Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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Johann

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something to ponder about-

Translating pistis christou as “faithfulness of Christ” is theologically attractive.

The theme of “union with Christ” is a powerful one in Pauline theology, and it makes good sense of a number of passages. For example, the KJV translates Galatians 2:20 with the subjective genitive: “The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.”

When incorporated into Reformation categories of theology, “faithfulness of Christ” bolsters support for the doctrine of imputation. “We are justified by the faithfulness of Christ (his perfect obedience to the Father’s will, his faithfulness unto death on behalf of his covenant people).”

Philippians 3:9 seems to put more emphasis on Christ’s faithfulness, rather than our faith, as the means of supplying our needed righteousness. “Not having a righteousness of my own from the law, but one that is through the faithfulness of Christ – the righteousness from God based on faith.” Anything that appears to give more glory to Christ is attractive to me.

3. The juxtaposition of Israel’s unfaithfulness (works of the law) and Christ’s faithfulness (through his death) provides a compelling interpretation of the key passages in Galatians.

Ardel Caneday writes: “In Galatians, Paul’s argument features Christ Jesus over against Torah, with Torah in a servant role to Christ, as preparatory for Christ who has now come. Paul’s antithetical placement of pistis christou with “works of the law” / “law” placards the faithfulness of Christ Jesus who accomplishes what the Law could not.”

For a while, I leaned toward the “faithfulness of Christ” view, primarily because the reasons listed above. Still, despite the attraction of that translation, I have recently shifted in the other direction. Today, I am convinced that the New Testament authors intended pistis christou to refer to “faith in Christ” rather than the faithfulness of Christ. Here are the reasons that swayed me the other way:

1. None of the early church fathers or early Greek readers give a subjective genitive reading of pistis christou. In fact, the discussion doesn’t even come up.

This reason is the most compelling to me. As a fluent Romanian speaker, I’ve observed quirky grammatical constructions that could possibly mean two or more things within the flow of the language.

If Romanians, however, hear those grammatical constructions in only one way, then I know that I’m correct in translating the ambiguous phrase according to its unambiguous meaning in its original language and the receptor language. The same principle applies to native Greek speakers.

Barry Matlock writes: “It is not that the subjective genitive reading is explicitly rejected among early Greek readers… but rather that no awareness is shown of this option nor indeed of any problem, and so the objective is read without polemic or apology. Silence can be very eloquent, and here it fairly sings.”
2. The “repetition” problem isn’t as big a problem as it first appears.

In Rom. 3:21-22, Paul probably intends to place the emphasis on the “all”: -that is, God’s righteousness through trust in Jesus Christ, to all who trust.

It is also likely that Paul uses repetition intentionally. In an oral culture, this is a common technique at getting across one’s point.
3. Grammatically, there are other places where the genitive refers to Christ as the object.

In Philippians 3:8, Jesus Christ is described as the object of knowledge. In 1 Thessalonians, he is described as the object of hope. In both these cases, it is clear from the context that Paul is not talking about Christ’s knowledge or Christ’s hope. There is no grammatical reason why the same can’t be true of pistis christou.

4. We should not do exegesis with a bias toward “what is theologically attractive.”

Though I love the emphasis the “faithfulness of Christ” view places on Christ’s obedience, I can’t let my exegesis be driven by what appears to support my theological position. The key issue is “what did the author intend to communicate?”, not “how does this boost what I already believe?”

Regarding my thoughts above on Christ’s faithfulness to the covenant, I should reiterate that Paul’s emphasis on “faith in Christ” does not undermine the truth that God is the One doing the saving.

Michael Bird writes: “Faith in Christ means entrusting ourselves to the event of the gospel, which includes the theocentric act of deliverance wrought by God in Jesus which includes his coming, faithfulness, death, and resurrection. Thus, I would say that Jesus’ faithfulness is implied not in the noun pistis but in christos.”

The more I study, the more I am convinced that pistis christou should be translated “faith in Christ.” What about you? Have you considered this debate? Which way do you lean?

