Dispensationalism...

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Jan 14, 2021
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no sir

Israel is blinded in part. and they will remain blind until the time of the gentile is completed.

And then the redeemer will come, and all Israel will repent, and be saved.

Gentiles are not a part. Paul warned us as gentile believers not to be proud..
Are you calling Christ and Paul gentiles?
 

Beckie

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"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." - Rev 12:5 KJV

"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords." - Rev 19:13-16 KJV

Isa 66's man child lines up with Rev 12's man child, which is Christ per Rev 19.
Totally agree. Thanks for the support to the point.
 

Pilgrimshope

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"And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne." - Rev 12:5 KJV

"And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords." - Rev 19:13-16 KJV

Isa 66's man child lines up with Rev 12's man child, which is Christ per Rev 19.
yes “the son Of man “ would sit at Gods right hand and be seated on heavens throne of power and judgement

Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭22:69‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19‬

that’s what we are seeing in revelation 12 the ot had promised male child a son would be born and when he died he would rise to life d be taken up to sit on the throne as king

“And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:1-2, 5‬ ‭

the woman who is going to bear a son is Israel Jesus is the son she was expecting the “ messiah “ and king


This is a consistent promise of God on the ot

“And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”


This king would rule with a rod of iron ( his word ) from Gods throne until all things are brought beneath his rule this promosed king who would be lord over all the earth and heaven

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. ( Jesus would sit on the kings throne in the future )

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. ( Jesus baptism )

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, And the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. ( God would give him all creation )

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. ( his word would break sinners and dash the unrepentant to pieces )

Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: Be instructed, ye judges of the earth. (The disciples of Jesus are being made to be kings and preists )

Serve the LORD with fear, And rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, When his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭2:6-

all who trust in Jesus who is on his t be me in heaven now since he was taken up will be blessed and saved eternally

Israel was told for many hundreds of years this promise of the son

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And his whole life and after is in scriptire he would be seated at Gods right hand on the throne until all things came under his rule and reign

Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

…but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.


Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:30, 32-36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The son of man is on his throne
 

Beckie

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Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
 

Beckie

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Jesus tells us Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I read here ,this site, over and over how Jesus will set on another's throne, on earth . Many here are looking for a literal throne? Does any one know where Daivd's throne is so Jesus can barrow it for some years?

Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
 

Pilgrimshope

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Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
When God made the promise to David he told him this time he was going to make a home for his people that would never again fail he would build a house for David and his people

“Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel: Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning, and since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house.”
‭‭1 Chronicles‬ ‭17:7, 9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the earthly land was already established the boundaries and inheritances by the law of Moses David’s promise is about the place God ups ordain for his people the heavenly kingdom of Jesus the heavenly promised land

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

….But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all,

and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

mount sion ( zion ) is the heavenly Jerusalem made of the promises of Jesus Christ
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Jesus tells us Joh_18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

I read here ,this site, over and over how Jesus will set on another's throne, on earth . Many here are looking for a literal throne? Does any one know where Daivd's throne is so Jesus can barrow it for some years?

Act 7:49 Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?
The davidic covenant.

Jesus WILL sit on davids throne

as for where it is. It is in Jerusalem.

So many OT prophets speak of these events.. Why would you discount them?

The spiritual kingdom is not of this world. Amen. It is eternal

But that does not negate that the Bible prophesies of a literal kingdom. Where Jesus rules with a rod of iron..
 
Jan 14, 2021
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Gen 17: And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
It's hard to remember who I've had conversations with before, so bear with me if we've already talked about this in a different thread and come to a stalemate. The source material for those passages says "seed" singular referring to the Seed. These are Seed promises per Gal 3:16. If you were the one I was talking with before I recall some counter argument about composite seeds. The point still comes back to the fact that all of this is in Christ. The Seed is Christ, and there are those in Christ.

I assume that every Dispensationalist still believes that every saved Jew becomes Christian in the end anyway (which would make them partakers in the Seed promises by being coheirs with Christ like every other Christian). I don't want to assume though. Do you agree that all saved Jews eventually become Christian?

We see in different passages that clearly not all that calls themselves Jews are saved and that only a remnant of Israel are saved. I assume that Dispensationalist still believe that the saved Jews would have an inherent spiritual nature that compels them to have reverence for God the Father despite misunderstanding the truth of the cross and God the Son, and that the fruits of their spiritual nature are not yet realized. Can we tell the difference between saved Jews and doomed/fake/unsaved Jews by their fruits?

You have yet to explain how something eternal can end when the thing is still here
That was my point. It makes no sense to say "this group owns this land forever" if the land itself isn't eternal. Either "forever" is actually "in perpetuity" or "old earth" is "new earth" and the land is eternal.

