ("SITTETH" and "SHEWING HIMSELF") back to the point of his "OPPOSING" and "EXALTING HIMSELF"... (which, as I see it... besides the connection with Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE" (a certain one, bringing deception)... also connects with the rider on the white horse WITH A BOW [often meaning "DECEPTION"--see 2Th2:9-10a], when it says "went forth CONQUERING and TO CONQUER" which is at the START of the "7 yrs" as is Dan9:27 first line [v.27a].)

I realize this is a common understanding... I just disagree, for reasons I stated above.

Also, as I've mentioned in past posts, I see parallel language between the wording in 2Th2:7b-8a to that of Lam2:3-4 ("He hath DRAWN BACK His right hand FROM BEFORE the enemy," iow lifting His restraint [allowing the enemy to have at it!]... and [besides the "wrath" words and "flaming fire" wording] also says, "He STOOD with His right hand as an enemy...")

Agreed.

But I'm not sure why anyone would highlight the second line, skipping over the first line entirely (which is also what he will do--which I believe corresponds with the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" of the man of sin which 2Th2:9a speaks to specifically, at the START of the "7 yrs"... aka SEAL #1 at the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period, per Paul's words in 1Th5:3 reflective of Jesus' words in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 the FIRST of MANY "birth PANGS").

Anyway, THANKS for your response! Much appreciated!

TheDivineWatermark · Jan 17, 2023

TheDivineWatermark said:

Sry, I had meant to ALSO INCLUDE 11:37 (in addition to v.36) in my quoting:

Verse 36 -
Berean Standard Bible
Then the king will do as he pleases and will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and he will speak monstrous things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the time of wrath is completed, for what has been decreed must be accomplished.

King James Bible
And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

Verse 37 -
Berean Standard Bible
He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers, nor for the one desired by women, nor for any other god, because he will magnify himself above them all.

King James Bible
Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

[11:36-end of chpt 11 = FIRST HALF of the "7 yrs"; 12:1 speaks of MID-TRIB... Toward end of chpt is END OF TRIB... "at the END of the DAYS"--the "days" being referred to in that chpt]

cv5 · Jan 17, 2023

justpassinthrough said:

Disagree. He is revealed on the world stage (being unmistakably and positively identified) when he ratifies/enforces/confirms "the covenant". Which initiates at the beginning of the 70th week. This is made very clear in the sequence.

This of course matches the opening of the first seal of Rev 6. Which matches all relevant statements made by Jesus on the matter. It all lines up perfectly.

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Cameron143 · Jan 17, 2023

cv5 said:

Disagree. He is revealed on the world stage (being unmistakably and positively identified) when he ratifies/enforces/confirms "the covenant". Which initiates at the beginning of the 70th week. This is made very clear in the sequence.

This of course matches the opening of the first seal of Rev 6. Which matches all relevant statements made by Jesus on the matter. It all lines up perfectly.

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So you see the fulfillment of Daniel 9:27 as first century?

cv5 · Jan 17, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Absolutely not. It is relatively near future. Like less than a generation IMO.

How did you ever come to that conclusion? Never in my life have I believed in any preterist theory. Fortunately.

Cameron143 · Jan 17, 2023

cv5 said:

Because that's when sacrifice ceased.

Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

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