(For more information on this debate, I recommend reading The Faith of Jesus Christ: Exegetical, Biblical, and Theological Studies. Also of interest, a post from Collin Hansen that summarizes the views of several New Testament scholars.)

Thanks brother-
J.
I live by the faith of the Son of God; meaning, not that faith which Christ, as man, had, but that of which he is the author and object, by which the just man lives; not upon it, for the believer does not live upon any of his graces, no, not upon faith, but by faith on Christ, the object; looking to him for pardon, righteousness, peace, joy, comfort, every supply of grace, and eternal salvation: which object is described as "the Son of God"; who is truly God, equal with his Father; so that he did not live upon a creature, or forsake the fountain of living waters, but upon the only begotten Son of God, who is full of grace and truth:
 

ThereRoseaLamb

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[Eph 1:1, 3-5, 7 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ...
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Not for salvation!!! NO! God did not choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. Stop twisting the verses. God knowing is NOT God choosing!! That is not God, He said He wishes that none will perish you are making God a liar and a monster. No different than the Nazi's, you go in this line, you go in that line. Why, because I don't like the look of your face today. NO, NO,NO!! That is not God !! God loves the sinner and is married to the backslider, you do not know the truth, and it's right in front of your face!!!
 

rogerg

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No, it's not whatever. It's what the Word says and you are twisting it beyond all means to make it say what you want it to. I've never heard of a doctrine as twisted as you have made it. You are not elite, you are not special or above anyone else. You're a sinner saved by grace. And if we have faith and trust in Him we will go to meet Him. That is what the Word says.
I agree with your fourth, fifth and sixth sentences. However, as it is solely by grace, then faith and trust must be given too.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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Not for salvation!!! NO! God did not choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. Stop twisting the verses. God knowing is NOT God choosing!! That is not God, He said He wishes that none will perish you are making God a liar and a monster. No different than the Nazi's, you go in this line, you go in that line. Why, because I don't like the look of your face today. NO, NO,NO!! That is not God !! God loves the sinner and is married to the backslider, you do not know the truth, and it's right in front of your face!!!
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
 

notmyown

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John 3: 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


1 John 2: 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You tell me.. What did Jesus mean. In jesus own words
with respect, brother, as i know you get quite passionate about these things... :)

you can't legitimately use Jn 3:16 to make your point. it's telling you in what manner God loved the world, and since you included v. 17, you have to see that "that the world through Him might be saved", well, obviously everyone in human history isn't saved.

1 Jn 2:2 says what it says, so there's a point in your favor, lol.

but there are other verses, like

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (Heb 9:28)

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. (Jn 10:11)

just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. (Jn 15:10)

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (Eph 5:25)

even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. (Mt 20:28)

there are other passages that support this notion, but you get the idea. now we begin to see why this argument has gone on so long. :sneaky:
 

TheDivineWatermark

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and since you included v. 17, you have to see that "that the world through Him might [subjunctive] be saved", well, obviously everyone in human history isn't saved.
This isn't saying 100% of the people in the world WILL BE saved.

The following verse (v.18) tell just who it will be applied to (not 100% of the people in the world will "believe").







"that the world THROUGH [/BY MEANS OF] HIM" (THE ONLY WAY) *might be saved [subjunctive]*

(it requires believing in/on Him, though)



verse 18 - "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
 

Johann

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[Eph 1:1, 3-5, 7 KJV]
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ...
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, ...
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
But what is the faith on which the Scriptures so much insist? This is a matter of chief importance. An error here will affect our whole religious life. Faith is either human or divine. In human faith we rely upon what men say. This we do by the constitution of our minds. Thus, children rest upon what their parents tell them. Human faith is properly confined to things on which God has not spoken. Its basis is human testimony. Divine faith rests on the testimony of God. It concerns things which are revealed from heaven…

The faith of God’s people relates to things past, present, and to come. It believes that God made the world. There is the past. It believes that God is. There is the present. It believes that there will be a Day of Judgment. There is the future. Nor are these and other revealed truths believed by different kinds of faith, but all by one and the same faith. As with the same visual organ we look to the east, to the west, to the north, and to the south, at objects far from us or near to us, so with the same eye of faith we look at things thousands of years past, or thousands of years to come, or things now existing in the unseen world. Of old for thousands of years, the pious believed in a Savior to come. In the days of His flesh, His disciples believed in a Savior then come. For nearly two thousand years, God’s people have believed in a Savior that has come. In all these cases the faith was the same in principle and in its effects also.