If you are proposing that "new earth" is just a reformatted version of "old earth" and that the land is genuinely eternal, I don't see anything wrong with that.

The eternal land perspective seems to be what you're proposing. Is it?

Israel is blinded in part. and they will remain blind until the time of the gentile is completed.
Until the fullness of the gentiles comes in, not time of the gentiles. There can be seasons of fullness and waves of true Israel come in. It is impossible for the meaning to be rendered as "people of Israel will only join at the end of time all at once"

That "in part" bit is a clear indication that the other part of true Israel is already Christian.

If they repent, God will remember his promise.
True repentence and removal of blindness comes in the form of turning to Christ and accepting the New Testament. If you believe repentance is required for the promise to take effect, it truly is the case that no nonChristian Jew inherits the promise. No nonChristian Jews would have any right to any land described through that.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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It's hard to remember who I've had conversations with before, so bear with me if we've already talked about this in a different thread and come to a stalemate. The source material for those passages says "seed" singular referring to the Seed. These are Seed promises per Gal 3:16. If you were the one I was talking with before I recall some counter argument about composite seeds. The point still comes back to the fact that all of this is in Christ. The Seed is Christ, and there are those in Christ.
Christ was not promised land
Christ was not told he and his descendents would be given a plot of land in the middle east
Christ was not told the land would be his but he had to wait 400 years
Christ was not later given a blessing and a warning that if you obey me, You will live in peace. Your enemies will not touch you. and your land will produce. But if you disobay me, I will punish you 7 times. the final punishment being destruction of your land and temple and you being removed from your land and enslaved by your enemy until you repent.
I assume that every Dispensationalist still believes that every saved Jew becomes Christian in the end anyway (which would make them partakers in the Seed promises by being coheirs with Christ like every other Christian). I don't want to assume though. Do you agree that all saved Jews eventually become Christian?
The land promise has nothing to do with anyones salvation. It was a plot of Land given to a people. All they had to do was be born into that family or nation.. Any outsider would have to work to be able to be considered part of that promise.

We see in different passages that clearly not all that calls themselves Jews are saved and that only a remnant of Israel are saved. I assume that Dispensationalist still believe that the saved Jews would have an inherent spiritual nature that compels them to have reverence for God the Father despite misunderstanding the truth of the cross and God the Son, and that the fruits of their spiritual nature are not yet realized. Can we tell the difference between saved Jews and doomed/fake/unsaved Jews by their fruits?
Again, this is not about salvation. I do not see why people make this a salvation issue.. God did not tell abraham I give your descendents after you salvation. He said I give you this land.
[quuote]

That was my point. It makes no sense to say "this group owns this land forever" if the land itself isn't eternal. Either "forever" is actually "in perpetuity" or "old earth" is "new earth" and the land is eternal.[/quote]
Well if you do not want to believe the promise made to a nation is no longer valid. I guess you would not believe anythign that may support it.
If you are proposing that "new earth" is just a reformatted version of "old earth" and that the land is genuinely eternal, I don't see anything wrong with that.

The eternal land perspective seems to be what you're proposing. Is it?
I am proposing that God gave land to a nation and promised it to them forever. and as long as that land is in existence. the promise still stands.

Until the fullness of the gentiles comes in, not time of the gentiles. There can be seasons of fullness and waves of true Israel come in. It is impossible for the meaning to be rendered as "people of Israel will only join at the end of time all at once"
the full term of the gentiles or fullness of the gentiles is the time aloted to Gentile kingdoms to rule over israel.

It will be completed chen the lamb comes to destroy the statue of Daniel 2. or the beast of Daniel 7

That "in part" bit is a clear indication that the other part of true Israel is already Christian.
Actually no. IN part is only sensible if you are talking about a particular group. and only part of them are doing something.

If spiritual jew is in question. there would be no in part at all it would be all

Also. in romans 11. Paul differentiates between saved and unsaved jews as Isreal. and saved gentiles as gentile

True repentence and removal of blindness comes in the form of turning to Christ and accepting the New Testament. If you believe repentance is required for the promise to take effect, it truly is the case that no nonChristian Jew inherits the promise. No nonChristian Jews would have any right to any land described through that.
repentance is only required to be restored to the promise.

Non saved jews lived in the land of promise for centuries.. They even crucified christ while in the land of promise..
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
It's hard to remember who I've had conversations with before, so bear with me if we've already talked about this in a different thread and come to a stalemate. The source material for those passages says "seed" singular referring to the Seed. These are Seed promises per Gal 3:16. If you were the one I was talking with before I recall some counter argument about composite seeds. The point still comes back to the fact that all of this is in Christ. The Seed is Christ, and there are those in Christ.

I assume that every Dispensationalist still believes that every saved Jew becomes Christian in the end anyway (which would make them partakers in the Seed promises by being coheirs with Christ like every other Christian). I don't want to assume though. Do you agree that all saved Jews eventually become Christian?

