Doctrine of Immutability (Eternal Security)

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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#41
It isn't God that I am against. I am against Man claiming that God has spoken to them and that some human beings are deemed more worthy than others because of a decree instituted by this "God" of theirs, on the sole basis of tradition and "faith".
Well that's nice. You suppose to judge God based on your intellectual superiority. Perhaps you can answer the simple question that God asked Job?

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#42
Well, as I mentioned before, I did not fill my head with only secular literature. It was a big struggle for me to realize that if I was being honest, I needed to look into all of this from a disinterested approach. I am an engineer by trade, and I've learned that you don't get anywhere by just hoping you are right. You must first understand how something works in order to actually know what you are talking about.

I probably read more Christian books than secular books. The funny thing about the Christian authors is that they assume a lot of things, and they definitely are not disinterested when it comes to finding objectivity within what we have come to know as Christianity.

You are right, No one but myself can know whether I "truly" knew God. The irony is that I am only claiming to not know God now based on what I've unlearned. You are the ones that claim to know with objectivity who God is, while many of you at the same time admit that God is far beyond our understanding.

I don't think your attitude stinks, I don't blame you for getting frustrated with me. All I ask is to have an intelligent conversation with someone that has looked into these "secular" views, acknowledges them, and still remains a christian. That's what I am hoping for.

well we have had this 'little chat' before so I took some liberty

but I am not frustrated...I am slightly angry...but prob more at those who love to write books that deny the God who created them

the onus is never on God. those who come to Him must believe He exists...something else would do good for you to remember?

I'll just mention again that it is better not to speculate on what someone has read or thinks or just how far in the wrong direction they may possibly have gone.

I can say sure, I know who God is objectively. but my real belief is centered in subjective experience with the God I know objectively

and I would never expect anyone to believe on my testimony

I suppose though, that the same can be said for the Bible?

so then I conclude that both are most likely necessary; however, God knows that what best touches my heart is understanding and not some 'nebulous' and unprovable occurence that even leaves me wondering
 
S

Seedz

Guest
#43
You do not study well, koine greek was a common language all in the roman empire would speek, the rich spoke classical greek, and he religious elite jews spoke hebrew.

God wrote the NT in a common language,

Try studying some before you make blanket statements which turn out to be untrue.
Rural people from ancient Judea spoke Greek?

Are you telling me Jesus spoke Greek too?
 
S

Seedz

Guest
#45
Well that's nice. You suppose to judge God based on your intellectual superiority. Perhaps you can answer the simple question that God asked Job?

Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
If you are going to quote from Job, you should also mention that there was no reason for job to suffer other than for God to prove a point at his great expense.

Also, how convenient is it that when we are faced with logical immoralities, we are always told that we don't know crap, and that only God knows. Plus I don't remember Job being written by God... So again, just man penning things to add to the literary game.
 
S

Seedz

Guest
#46
Greek was the common langage, so yes, do you knew w anything about the roman empire?
Do you really want to go there?

I don't think you know what you are saying honestly. Don't embarrass yourself.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#47
I am not saying that. I am just saying that it seems rather impossible that God is talking to all these people and they are saying different things. This is apparent today, and also in the bible we have. The synoptic Gospels each have different theological agendas and it is evident in the presentation. There is much to unravel and look at and I doubt these posts are going to make any progress as far as communicating my views.

Maybe you are right, I should just get off this site.

now I never said get off this site. and you know that.

look...I do most of my posting in the BDF getting back to people who posit the most ridiculous things that are not in scripture

I have a regard for the truth as simply written and a deep need for things to make sense

you see one thing but I see quite another.

as far as apparent contradictions go, the very boiled down and simple question a person has to ask of themself, is 'do I believe in God or do I believe what others say about Him and where do I go to find these things out?' we can't make excuses for not believing because of other people. I tried that once or twice. it's just silly

people sit around and wonder about aliens when they look at the stars

the Psalms say that the stars speak of God

do you choose which one or does your own heart speak to you in regards to that?

choose and go from there. one or the other is true.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,526
113
#48
If you are going to quote from Job, you should also mention that there was no reason for job to suffer other than for God to prove a point at his great expense.

Also, how convenient is it that when we are faced with logical immoralities, we are always told that we don't know crap, and that only God knows. Plus I don't remember Job being written by God... So again, just man penning things to add to the literary game.
Well Job was written by God.

I see the real problem is you do not like being the creation you want to be equal with the creator. That is just what the highest of archangels desired. It is also why Eve took of the forbidden fruit so she could like God. Adam went along since he thought it was a good plan as well.

Your sense of morality is above that of God.

When you as an engineer design something do you not have the ability to design it as you see fit? Or does the thing you are designing object and direct you to make it opposite to the specs you have established?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#49
Rural people from ancient Judea spoke Greek?

Are you telling me Jesus spoke Greek too?