The first thing asserted is that saving faith is not of earthly, but of heavenly origin; that it is not of man, but of God. Faith is the gift of God: “For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him” (Philippians 1:29);

“God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith” (Romans 12:3).

When “Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 16:16, 17).

This faith is particularly ascribed to the Holy Ghost as its Author. He produces it in the heart. So say the Scriptures: “The fruit of the Spirit is faith” (Galatians 5:22); “To another is given faith by the same Spirit” (1 Corinthians 12:9); “We having the same Spirit of faith…also believe” (2 Corinthians 4:13).

The reason why saving faith endures is because it is the incorruptible seed of God.

It is next said that in working this faith in us, God puts honor upon His Word as the ordinary instrument. With this also the Scriptures well agree: “How shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?…So then, faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God” (Romans 10:14, 17);

“It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe” (1 Corinthians 1:21).

This is the foundation of all our encouragement in proclaiming the Gospel. That which is sown in the weakness of man is raised in the mighty energy of the Holy Ghost. No wonder that such happy results flow from proclaiming the Gospel whenever God’s Spirit attends it. It is thus the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth. “God’s gracious biddings are effectual enablings.”

In like manner this faith is chiefly nourished by the ministry of the Word and other ordinances, and by prayer. “Lord, increase our faith” (Luke 17:5).

The baptism of water is effectual when accompanied by the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

The breaking of bread and drinking of wine are means of nourishment to all those who drink spiritually of the Rock which follows them, even Christ, and who by faith eat the true bread which cometh down from heaven, even the Son of God. All the saints desire the sincere milk of the Word that they may grow thereby.

True faith respects all God’s Word. It receives narratives, promises, threatenings, doctrines, precepts, warnings, encouragements, all as they were designed for its use. It obeys God’s commands.

They were given for that purpose. It is afraid of His threatenings. It trembles at His Word. It relies upon the promises, both as they respect this life and the next. It takes warning from many parts of Scripture. It rejoices in solid Scriptural encouragement. It relies upon God’s Word as testimony that is infallible. Whatever God speaks, faith believes. It receives all He has said. The Word of God liveth and abideth for ever. So faith receives it as His Word and not as the word of man. His authority is perfect.

But saving faith has special reference to Christ. So the Scriptures often teach: “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” (1 John 5:5);

“If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son” (1 John 5:9-11);

“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” (Acts 16:31);

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” (John 3:36);

“He that believeth on him is not condemned” (John 3:18).

In God’s Word, the great theme is Christ Jesus: “To him give all the prophets witness” (Acts 10:43); “The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy” (Revelation 19:10).

If to deny the Father is fatal, so is it also to deny the Son. If to do despite to the Spirit of grace involves the loss of the soul, to reject Christ as the Savior makes destruction inevitable. But to receive Christ, to rest upon Him, to look to Him, to come to Him, to flee to Him for refuge, to take Him as our Sacrifice, as our Prophet, Priest, and King, and to do this heartily is the great office of saving faith.

Shalom
J.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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[to go with my previous post ^ ]

1 John 5 -

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
 

Johann

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Faith is not our savior.

It was not faith that was born at Bethlehem and died on Golgotha for us. It was not faith that loved us and gave itself for us; that bore our sins in its own body on the tree; that died and rose again for our sins. Faith is one thing, the Savior is another.

Faith is one thing, and the cross is another.

Let us not confound them, nor ascribe to a poor, imperfect act of man, that which belongs exclusively to the Son of the Living God.

Faith is not perfection. Yet only by perfection can we be saved, either our own or another’s. That which is imperfect cannot justify, and an imperfect faith could not in any sense be a righteousness. If it is to justify, it must be perfect.