We see in different passages that clearly not all that calls themselves Jews are saved and that only a remnant of Israel are saved. I assume that Dispensationalist still believe that the saved Jews would have an inherent spiritual nature that compels them to have reverence for God the Father despite misunderstanding the truth of the cross and God the Son, and that the fruits of their spiritual nature are not yet realized. Can we tell the difference between saved Jews and doomed/fake/unsaved Jews by their fruits?



That was my point. It makes no sense to say "this group owns this land forever" if the land itself isn't eternal. Either "forever" is actually "in perpetuity" or "old earth" is "new earth" and the land is eternal.

If you are proposing that "new earth" is just a reformatted version of "old earth" and that the land is genuinely eternal, I don't see anything wrong with that.

The eternal land perspective seems to be what you're proposing. Is it?



Until the fullness of the gentiles comes in, not time of the gentiles. There can be seasons of fullness and waves of true Israel come in. It is impossible for the meaning to be rendered as "people of Israel will only join at the end of time all at once"

That "in part" bit is a clear indication that the other part of true Israel is already Christian.



True repentence and removal of blindness comes in the form of turning to Christ and accepting the New Testament. If you believe repentance is required for the promise to take effect, it truly is the case that no nonChristian Jew inherits the promise. No nonChristian Jews would have any right to any land described through that.

Well the Bible says eternal. So you may need to change your thinking there.
 
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Christ was not promised land
Not even Talmudic Jews take that position.

"And I will give unto thee, and to [Christ] after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." - Gen 17:7 with Gal 3:16 cross reference

Gen 17:7 and Gal 3:16 state that Jesus was promised land per the Christian Bible. Your claim that Christ does not inherit land is wrong at face value.

Even from a Talmudic Jewish perspective, all Jews were coheirs to the promises. The only conclusion you seem to be suggesting is that Jesus was not a Jew, which is absurd.


The land promise has nothing to do with anyones salvation
If you are following your proposed "old earth" = "new earth" interpretation, it absolutely has to do with salvation.

He said I give you this land.
He said that the land would go to Abraham and Seed. It is very clearly not given to all Hebrews. When it was given to Jacob-Israel and Seed, it was very clearly not given to all Israelites. It's not as though God's promises were in vain: for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. The children of the flesh are not the children of God but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Well if you do not want to believe the promise made to a nation is no longer valid.
Now you are being inconsistent with yourself. From your perspective was the promise made to a nation or descendants?

I am proposing that God gave land to a nation and promised it to them forever. and as long as that land is in existence. the promise still stands.
You seem to be withdrawing from the "old earth" = "new earth" interpretation. If what you say is what you feel, you don't actually mean "forever" then, you mean "in perpetuity". There's nothing wrong with that interpretation either. But I would like clarification for which model you are proposing.

and as long as that land is in existence. the promise still stands.
You stated yourself that possession of the land only comes with repentence per Lev 26.

repentance is only required to be restored to the promise.
Do you believe true repentance is possible without Christ?

Actually no. IN part is only sensible if you are talking about a particular group. and only part of them are doing something.
Particular group = Israel
Part of them doing something = blindness

What does "blindness in part has happened to Israel" mean to you?

When I read this, it clearly means that part of Israel is blind. Which de facto means that another part of Israel is not blind.

Is Paul not part of Israel? Is Christ not part of Israel?

Non saved jews lived in the land of promise for centuries.. They even crucified
An empire that rises to power is not evidence of its righteousness or true claim to anything. We see in Rom 9:17 that even unrighteous people like the Pharaoh were raised to power solely for the purpose of being made an example of. The same is true for Babylon and its whore in Revelation. It rains and shines on the just and unjust alike.

Another question that comes to mind is what do you consider to count as possession? Merely living in the land? Autonomous governance in the land? A voice at the table? Is co-possession still counted as possession?

Dispensationalists must either openly reject the Bible or accept that Christians are coheirs to the promise made to Abraham.
 

Everlasting-Grace

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Not even Talmudic Jews take that position.

"And I will give unto thee, and to [Christ] after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God." - Gen 17:7 with Gal 3:16 cross reference

Gen 17:7 and Gal 3:16 state that Jesus was promised land per the Christian Bible. Your claim that Christ does not inherit land is wrong at face value.

Even from a Talmudic Jewish perspective, all Jews were coheirs to the promises. The only conclusion you seem to be suggesting is that Jesus was not a Jew, which is absurd.
You replaced the word seed with Christ.

Thats changing the word..

Seed in the context of this land is descendants. Not Christ.

Christ will get the whole world. Not just a plot of land in the middle east.

