Did Jesus ever tell us that we no longer need to keep the law of Moses?

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Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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First, notice how you keep having to mix in Paul's letter to make Peter's letter say what you want it to say, when that's literally the "twisting" Peter warned about.


Perfection (to become the perfect image of Christ) is the process of sanctification.

Perfection is not justification. Justification is cleansing from sins.

You must understand this difference to understand what Peter and Paul and James are talking about in each of their respective letters.

Paul's letter to the galatians is discussing justification. Justification. Justification. Not sanctification. You keep quoting the galatians passage literally with the word "justified" in there and yet you keep missing it.

Peter's letter in question is discussing sanctification (growing in godliness; holiness), which is the believer's burden to make every effort in. He says it twice in his letter: "make every effort"..."make every effort". And when we sin (i.e. break a law) we go to the throne to confess and Christ cleanses/justifies us again (because there's nothing in the law that can do that for us).

So to answer your question; my effort to perfect myself will be EQUAL to Christ perfecting me, because that's what grace is: the Almighty's divine instruction from Christ, placed in me to FOLLOW, to live in godliness (Titus 2:12).

Christ works on the inside of me, on my heart. And *I* must work on the outside of me, on my walk.

The promise of "Christ's holy spirit in you" was NEVER a promise of "Christ doing the work of your obedience for you". Never. Search all of the scriptures and you will never find that promise made.


Yah does nothing unless he first reveals it to his servants the prophets (amos 3:7).


If you can find your promise anywhere...absolutely anywhere...I will definitely consider it. But if you can't find the promise of "Christ doing the work of your obedience in you, for you" anywhere in the "OT" then it was never a promise made by the Almighty, and Yah has not done it. Yah doesn't fulfill promises he never made.

The promise you WILL find in scripture is "Christ's Holy Spirit in you changing your heart to make you WANT to obey". That promise is in Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:27. Two or more witnesses establish truth. That was the promise, no more, no less. You yourself still must make every effort to obey once your heart is changed. The apostles knew this.

Grace is the WANT; the talent of gold that the king gifts to his servants and expects them to put the effort/work into making grow (Matthew 25:14). Obedience is the effort/work expected by the servant that makes it grace grow.

"GROW IN GRACE and in the KNOWING of our master and savior..."

"...Unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ."

Perfection.

----

This is what Peter's phrase means when he says "the ignorant and unstable twist Paul's words". Those who don't know iron-clad truths like Amos 3:7, Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:27 unwittingly twist Paul's words to their own pending doom, and then teach others the same error of lawlessness, causing whole crops of people to be lost.

There's the promise never to destroy the world again by water...

There's the promise of being an heir through faith like Abraham, being a blessing to the world...

There's the promise of becoming a royal nation of priests through obedience to the law...

There's the promise of David not wanting for a man to sit on his throne...

There's the promise of putting Yah's laws in one's heart, circumcising it to move one (i.e. make one want) to obey his laws...

And scripture says each one of these promises are perpetual/everlasting.

So if you can find the promise made by Yah anywhere in the Torah & the Prophets that says "Christ (or the Spirit of Yah...or grace) will do the work of your obedience in you, for you", then I will consider it.


The promise is the foundation of everything we're discussing.

The promise is everything.
Ezekiel 36:24-28
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.


The error of the wicked, which is the error of the lawless, continues to be the thought that people are "law-keepers" because they look to the law to obey it.

All that happens when people think they obey the law is what happened with the Pharisees. They thought they were righteous because of their work. They made up extra laws to "expound" on the 10 commandments.

The same exact thing that people do today who pretend they are following the 10 commandments by their own efforts.

Unless God is the One who cleanses you, you are not clean.
Unless God is the One who makes you godly, you are not godly.
Unless God is the One who makes you Righteous, you are not righteous.
Unless God is the One who Saves you, you are not saved.
Unless God is the One that produces the fruit, you will not produce fruit.

You didn't get it the first few times. There is obviously some sort of disconnect between you and the scriptures.

This happens when someone doesn't understand Paul or Peter they pretty much wrestle with ALL the scriptures.

Romans 9:32-33
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Herein lies the "rub", as I, and others (I think) see it, Grandpa.
Christendom, in general, has accepted Jesus of Nazareth as Lord and Savior, High Priest and Kinsmen Redeemer. But, to greater, and lessor extents? REJECTED He who SENT Jesus of Nazareth. By their downright refusal to go onward TO the Father that sent Jesus!