It must be like “the Lamb without blemish and without spot.” An imperfect faith may connect us with the perfection of another; but it cannot of itself do aught[2] for us, either in protecting us from wrath or securing the divine acquittal. All faith here is imperfect; and our security is this, that it matters not how poor or weak our faith may be: if it touches the perfect One, all is well.

The touch draws out the virtue that is in Him, and we are saved. The slightest imperfection in our faith, if faith were our righteousness, would be fatal to every hope. But the imperfection of our faith, however great, if faith be but the approximation or contact between us and the fullness of the Substitute, is no hindrance to our participation of His righteousness. God has asked and provided a perfect righteousness: He nowhere asks nor expects a perfect faith. An earthenware pitcher can convey water to a traveler’s thirsty lips as well as one of gold; nay, a broken vessel, even if there be but “a sherd[3] to take water from the pit” (Isa 30:14), will suffice. So a feeble, very feeble faith, will connect us with the righteousness of the Son of God; the faith, perhaps, that can only cry, “Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief” (Mar 9:24).

Faith is not satisfaction to God. In no sense and in no aspect can faith be said to satisfy God or to satisfy the law. Yet if it is to be our righteousness, it must satisfy.

Being imperfect, it cannot satisfy; being human, it cannot satisfy, even though it were perfect. That which satisfies must be capable of bearing our guilt; and that which bears our guilt must be not only perfect, but divine. It is a sin-bearer that we need, and our faith cannot be a sin-bearer. Faith can expiate no guilt, can accomplish no propitiation, can pay no penalty, can wash away no stain, can provide no righteousness. It brings us to the cross, where there is expiation and propitiation and payment and cleansing and righteousness. But in itself it has no merit and no virtue.

Faith is not Christ nor the cross of Christ.

Faith is not the blood, nor the sacrifice. It is not the altar, nor the laver[4], nor the mercy-seat, nor the incense. It does not work, but accepts a work done ages ago. It does not wash, but leads us to the fountain opened for sin and uncleanness. It does not create; it merely links us to that new thing which was created when the “everlasting righteousness” was brought in (Dan 9:24).

And as faith goes on, so it continues; always the beggar’s out-stretched hand, never the rich man’s gold; always the cable, never the anchor; the knocker, not the door or the palace or the table; the handmaid, not the mistress; the lattice which lets in the light, not the sun.

Without worthiness in itself, it knits us to the infinite worthiness of Him in whom the Father delights; and so knitting us, presents us perfect in the perfection of another. Though it is not the foundation laid in Zion, it brings us to that foundation and keeps us there “grounded and settled” (Col 1:23), that we may not be moved away from the hope of the gospel. Though it is not “the gospel,” the “glad tidings,” it receives this good news as God’s eternal verities[5] and bids the soul rejoice in them. Though it is not the burnt-offering, it stands still and gazes on the ascending flame, which assures us that the wrath which should have consumed the sinner has fallen upon the Substitute.

Though faith is not “the righteousness,” it is the tie between it and us.

It realizes our present standing before God in the excellency of His own Son. And it tells us that our eternal standing in the ages to come is in the same excellency and depends on the perpetuity of that righteousness which can never change. For never shall we put off that Christ whom we put on when we believed (Rom 12:14; Gal 3:27). This divine raiment is “to everlasting.” It waxes not old, it cannot be rent, and its beauty fadeth not away.

Nor does faith lead us away from that cross to which at first it led us. Some in our day speak as if we soon got beyond the cross and might leave it behind; that the cross having done all it could do for us when first we came under its shadow, we may quit it and go forward; that to remain always at the cross is to be babes, not men.

But what is the cross? It is not the mere wooden pole or some imitation of it, such as Romanists use. These we may safely leave behind us. We need not pitch our tent upon the literal Golgotha or in Joseph’s garden. But the great truth which the cross embodies we can no more part with than we can part with life eternal. In this sense, to turn our back upon the cross is to turn our back upon Christ crucified—to give up our connection with the Lamb that was slain.