I tried to tell you in the the thread that Greek was a common language of communication back then much like English is in the world today

it seems to me, that if a person wants to argue something they will look for the smallest things over which to stumble

anyway, this is really a case of you deciding

in the end, we all do and yes...it is as serious as death or life
 
S

Seedz

Guest
#50
well we have had this 'little chat' before so I took some liberty

but I am not frustrated...I am slightly angry...but prob more at those who love to write books that deny the God who created them

the onus is never on God. those who come to Him must believe He exists...something else would do good for you to remember?

I'll just mention again that it is better not to speculate on what someone has read or thinks or just how far in the wrong direction they may possibly have gone.

I can say sure, I know who God is objectively. but my real belief is centered in subjective experience with the God I know objectively

and I would never expect anyone to believe on my testimony

I suppose though, that the same can be said for the Bible?

so then I conclude that both are most likely necessary; however, God knows that what best touches my heart is understanding and not some 'nebulous' and unprovable occurence that even leaves me wondering
What you have described is far different from the "popular take" on these subjects.

You are actually one of the few that "sort of" go against the grain, without actually admitting to it fully.

I by no means claim that there is not God, neither do I claim atheism as my philosophical explanation for this subject.

I KNOW there is something, but I also know that we don't know.

Question: Would you be willing to read one of these "heathen" books?
 
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Seedz

Guest
#51
I tried to tell you in the the thread that Greek was a common language of communication back then much like English is in the world today

it seems to me, that if a person wants to argue something they will look for the smallest things over which to stumble

anyway, this is really a case of you deciding

in the end, we all do and yes...it is as serious as death or life

Yes, I understand that Greek then was the English of today, but you also need to understand that the poorest peasants (apostles and disciples, including Jesus) likely did not speak it, and much less were literate enough to write what they allegedly wrote.

Just like today, most higher income classes overseas speak English, and the poorer classes don't. Although this is a generalization, it is not blatantly inaccurate.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#52
Do you really want to go there?

I don't think you know what you are saying honestly. Don't embarrass yourself.
I am not worried about anything, but you on the otherhand, need to study more, seems like you want to make excuses to disbelief instead of seeng hope story as it was
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#53
Yes, I understand that Greek then was the English of today, but you also need to understand that the poorest peasants (apostles and disciples, including Jesus) likely did not speak it, and much less were literate enough to write what they allegedly wrote.

Just like today, most higher income classes overseas speak English, and the poorer classes don't. Although this is a generalization, it is not blatantly inaccurate.
Everyhing you just said is just conjcture nothing based on fact.
 
S

Seedz

Guest
#54
as far as apparent contradictions go, the very boiled down and simple question a person has to ask of themself, is 'do I believe in God or do I believe what others say about Him and where do I go to find these things out?' we can't make excuses for not believing because of other people. I tried that once or twice. it's just silly
This right here, ^ this is my point.

You do realize that the only reason that you know of GOD is because of the bible and what you have heard others say about "him"?

The bible did not come from God's pen.
The sermons you heard on Sunday morning did not come from God's mouth.

I hate to say it, but all that you know of God, is all shaped through presuppositions instilled in you by your culture and surroundings.

I have no idea who you are or where you are from, but correct me if I am wrong by saying that you are from some western society?

If you had been born in the middle east, or in Asia, it is far less likely that you'd be holding onto these beliefs.

My point is that you wouldn't know about the Christian God if it wasn't for someone else, another human being writing or saying something.

Same goes for me, as far as the "secular" views, but they do not condemn people based on how they live their lives as long as it is all within the realm of common sense. i.e. I cannot expect to not go to jail I am responsible for a crime. Christianity automatically condemns everyone.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,526
113
#56
This right here, ^ this is my point.

You do realize that the only reason that you know of GOD is because of the bible and what you have heard others say about "him"?

The bible did not come from God's pen.
The sermons you heard on Sunday morning did not come from God's mouth.

I hate to say it, but all that you know of God, is all shaped through presuppositions instilled in you by your culture and surroundings.

I have no idea who you are or where you are from, but correct me if I am wrong by saying that you are from some western society?

If you had been born in the middle east, or in Asia, it is far less likely that you'd be holding onto these beliefs.

My point is that you wouldn't know about the Christian God if it wasn't for someone else, another human being writing or saying something.

Same goes for me, as far as the "secular" views, but they do not condemn people based on how they live their lives as long as it is all within the realm of common sense. i.e. I cannot expect to not go to jail I am responsible for a crime. Christianity automatically condemns everyone.
And what would you know of engineering had no one taught you?

God most certainly pen the word of God. The prophecy contained in the bible could not have been written without Gods foreknowledge.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,526
113
#57
Tell that to the scholars that have spent their lives researching these topics.
Men who also consider their opinions above the reasoning of God. Why will you submit to men and reject God? How many time do the best works of men need to be rewritten and corrected for you to see that they are very fallible?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
S

Seedz

Guest
#58
And what would you know of engineering had no one taught you?

God most certainly pen the word of God. The prophecy contained in the bible could not have been written without Gods foreknowledge.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Engineering is something that can be seen and demonstrated. Not only is it repeatable, but the same equations used in the USA can be used in Russia, China, and under the sea.

Christianity is not constant.