Doctrine of Immutability (Eternal Security)

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OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
#81
"12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."- 1 John 5:12

24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming."-1 John 2:24-28
Taken out of context. Those scriptures still do not state what you claimed would be found in scripture here:
You are eternally secure as long as you stay in Christ.

Leave the 'house' and you're on your own.
If your version is true then Peter is destined for damnation? He denied Christ three times before the cock crowed.
 
S

Seedz

Guest
#82
Does that mean that your Christianity is Roman Catholic based?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
No, my dad became a born again christian in USA 97. Protestant from the core. His family was not religious. My moms side was roman catholic but from tradition only, they were not practicing nor did they really care for it. I myself made my own decisions and had my own experiences in the faith (protestant went through a few denominations and ended up non deno) throughout the years. At least 14-16 conscious years of following Christ. My mom, dad, grandma and other family are currently dedicated born again Christians. I am the black sheep, they do not know yet.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,368
6,727
113
#83
I want to make sure I leave no stone un-turned when it comes to rekindling my lost faith. I present what I do know, in order to find people that know these things also, but have remained faithful.
The Stone you haven't turned over is the Chief Cornerstone, Jesus Christ.
He ALONE is our Foundation.

You CANNOT understand with your human intellect the Word of God. We are conversing with a dead person. You don't think you are dead, but you are.
You MUST be born again.

Do you know THE GOSPEL UNTO SALVATION?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
#84
Taken out of context. Those scriptures still do not state what you claimed would be found in scripture here:
Then put them in context and prove that to me.


If your version is true then Peter is destined for damnation? He denied Christ three times before the cock crowed.
No, he would be destined for damnation if he had refused to come back and God had turned him over to his denial of Christ.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,527
113
#85
No, my dad became a born again christian in USA 97. Protestant from the core. His family was not religious. My moms side was roman catholic but from tradition only, they were not practicing nor did they really care for it. I myself made my own decisions and had my own experiences in the faith (protestant went through a few denominations and ended up non deno) throughout the years. At least 14-16 conscious years of following Christ. My mom, dad, grandma and other family are currently dedicated born again Christians. I am the black sheep, they do not know yet.
I'm certain when you reveal your true feeling they will pray for you.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
10,368
6,727
113
#86
No, my dad became a born again christian in USA 97. Protestant from the core. His family was not religious. My moms side was roman catholic but from tradition only, they were not practicing nor did they really care for it. I myself made my own decisions and had my own experiences in the faith (protestant went through a few denominations and ended up non deno) throughout the years. At least 14-16 conscious years of following Christ. My mom, dad, grandma and other family are currently dedicated born again Christians. I am the black sheep, they do not know yet.
See, this is the great problem with so many "Christians", or those like this man who think, or THOUGHT they were Christian. FOLLOWING Christ does NOT make us Christian!

You are a Christian IF you have been born again. That's it!

Those that have been made a NEW creation are His. They may stray, they may stumble, but NOTHING can make them change their mind that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, who was crucified, died to pay the sin debt of the world, and rose to life on the 3rd day.

So I would implore you to accept Jesus Christ, be made NEW, filled and sealed with the Holy Spirit, THEN you are ready to FOLLOW Christ with love for Him and others.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,490
596
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#91
Question: How do we know that the spirit in fact is resident in ourselves? Is there a way to know?

Don't tell me that "by their fruits" they shall be known because we all know that most people will waver at one point or another in their walk. I don't find this to be a satisfactory explanation for evidence, if that were so then most people that claim to be Christians are liars.
It's true. Most people who claim to be Christian ARE in fact liars.

Christ said his words are (his) Spirit and are life. His words are also called his seed for the same reasons, Seedz.

Seeds get planted, must be watered, and then grow into crop in time. Seeds can also be choked and starved until they die. And many seeds look very similar to others when first planted but grow to become very different crops in the end.

Those who have Christ's words/teachings in them - his pure words, all of his words, and not just for memorization sake but for application; to live by - have his Spirit.

Now this isn't something magical I'm referring to but actually a real phenomenon that can be confirmed in every single educational institution around the world.

If spirit means "character; nature; unique thought pattern" then every teacher shares their spirit (character; nature; unique thought pattern) with their students through the spoken word (i.e. the student starts thinking like the teacher)...hence the reason why education is "institutionalized" into a general prevailing school of thought...for control of the masses...and today that thought is primarily Greco-Roman and not Hebraic (which is the thought Christ taught in, by the way).