The truth is, that all that Christ did and suffered, from the manger to the tomb, forms one glorious whole, no part of which shall ever become needless or obsolete; no part of which can ever leave without forsaking the whole. I am always at the manger, and yet I know that mere incarnation cannot save; always at Gethsemane, and yet I believe that its agony was not the finished work; always at the cross, with my face toward it and my eye on the crucified One, and yet I am persuaded that the sacrifice there was completed once for all; always looking into the grave, though I rejoice that it is empty and that “He is not here, but is risen”; always resting (with the angel) on the stone that was rolled away, and handling the grave-clothes, and realizing a risen Christ, nay, an ascended and interceding Lord; yet on no pretext whatever leaving any part of my Lord’s life or death behind me, but unceasingly keeping up my connection with Him, as born, living, dying, buried, and rising again, and drawing out from each part some new blessing every day and hour.

Man, in his natural spirit of self-justifying legalism, has tried to get away from the cross of Christ and its perfection, or to erect another cross instead, or to set up a screen of ornaments between himself and it, or to alter its true meaning into something more congenial6 to his tastes, or to transfer the virtue of it to some act or performance or feeling of its own.

Thus the simplicity of the cross is nullified,[7] and its saving power is denied. For the cross saves completely or not at all. Our faith does not divide the work of salvation between itself and the cross. It is the acknowledgment that the cross alone saves, and that it saves alone. Faith adds nothing to the cross or to its healing virtue. It owns the fullness and sufficiency and suitableness of the work done there and bids the toiling spirit cease from its labors and enter into rest. Faith does not come to Calvary to do anything. It comes to see the glorious spectacle of all things done and to accept this completion without a misgiving as to its efficacy. It listens to the “It is finished!” of the Sin-bearer and says, “Amen.” Where faith begins, there labor ends—labor, I mean, “for” life and pardon.

Amen
J.
 
Feb 10, 2024
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God gave Paul a proper understanding of the OT Prophets and greek and hebrew. He is a reliable source
i think most believers don’t realize that paul was conscripted with the task of bringing the gospel to the “lost sheep of israel” of which were the scattered tribes from the assyrian as well as babylonian deportations. the gospel message only went to the nations where the scattered israelites were located. josephus is quoted on the location of those tribes that were scattered and it was common knowledge to those in judea. i grew up in the church and this was never mentioned and now as an adult i am just now reading the scripture in full context and searching out the history of the peoples of the scripture. i came to this forum because i hope to find other believers who are willing to study the s scripture intensively and let it stand on its own.
 

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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i think most believers don’t realize that paul was conscripted with the task of bringing the gospel to the “lost sheep of israel” of which were the scattered tribes from the assyrian as well as babylonian deportations. the gospel message only went to the nations where the scattered israelites were located. josephus is quoted on the location of those tribes that were scattered and it was common knowledge to those in judea. i grew up in the church and this was never mentioned and now as an adult i am just now reading the scripture in full context and searching out the history of the peoples of the scripture. i came to this forum because i hope to find other believers who are willing to study the s scripture intensively and let it stand on its own.
False Paul was sent specifically to the gentiles for God call out His Elect from among them, which are the lost sheep of Israel, Abrahams Spiritual Seed, once God completes the calling in of all them, All Israel shall be saved as Promised Isa 45:17

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
 

MerSee

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The subject still stands

He did not die for just the elect. he died for the world. So whoever believes will not perish..

That subject sadly will never be solved until Christ returns..
And when all the nonelect throughout all human history end up in hell.
 

MerSee

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Not for salvation!!! NO! God did not choose who will go to heaven and who will go to hell. Stop twisting the verses. God knowing is NOT God choosing!! That is not God, He said He wishes that none will perish you are making God a liar and a monster. No different than the Nazi's, you go in this line, you go in that line. Why, because I don't like the look of your face today. NO, NO,NO!! That is not God !! God loves the sinner and is married to the backslider, you do not know the truth, and it's right in front of your face!!!
Do you believe God loves the unrepentant sinners who are in hell?
 