One side is saying Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!
The other side is saying Jesus and His Father! Jesus and His Father!

One side is rejecting the WHOLE GOVERNMENT of the Kingdom, that Jesus CARRIES, on His shoulder.
The other side does not. And, at least in my case, and others as well (I think), are striving in the telling of that, or those things REQUIRED to "enter" into this government.


One side is "boasting AGAINST the branches!"

The other side REALIZES that which COULD happen, should "wild olive trees" REJECT "THE ROOT!"

Consider the "Days of Noah!"
Or? Likewise? To put things more currently?
Consider the election of Donald Trump!
Just as in the days of Noah? NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY EVEN THOUGHT Trump could EVER be elected!
Nobody THOUGHT God would flood the earth either!
Then, it started to rain.



(continued next post)
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

This is God the Father giving His Son Authority.

When you say that the Lord Jesus does not have this Authority you are NOT saying Jesus and His Father. You are instead saying you want to take some of this Authority away from Christ and give it to what you have imagined is Gods Will. As if it would somehow be different than what Christ says and Paul expounds on.

Boasting against the branches... sigh

The Lord Jesus Christ IS the root.

Ephesians 3:17-19
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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That's the same error that the Lord Jesus pointed out to the Pharisees.

John 5:39-40
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The scripture can't give you Life. The scripture can't give you godliness. The scripture can't give you Salvation.

Only the Lord Jesus Christ can give these things.
Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luke 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.



The scripture can't give you Life. The scripture can't give you godliness. The scripture can't give you Salvation
AND THE WORD (SCRIPTURE) WAS MADE FLESH AND DWELT AMONG US
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
New Living Translation
“You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!
English Standard Version
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
Berean Study Bible
You pore over the Scriptures because you presume that by them you possess eternal life. These are the very words that testify about Me,
Berean Literal Bible
You diligently search the Scriptures because you think to have eternal life in them, and these are they bearing witness concerning Me;
New American Standard Bible
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
King James Bible
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Christian Standard Bible
You pore over the Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, and yet they testify about me.
Contemporary English Version
You search the Scriptures, because you think you will find eternal life in them. The Scriptures tell about me,
Good News Translation
You study the Scriptures, because you think that in them you will find eternal life. And these very Scriptures speak about me!


40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life? It is mans "will" that "will not"
New Living Translation
Yet you refuse to come to me to receive this life.
English Standard Version
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Berean Study Bible
yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.
Berean Literal Bible
and you are not willing to come to Me, that you may have life.
New American Standard Bible
and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
King James Bible
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Christian Standard Bible
But you are not willing to come to me so that you may have life.
Contemporary English Version
but you refuse to come to me for eternal life.

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
John 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

This is God the Father giving His Son Authority.

When you say that the Lord Jesus does not have this Authority you are NOT saying Jesus and His Father. You are instead saying you want to take some of this Authority away from Christ and give it to what you have imagined is Gods Will. As if it would somehow be different than what Christ says and Paul expounds on.

Boasting against the branches... sigh

The Lord Jesus Christ IS the root.

Ephesians 3:17-19
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Romans 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Being an adopted son of God is being a Joint heir WITH Christ! Not seeking to, nor even WANTING to take ANY AUTHORITY away FROM Christ! NOR, the Father!
Oh contr'aire!
Can you not see what you are doing?
You are refusing the "Spirit of Adoption!"
If you can't tell the difference between a "child of God", the "spirit of adoption", "the spirit of God", and how, and what this has to do with being an "adopted son of God?"

Then, it's not my imagination where the problem lies.
The problem is in one's own imagination, in one's not allowing God to be God!
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
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Oh, it is right round the corner. Fire. And at the end of this one, no more evil will make it through to see the New City.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Ezekiel 36:24-28
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
With respect, did you read the passage you just posted? This is the passage I just reference in my reply.

Again, Ezekiel 36 is the heart change that makes one WANT to obey.

Again, can you show me where the promise is that "Christ or the Holy Spirit is doing the work of your obedience for you, in you"?