This is also why Christ warned his followers to beware of the doctrines/teachings of the religious who would twist the pure words of Yah into their own traditions and then teach their traditions to the masses.

So for each religious teacher who puts their own twist on the original words, you'll eventually have a new school of thought emerge touting their "truth", hence the thousands of Christian denominations.

Every word out of a person's mouth is that person's spirit...even words posted on this forum are a manifestation of each member's spirit.

So the way you know if the Spirit (of Yah) resides in a person is if the words they speak naturally align with ALL of the words that proceeded out of Yah's mouth, from the beginning of scripture to the end. Not aligning with words you heard sitting in a pew. Not with just NT letters lacking foundational context. But with the ENTIRE body of scripture (from genesis to revelation) in the Hebraic context they were spoken/written.

"You don't know what you worship for Salvation is of the Jews", Christ said to the gentile woman who was taught a gentile version of the truth.

Zechariah 8:23
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."

Jeremiah 16:19
"O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit."

It requires dedication to a lot of study & research of scripture to make sure you first have Yah's uncorrupted words, but it's still measurable to know...and you have to be willing to start over, uprooting what you've already been taught.

You do this and you will begin to discern true Christians with Yah's spirit from liars.

Now to the question as to whether the scriptures are the truth of The Eternal One versus another faith; I encourage you to study the unadulterated version of the scriptures from Hebraic thought and see where it leads you. Suspend any conclusions while you're giving it a college try.

If you're led to the same doubts afterwards then you'll know it's not the truth and you'll be wiser for it.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#92
As I see it:
Rom 8:1 NASB "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."
But we see in Gal 2:11 NASB "But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned."

So here we see Peter stood condemned, and yet in Rom 8:1 NASB, we're told that, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Which is a clear contradiction between the two verses.
I see it as those who have been justified, having passed from death to eternal life will not come into judgment. While those who already stand condemed having not believed (exercised faith) have come into judgement already

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.John 3:18

But that does not mean if we violate the law of God he will not deny us and discipline those he loves, condemning the things we do but not us (impossible

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 2Timothy 2:12-13
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,527
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#93
Grace enables people to follow Christ, but it doesn't make anyone do that.
So grace is insufficient? What can you possibly add to the finished work of Christ?

We are created by Christ to do good works but our works do not make or keep us Christians.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,876
1,172
113
#94
Incorrect. We are looking at facts, scripture that is plainly stated. Things that if we interpret scripture in any other way would lead to contradictions. We are not interpreting scripture from these "overarching truths" but God's word reveals such overarching truths. The presupposition, if you will, is established upon scripture. Having established these facts, we must then look at other scriptures that seem to suggest something otherwise from these... irrevocable, immutable, and binding truths.
Nevertheless you are still arguing the same line and have not shown how "God's word reveals such overarching truths".
 
Oct 31, 2015
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#96
Doctrine of Immutability​

I so call this doctrine a "doctrine of immutability" because it is our state that is unchanging. Our state being our status before God, on the basis of His Son. It is a present being, as to what the Lord calls us. These shall be facts immutable, irrevocable, and binding, as the self-evident truths of God's word. We will not be shaken because our foundation is sure and what winds, of doctrine, that fly by shall simply brush off us and not remain. As God's word says, what fellowship does darkness have with light? So let us illuminate the truth as darkness retreats and deception crumbles.

Often a case is made, to the detriment of our peace, using multiple verses that presumably reveal the possibility of our salvation being lost. This they do in contrast to what might be called "over arching truths." Comprehensive truths, that once seen cannot be unseen. This is not a verse or two, or even multiple verses to formulate a doctrine (with the bias of presupposition). This is going to be a stating of facts, clearly revealed in God's word. Not a list of verses confirming a position (as both sides are well equipped). No, we shall set the stage, see the intended consequences of Christ's actions and roles, and then see the big picture. The will of the Father.

Mankind Rebels
Where better to start, than the beginning? We can only speculate in our perceptions of God revealed in His word as to the thoughts that went through His mind before speaking the world into existence. His foreknowledge and sovereignty permitting the existence of all that the universe encompasses, yet out of His good pleasure He endures it as Christ bore the cross with the joy set before Him. Merciful, indeed. Patient, of course. His long-suffering being the backbone to our repentance, as His desire is that none perish. That all would come to repentance.