Feb 10, 2024
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The verse you provided, "Saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness" (Malachi 1:2-3), is a complex and controversial passage that has been the subject of various interpretations and theological discussions. The phrase "I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau" has been understood in different ways, and its meaning is not straightforward.

The search results provided include various commentaries and reflections on related passages, such as Lamentations 2 and Malachi 1. These resources offer insights into the historical, cultural, and literary context of the verses, as well as different exegetical perspectives.

The verse from Malachi is often interpreted in the context of God's sovereign choice and His dealings with nations rather than individuals. It is important to consider the broader biblical narrative and the principles of God's justice, mercy, and love when interpreting such passages.

Given the complexity of the topic and the diverse range of interpretations, it is advisable to consult a variety of reputable commentaries, theological resources, and scholarly works to gain a comprehensive understanding of the passage. Additionally, engaging in discussions with knowledgeable individuals or scholars within a faith community can provide valuable insights into the interpretation of this verse.

But most don't want to search reputable commentaries-theological sources and scholarly works-what a shame.
J.
the “jacob - esau” narrative is still relevant and is prophesied until the end of the age when the King comes back. i think the reason many believers are oblivious to this concept is because they have not been instructed to read the scripture in its entirety rather than a few verses every sunday from the pulpit. i wasted many years clinging to new testament doctrines while the world around me was manifesting the war that the scripture details in stunning detail for us. in the last few years time and time again i am blown away by the truths tucked away in the scriptures and they have been there for generations and generations just waiting for the faithful to dedicate themselves to searching it out from cover to cover. my prayer for my brethren is that they would take hold of all the tools and the knowledge of the ages that they have in the palm of their hands (smartphones) to search out the scripture in ways that the previous generations would kill for but sadly i think social media and pornography have clouded the minds of my brethren
 

Johann

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the “jacob - esau” narrative is still relevant and is prophesied until the end of the age when the King comes back. i think the reason many believers are oblivious to this concept is because they have not been instructed to read the scripture in its entirety rather than a few verses every sunday from the pulpit. i wasted many years clinging to new testament doctrines while the world around me was manifesting the war that the scripture details in stunning detail for us. in the last few years time and time again i am blown away by the truths tucked away in the scriptures and they have been there for generations and generations just waiting for the faithful to dedicate themselves to searching it out from cover to cover. my prayer for my brethren is that they would take hold of all the tools and the knowledge of the ages that they have in the palm of their hands (smartphones) to search out the scripture in ways that the previous generations would kill for but sadly i think social media and pornography have clouded the minds of my brethren
Unfortunately we have very "close-minded" members-some, nor all who claim the read the Bible only-and nothing else-I have almost all ancient rabbinical writings and not afraid to read the customs, cultures and folklore from these Sages.
Shalom Achi.
J.
 

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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There is nothing in scripture that agrees with this statement.
[1Co 1:30 KJV]
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 

Johann

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Apr 12, 2022
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[1Co 1:30 KJV]
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Through the faith of Christ (διὰ πίστεως Χριστοῦ)
Rev., better, through faith in Christ. Faith as opposed to the law. The change of prepositions, through (διὰ) faith, and of (ἐκ) the law, as turning on the distinction between faith represented as the medium, and the law as the source of justification, cannot be insisted upon as a rule, since both the prepositions are used with faith, as in Gal_2:16. Compare Rom_3:30; Rom_5:1.
MWP

Through faith in Christ (dia pisteōs Christou). The objective genitive Christou, not subjective, as in Gal_2:16, Gal_2:20; Rom_3:22. Explained further by epi tēi pistei (on the basis of faith) as in Act_3:16.
RWP