The error of the wicked, which is the error of the lawless, continues to be the thought that people are "law-keepers" because they look to the law to obey it.
Please read how incongruous your statement is above. "The error of law-LESS-ness (i.e. disobeying the law; breaking the law; operating outside of the law) continues to be the thought that people are 'law-keepers' because they look to the law to obey it."

I mean no disrespect to you personally, but in any other setting in life you YOURSELF would say this statement is madness or mental illness, can't you see that? I'm not calling you that, I just want you to step out of our discussion and just read the statement on its face.

In the country where you live, is an error of lawlessness to "think" that people are "law-KEEPERS" because they look to the law of the land to obey it? Be honest. Do you really think that thought is a lawless thought...or is it a lawful thought?


All that happens when people think they obey the law is what happened with the Pharisees. They thought they were righteous because of their work. They made up extra laws to "expound" on the 10 commandments.
Please read what you just ^^^said ^^^ here! You explain exactly what the pharisees wrongdoing was. Their error was NOT in obedience, THEY MADE UP LAWS!

If you make up your own laws to follow in your country, which contradict the laws of the land, are you obeying the laws of the land or not??

The same exact thing that people do today who pretend they are following the 10 commandments by their own efforts.
People who follow the 10 commandments are making up their own laws like the pharisees? Which one of the 10 commandments isn't from Yah? Which one is made up?


Unless God is the One who cleanses you, you are not clean.
True. We're not talking about cleansing (justification) but the effort after cleansing (sanctification).

Unless God is the One who makes you godly, you are not godly.
Yah gives the divine power that we are to use. But we have to become godly daily. That is our job.

Unless God is the One who makes you Righteous, you are not righteous.
True. And after you are made righteous you must put forth the effort and walk in that righteousness, else you'll fall from that righteousness.

Unless God is the One who Saves you, you are not saved.
True. And after you are delivered from bondage you must walk in righteousness and "sin no more". Sin is breaking the law.

Unless God is the One that produces the fruit, you will not produce fruit.
Yah provides the root to graft into and the life-giving water to sustain and He prunes his tree, but we produce the fruit. That is our job. We produce the fruit and Yah receives the increase/glory. Any branch that doesn't produce fruit will be broken off.

This happens when someone doesn't understand Paul or Peter they pretty much wrestle with ALL the scriptures.
There is harmony, no mental gymnastics necessary if we just read what is written. No backflips needed. Yah is not the author of confusion. Obedience means obedience. Lawfulness mean lawfulness. Disobedience mean disobedience. Lawlessness means lawlessness.

Lawlessness does NOT mean obedience to a government's law. In no facet of life will that ever be true, whether on earth or in heaven.
 
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All that happens when people think they obey the law is what happened with the Pharisees. They thought they were righteous because of their work. They made up extra laws to "expound" on the 10 commandments.

You must be reading some other history of the Pharisees. They followed the Babylonian Talmud which was/is hostile to the Torah! It literally legalizes everything the Torah forbids!

You speak as if the Pharisees were righteous observers of the Torah, nothing could be further from the truth! Are you kidding?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Surely each man will stand or fall before God. Many think God created us for our pleasure or happiness as if to say that God exists to make man happy while he is alive, while others say that God is there to make man happy after he dies. There is a disturbing theme in there; Mans happiness! Israel were considered servants and yet God referred to Jacob/Israel when speaking to Pharoah as His Firstborn. So as a son or as a servant Israel or we have an interest in our Father/Masters will. This is essentially what we are being brought into the fullness of; sonship! Jesus was the firstborn of many. The son who humbly takes the form of a servant. Who humbly seeks the inherent character of his Father. Gods character is reflected in the Laws OT & NT. They were/are His will. So when men push back at the offer of sonship they need to reconsider what the Holy Spirit is attempting to usher them into.

Sure, we have stainless and can sterilize it compared to wood utencils, but then again there are certain patients who when they have surgical procedures, all the instruments from their cases must be disposed of because no amount of sterilization can kill a prion! Many of these diseases are passed on from infected dead animals, so when you think you have outlived the rational of Gods commandments....think again! :)
I have no idea how you could see in my post "...a disturbing theme in there; Mans happiness!"

I was thinking more along these lines when I wrote the post
Romans 8: 29. For whom he foreknew, he also predestined
to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Being conformed to the image of Christ!