If you are following your proposed "old earth" = "new earth" interpretation, it absolutely has to do with salvation.
Never had anything to do with salvation.
your trying to teach replacement theology. That is not in the word.

He said that the land would go to Abraham and Seed. It is very clearly not given to all Hebrews. When it was given to Jacob-Israel and Seed, it was very clearly not given to all Israelites. It's not as though God's promises were in vain: for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. The children of the flesh are not the children of God but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
The land was given to abraham. And ONE of abrahams son (Isaac), and ONE of his sons sons (jacob) andf then to all 12 of Jacobs sons and their seed or descendents.

Now you are being inconsistent with yourself. From your perspective was the promise made to a nation or descendants?
Abraham gave birth to Isaac. who gave birth to Jacob, who gave birth to 12 sons.

these are the descendents of the promise. also called the nation of Israel.

I am not bein ginconsistent man. Stop trying to make up excuses to not see what I am saying

You seem to be withdrawing from the "old earth" = "new earth" interpretation. If what you say is what you feel, you don't actually mean "forever" then, you mean "in perpetuity". There's nothing wrong with that interpretation either. But I would like clarification for which model you are proposing.
You keep deflecting..

In every case of my view.. the land belongs to isreal.

In your view. it is no longer the case. Your the one with the flaw. not me/


You stated yourself that possession of the land only comes with repentence per Lev 26.[/quote[
No, I said if they are REMOVED from the land because of sin, the only way to be returned is to repent.

Please try to read what I am saying



Do you believe true repentance is possible without Christ?
Have no idea what this has to do with Gods promise to a nation


Particular group = Israel
Part of them doing something = blindness

What does "blindness in part has happened to Israel" mean to you?
Isreal is a nation.
Part of them are blind (reject Christ
Part of them can see (they have come to christ)
that is what it means. Even in OT times, God has always promised there would be a remnant who are faithful. he will not completely wipe out the nation. Because he made a promise to them.

When I read this, it clearly means that part of Israel is blind. Which de facto means that another part of Israel is not blind.

Is Paul not part of Israel? Is Christ not part of Israel?
Are gentiles part of Isreal?

You tried to say gentiles who are saved were part of Israel. they are not.

Paul and Christ were not gentiles


An empire that rises to power is not evidence of its righteousness or true claim to anything. We see in Rom 9:17 that even unrighteous people like the Pharaoh were raised to power solely for the purpose of being made an example of. The same is true for Babylon and its whore in Revelation. It rains and shines on the just and unjust alike.

Another question that comes to mind is what do you consider to count as possession? Merely living in the land? Autonomous governance in the land? A voice at the table? Is co-possession still counted as possession?

Dispensationalists must either openly reject the Bible or accept that Christians are coheirs to the promise made to Abraham.
1. God promised abraham, In you shall all the nations of the world be blessed.. All nations are the gentiles plus the jews. This is the promise who through the seed (CHrist) salvation is offered to all nations.. Gentiles share in this part of the promise

2. God made another promise. To abraham, through ONE seed (Isaac) and he remade the covenant with both Isaac and Jacaab and all Israel

To You I gave this land,

Gentiles have NO PART of this part of the abrahamic covenant, It was not given to them,

God gave them the land, It is theirs.. Right now gentiles possess it. because God said in lev 26 if you doso\bay me I wil destroy your high places and remove you from the land, and gentiles will enjoy it. UNTIL you repent.

Not sure why your trying to make it so difficult..

Abrahamic covenant has a salvation aspect given to all nations. and a land aspect given to one nation.
 
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You replaced the word seed with Christ.

Thats changing the word..

Seed in the context of this land is descendants. Not Christ.
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Gal 3:16 KJV

What does Gal 3:16 mean to you?

Gentiles have NO PART of this part of the abrahamic covenant, It was not given to them,
"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Gal 3:29 KJV

What does Gal 3:29 mean to you?
 

Everlasting-Grace

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"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Gal 3:16 KJV

What does Gal 3:16 mean to you?
That salvation is not through birth, But through Christ.

That has no bearing on the land promise Once again, You need to seperate the two.


"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Gal 3:29 KJV

What does Gal 3:29 mean to you?
same as my first answer....
 

Everlasting-Grace

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12 Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you

And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;

And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”


People need to realise

the parts in blue have nothing to do with Salvation

The part in red have EVERYTHING to do with salvation.

When you try to make the red and blue meet and all equal salvation, you distort the covenant of God.
 
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That salvation is not through birth, But through Christ.

That has no bearing on the land promise Once again, You need to seperate the two.




same as my first answer....
Why are you talking about salvation when those passages are about promise?
 
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Jocund Please make known the post or persons you are addressing :)
Recent comments were to Everlasting-Grace.

If you're hinting at what I think you're hinting at, I think you're the wiser of the two of us!