Here again, as with νόμος and δικαιοσύνη, St Paul’s writings are the best commentary; see esp. Rom_3:21-28, χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνη … δικ. δὲ Θεοῦ διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ … εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτὸν δίκαιον καὶ δικαιοῦντα τὸν ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ, κτλ. In that passage there comes out, what is only latent here, the thought that the “faith” has reference specially to Christ in His propitiation, and that the blessing which it immediately receives is the justification (acceptance) of the believer. See further Romans 4, 5, Rom_8:33-34; Gal_3:1-14; Gal_3:21-24; Eph_2:8-9. As to the πίστις itself, at least its leading idea is personal trust in a promise, or, better, in a Promiser. Setting aside Jas_2:14-26, where the argument takes up and uses an inadequate notion of πίστις, namely correct creed (see Lightfoot, Gal., detached notes following ch. iii.), the word constantly conveys in Scripture the thought of personal reliance, trustful acceptance[5]. The essence of such reliance is that it goes forth from self to God, bringing nothing that it may receive all. Thus it has a moral fitness (quite different from deservingness) to be the recipient of Divine gifts. In faith, man forgets himself, to embrace his Redeemer.
CK
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,150
437
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Through the faith of Christ (διὰ πίστεως Χριστοῦ)
Rev., better, through faith in Christ. Faith as opposed to the law. The change of prepositions, through (διὰ) faith, and of (ἐκ) the law, as turning on the distinction between faith represented as the medium, and the law as the source of justification, cannot be insisted upon as a rule, since both the prepositions are used with faith, as in Gal_2:16. Compare Rom_3:30; Rom_5:1.
MWP

Through faith in Christ (dia pisteōs Christou). The objective genitive Christou, not subjective, as in Gal_2:16, Gal_2:20; Rom_3:22. Explained further by epi tēi pistei (on the basis of faith) as in Act_3:16.
RWP

Here again, as with νόμος and δικαιοσύνη, St Paul’s writings are the best commentary; see esp. Rom_3:21-28, χωρὶς νόμου δικαιοσύνη … δικ. δὲ Θεοῦ διὰ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ … εἰς τὸ εἶναι αὐτὸν δίκαιον καὶ δικαιοῦντα τὸν ἐκ πίστεως Ἰησοῦ, κτλ. In that passage there comes out, what is only latent here, the thought that the “faith” has reference specially to Christ in His propitiation, and that the blessing which it immediately receives is the justification (acceptance) of the believer. See further Romans 4, 5, Rom_8:33-34; Gal_3:1-14; Gal_3:21-24; Eph_2:8-9. As to the πίστις itself, at least its leading idea is personal trust in a promise, or, better, in a Promiser. Setting aside Jas_2:14-26, where the argument takes up and uses an inadequate notion of πίστις, namely correct creed (see Lightfoot, Gal., detached notes following ch. iii.), the word constantly conveys in Scripture the thought of personal reliance, trustful acceptance[5]. The essence of such reliance is that it goes forth from self to God, bringing nothing that it may receive all. Thus it has a moral fitness (quite different from deservingness) to be the recipient of Divine gifts. In faith, man forgets himself, to embrace his Redeemer.
CK
Did you come up with that?
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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with respect, brother, as i know you get quite passionate about these things... :)

you can't legitimately use Jn 3:16 to make your point. it's telling you in what manner God loved the world, and since you included v. 17, you have to see that "that the world through Him might be saved", well, obviously everyone in human history isn't saved.
That is why we have the words MIGHT BE SAVED. It does not say they WILL be saved

1 Jn 2:2 says what it says, so there's a point in your favor, lol.

but there are other verses, like

so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (Heb 9:28)

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. (Jn 10:11)

just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. (Jn 15:10)

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her (Eph 5:25)

even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many. (Mt 20:28)

there are other passages that support this notion, but you get the idea. now we begin to see why this argument has gone on so long. :sneaky:
I think the argument is pretty bad. Does God Love his enemy? He told us to. and if we do not it is sin.

So if God did nto love ALL his enemy (the world) and die for them, so they could be saved. Then is not God in sin himself. especially since we does not do what he demands us to do?

All those verses you posted are correct. He did lay his life down for his sheep.. But it does not say he did not lay his life down for everyone.

we can go on and on..

I like the make the bible agree. not contradict..