Yes, I agree that "Gods character is reflected in the Laws OT & NT. "
though I would say that it is most perfectly reflected in Jesus, not in letters that can be written on stone paper.

Colossians 1: 15. who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

1 John 3: 1. Behold, how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!

Again, we cannot keep all of The commandments, the bulk of them are physically impossible today. So, do we decide for ourselves which ones to keep? Or does the spirit lead us? And if the spirit leads us, does the spirit lead us to just keep some of the laws, or to fulfill all of them?


That's interesting about prions, and I didn't know that. some research around the internet shows that prions can be destroyed with bleach and high temperature. But given how hard they are to destroy, it looks like they would be much more likely to end up on restaurant plates or and cereal grains stored with an occasional rat then on some plates from the thrift store that have been thoroughly cleaned. So again, I don't see a benefit to breaking them.
Do you eat at restaurants?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Not at all what I'm saying.

What I will say is "Ain't it funny how a man sees or hears what they wanna see and hear, and everything else is so much water on a duck's back?"

As I'm also certain that you only read the posts with your name attached to 'em. Right?

Same reason the scribes and pharasee's back in the days of Christ, were always so accussatory. Always asking silly questions. Cuz, Jesus was always REMINDING them of how void they had made the Word of God, by their traditions.
Micah 6
9 The Lord's voice crieth unto the city, and the man of wisdom shall see thy name: hear ye the rod, and who hath appointed it.

My advice? Stick with the "milk." If that is where your "peace" is? Stick with it.
Looks like I misunderstood you, then I asked the question again
Are you saying that the commandments in Deuteronomy were not laws?
Perhaps I should ask the question a different way. Do you attempt to physically perform as many of the instructions in The book of Leviticus as you possibly can? And if so, do you attempt to physically perform as many of the instructions in the book of Deuteronomy as you possibly can?
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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The Holy Spirit has led me to eat only the "clean" beasts, and to abstain from blood and fat. If it is Kosher, its a go. Tell me is the Holy Spirit a person in your view? View attachment 202206
Thanks! And in your view, is it possible that the holy Spirit could lead someone else to follow different dietary laws, or no dietary laws at all?

Yes, the holy spirit is a person in the same sense that the father is a person and the son is a person.
 
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I have no idea how you could see in my post "...a disturbing theme in there; Mans happiness!"
Chalk it up to me just bloviating! :)

Yes, I agree that "Gods character is reflected in the Laws OT & NT. "
though I would say that it is most perfectly reflected in Jesus, not in letters that can be written on stone paper.
Agreed, but we know Jesus by faith which we receive when we read His words in the OT and NT. It is that faith, expressed in obedience that ushers us into His presence.

There is a place/a gateway provided by the words on paper and stone though...wouldn't you agree? Rom 10:17 KJV So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


Again, we cannot keep all of The commandments, the bulk of them are physically impossible today. So, do we decide for ourselves which ones to keep? Or does the spirit lead us? And if the spirit leads us, does the spirit lead us to just keep some of the laws, or to fulfill all of them?
So, if there are some you can keep today, do you feel led to? Also regarding the temple, prayerfully consider them ones you speak of in reference to;

1Co 3:16 KJV Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

A regular diet of humbly reading the word of God and meditating on it as well produces different results than occasionally reading scripture. It is certain that our time on here may be productive from time to time, but time alone in the word with the Holy Spirit is where the knowledge comes and then when we humble ourselves and apply that knowledge prayerfully another dynamic begins to reveal itself. Jesus manifesting Himself to us;

Isa 26:3 KJV Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

Isa 57:15 KJV For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Jer 29:13 KJV And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.


:)
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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Chalk it up to me just bloviating! :)



Agreed, but we know Jesus by faith which we receive when we read His words in the OT and NT. It is that faith, expressed in obedience that ushers us into His presence.

There is a place/a gateway provided by the words on paper and stone though...wouldn't you agree? Rom 10:17 KJV So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.




So, if there are some you can keep today, do you feel led to? Also regarding the temple, prayerfully consider them ones you speak of in reference to;

1Co 3:16 KJV Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

A regular diet of humbly reading the word of God and meditating on it as well produces different results than occasionally reading scripture. It is certain that our time on here may be productive from time to time, but time alone in the word with the Holy Spirit is where the knowledge comes and then when we humble ourselves and apply that knowledge prayerfully another dynamic begins to reveal itself. Jesus manifesting Himself to us;

Isa 26:3 KJV Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

Isa 57:15 KJV For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Jer 29:13 KJV And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.