What circumstance has man placed himself in that a holy and righteous God would call him to repentance? Condemnation, the path of the unrighteous for those outside of Christ. Adam and Eve being the catalyst of humanity's alienation from God through disobedience, and sin not being allowed in the presence of God, Almighty. A barrier between God and man. Sin's penalty is death, and God's judgement is righteous. What shall God do with a people incapable of redemption, in and through themselves? Will He let them suffer the consequence of their actions? He could have, but instead He chose mercy out of His abundant love for His creation. He sent His Son, and this is where we begin to see our status before God unfolding.

Reconciliation
God so formulated a plan of reconciliation that would tear down the barrier between man and God that nothing could separate us from His love. Jesus went to the cross, died our death (atonement), and resurrected unto our justification before God. This was through His bloodshed, as it says in His word that "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission." Yet even greater and followed it is stated, "...where remission of these (sin) is, there is no more offering for sin." Our sins have been remitted, canceled a debt or punishment, because of the Lamb of God.

Through this act the barrier between the Lord and His creation was torn (symbolized in the veil being split in two). Sin, all sin, being remitted through the blood of Christ. Total forgiveness, redemption ours. Sin can no more alienate a believer from God than Jesus will go to the cross again. It is impossible, because He did one sacrifice for all time, for all sin. Not being like the priests of old having to do daily and yearly sacrifices, He being eternal and risen, was made an eternally sufficient sacrifice for all sin. His act then still applies today, how else would the lost be saved? Jesus' blood has granted the remission of sin (in its entirety).

Justification​

We, at this point, now see one aspect of our status before God that is unchanging. Whilst this is no license to sin, sin no longer condemns. We stand justified before God on the basis of His Son. Sin as destructive as it is, and replete with natural consequences, does not lead to eternal condemnation as a believer because Jesus, through His bloodshed, has granted us the remission of sin. We are justified before God, fact. This is one truth that is self-evident, irrevocable, immutable, and binding. Is there yet more?

High Priest
I ought to further elaborate on Jesus' role here, as our High Priest. This too shall be an overarching truth that maintains our status before the Lord. Yet another truth that cannot be unseen, erupting praise. What role and function does the high priest serve? A mediator before God and man, Jesus interceding on our behalf. Our High Priest after the order of Melchizedek, with a priesthood that is eternal. Where as the priests of old died and therefore so did their service, Jesus lives on (resurrected) able to intercede on our behalf forever. For this reason He is able to save us completely or to the uttermost.

There is no condemnation upon us, for we are in Christ and the Lord as our faithful High Priest makes intercession for us. This priest, our Lord, doesn't make continual sacrifices as others did. For He is the very sacrifice, and this being so, if His blood didn't remit all sin He would've had to suffer since the foundation of the world (since He is the sacrifice for sin). Yet, His blood is sufficient, eternal, and His sacrifice the propitiation for the sins of the world. Since the role of the high priest is, essentially, to make peace with God, appeasing His justice we have this in Jesus always (as He lives on forever, as does His priesthood; including His sacrifice and bloodshed).

Here we yet find another aspect of immutability. Our place of justification before God based upon the blood of Christ, unchanging, as the Lord our High Priest intercedes forever upon our behalf. Our Mediator, our Advocate with the Father. Our position and status secure, found in Christ. This is too self-evident as we comprehend the role of the high priest and Jesus' advocacy on our behalf.


Some scripture would be nice to validate your claim.




JPT
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,527
113
#97
Obedience to the words of Christ.
LOL denying the sufficiency of the grace of God is not obedience.

If I am to be obedient it is by the grace of God and not my strength. My Christ knows my infirmities and has compassion on my weaknesses. His grace is sufficient for me because it has pleased my Father in heaven.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Oct 31, 2015
2,024
519
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#98
I have not changed anything. You are now bouncing all over the place. It is are real challenge to argue against God. LOL

Of course God exists. He has revealed Himself in His word and in His creation. God created you in His image and likeness.

We know the Holy Spirit exists because Jesus Christ said the Holy Spirit would come in His place on this earth. He also said that the Holy Spirit would dwell in the hearts of those who love God and do His will.

What are you trusting in?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

We are trusting in the Spirit of Christ within us, to lead and guide us in the way of truth; in the way of righteousness.


We trust and rely upon His grace; the power by which we live in dominion over the sin that dwells in our flesh, that we may walk according to the Spirit, rather than walking according to the flesh and practicing the works of the flesh.


12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. Romans 8:12-14


  • if you live according to the flesh you will die;
  • but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


JPT