:)
I've never heard of the word
bloviating
I had to look it up!

I would say that we know Jesus when we read his words, yes, and also the words of the prophets and apostles throughout the scriptures. And I wouldn't rule out personal direct communion with Jesus through the spirit
John 16: 12. "I have yet many things to tell you, but you can't bear them now.

I agree that there is a gateway for faith in hearing the word of God. I would also say that it is a gateway, not a destination... The destination is how that faith is played out in our daily lives. That is why I frequently ask people about their activities, how they put their faith into practice!

I would say that I feel led to keep, or rather fulfill, all of The commandments.

Yes, I agree that Christians are metaphorically the temple of God. but we are not a physical temple with a physical alter capable of having a fire on which to burn grain as here

Leviticus 2: 1. And when anyone makes a meal offering to the Lord, let his offering be of the best meal, with oil on it and perfume: 2. And let him take it to Aaron's sons, the priests; and having taken in his hand some of the meal and of the oil, with all the perfume, let him give it to the priest to be burned on the altar, as a sign, an offering made by fire, for a sweet smell to the Lord.

I agree that regular Bible reading and humble meditation is good
Psalm 1: 1. Happy is the man who does not go in the company of sinners, or take his place in the way of evil-doers, or in the seat of those who do not give honour to the Lord. 2. But whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and whose mind is on his law day and night.

Though please keep in mind that there have been many Christians throughout the centuries who couldn't read or didn't have a Bible in their language. I believe God is able to grow such people in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, and to conform them to his image, if they earnestly desire it. As God says, it isn't by might nor by power but by his spirit.
 
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I would say that I feel led to keep, or rather fulfill, all of The commandments.
Nice to hear. It does seem off when so many rail against that leading. I have heard so many on here speak of the "righteousness of the Pharisees", but they were outright hypocrites?! And the Babylonian Talmud (traditions of the elders) literally reverses all of the commandments of God. So when someone cites the righteousness of the Pharisees as some high mark I cringe and think of Jesus' words;

Mat 5:20 KJV For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 23:27 KJV Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.


Yes, I agree that Christians are metaphorically the temple of God. but we are not a physical temple with a physical alter capable of having a fire on which to burn grain as here
We have the admonition to offer ourselves a living sacrifice. And the only sacrifices were without spot or blemish. Now I can reckon the Justification for salvation is what brings us to a place to receive the Holy Spirit, but I can assure you the without spot or blemish is referring to our steadfastness in the sanctification process.



Though please keep in mind that there have been many Christians throughout the centuries who couldn't read or didn't have a Bible in their language. I believe God is able to grow such people in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, and to conform them to his image, if they earnestly desire it. As God says, it isn't by might nor by power but by his spirit.
I think so, but there is definitely need for hearing the Word of God. Others can read to them, they can attend sessions, etc I do not think there would be enough faith without it. But I have no concern, because I know what the Holy Spirit would compel them and the believers they fellowship with to do! :)




Psalm 1: 1. Happy is the man who does not go in the company of sinners, or take his place in the way of evil-doers, or in the seat of those who do not give honour to the Lord. 2. But whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and whose mind is on his law day and night.
:)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
We have the admonition to offer ourselves a living sacrifice. And the only sacrifices were without spot or blemish. Now I can reckon the Justification for salvation is what brings us to a place to receive the Holy Spirit, but I can assure you the without spot or blemish is referring to our steadfastness in the sanctification process.
Oh Boy..

The without spot and blemish represented Christ. I can assure you, No matter how sanctified you THINK YOU ARE you are NOT without spot and blemish.
 
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You're starting to see it too huh?

The veil is being lifted.

Greetings Y,

I know you have looked at this, just a few verses with the Definitions. Leave a couple questions. I would appreciate your take on the words in question.

Thanks

SG

Joh 3:16 KJV For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:16 KJV+ ForG1063 GodG2316 soG3779 lovedG25 theG3588 world,G2889 thatG5620 he gaveG1325 hisG848 only begottenG3439 Son,G5207 thatG2443 whosoeverG3956 believethG4100 inG1519 himG846 should notG3361 perish,G622 butG235 haveG2192 everlastingG166 life.G2222


G4100
πιστεύω
pisteuō
Thayer Definition:
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4102
Citing in TDNT: 6:174, 849
Total KJV Occurrences: 250




Joh 3:36 KJV He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 3:36 KJV+ He that believethG4100 onG1519 theG3588 SonG5207 hathG2192 everlastingG166 life:G2222 andG1161 he that believethG544 not theG3588 SonG5207 shall notG3756 seeG3700 life;G2222 butG235 theG3588 wrathG3709 of GodG2316 abidethG3306 onG1909 him.G846

G544
ἀπειθέω
apeitheō
Thayer Definition:
1) not to allow one’s self to be persuaded
1a) to refuse or withhold belief
1b) to refuse belief and obedience
2) not to comply with

Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G545
Citing in TDNT: 6:10, 818
Total KJV Occurrences: 16

Strongs:

G544
ἀπειθέω
apeitheō
ap-i-theh'-o
From G545; to disbelieve (wilfully and perversely): - not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving.


Jas 2:19 KJV+ ThouG4771 believestG4100 thatG3754 there isG2076 oneG1520 God;G2316 thou doestG4160 well:G2573 theG3588 devilsG1140 alsoG2532 believe,G4100 andG2532 tremble.G5425
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Got to love people who think they are without spot and blemish

On the other hand we should feel sorry for them
 
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Heb 10:38-39 KJV Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
 

Eli12

Active member
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Heb 10:38-39 KJV Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Heb 5:9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him

No person has "everlasting salvation" since we are still waiting for the Judgement Day.

Rev.20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.

The problem here is some people think they are already saved. My question is: saved from what?
 
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Heb 5:9 And after he had been made perfect, he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him

No person has "everlasting salvation" since we are still waiting for the Judgement Day.

Rev.20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. The dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the Grave gave up the dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.

The problem here is some people think they are already saved. My question is: saved from what?

Well said Eli12,

I was considering the two verses in Hebrews there and how the Israelites were redeemed from Egypt came under the blood/lintel doorposts Justification, walked out of Egypt/Redemption, Passed through the Red Sea/Baptism Came face to face with Gods requirements, The Laws and agreed/Sanctification Walk in procession to the Promised Land/Future Glorification! But many of them DREW BACK! God was/is in the process of purging the flesh, the carnal man through His Holy Spirit! This takes time in the wilderness! Nope, it aint Egypt! It's a life of abstinance, obedience crucifying the flesh, but many DRAW BACK and God is NOT PLEASED with us when we do that, we cannot do that. The terms are to go through the process of sanctification! The flesh hates it! Many who scream back at anyone who says you must submit the flesh to the cross, it must die! They do not want the flesh to die so they fight that which proves it's alive! THE LAW! The flesh HATES the law and does not want it, but those who submit to the introspection of the Holy Spirit as it courses throughout the secret chambers of lusts and pleasure in sin and pride will find the process is only as hard as you hold on to your sins! Let them go, submit to Gods requirements. If not, if you choose to DRAW BACK;

Heb 10:38-39 KJV Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

If there is permanent salvation then this verse is moot, means nothing if there's nothing to draw back unto perdition! RIGHT?

Thanks for sharing those verses. Something should shake that lie out of their consciousness sooner or later! Thankfully we have the Holy Spirit to soften our heart and give us the desire to walk in obedience!
 
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Hi to all :)

Just some constructive feedback. It seems to me as an outsider here looking in, that there may be some misunderstandings in relation to what you guys collectively are arguing about.

It seems that one group thinks the other group is saying that they are saved by what they do and the other side believe that the other groups believes that obedience is not a fruit of ones faith. Is this correct and could this be a misunderstanding that may be happening in this thread?

Does anyone believe they are saved by the things they do?

Does anyone believe they are saved if they do not follow what God has asked us to do?

For me I believe we are only saved by grace through faith by the blood of Jesus and faith in his word and because he has given me a heart to love him and my neighbore I choose to follow him who laid his life down for me that I might live.

Maybe there is a misunderstanding in what is being shared here? I do not know God does. Hope you do not mind me sharing my thoughts from an outsider looking in. Remember without love we are nothing just the same as without Jesus we cannot do anything.

Blessings all.