Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?

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Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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The unborn can react to the presence of the Holy Spirit ON them just like anybody else. MANY folks in the
OLD Testament experienced the Holy Spirit ON themselves, but until John 20:22, The Spirit was IN nobody.
How could Elizabeth be filled with the Holy Spirit if it was not in her? :unsure:
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
Hi Kaylagrl
Following the statement that we must "hate our father and mother, Jesus relates a metaphor about a man who builds a house without first counting the cost (Luke 14: 28-30). The man finds that he cannot follow through with what he set out to do. He leaves the house unfinished because he cannot pay what is required. Jesus' illustration helps explain His difficult statement about hating our mother and father--namely we must count the cost of being a disciple. There is a cost, and that is the point of the passage.
In order to be a disciple, we must be willing to give up everything for Jesus. Following Jesus requires commitment and faithfulness, even if our parents choose not to follow the Lord. If and when we are faced with the painful choice of loyalty to family versus loyalty to Jesus, we must choose Jesus. Even if our family members disown us - or worse- for being Christians, we must follow Christ. It is in this sense that we are "hating" our family. Jesus command to " hate father and mother" requires us to prioritize our relationship with Jesus over our relationship with parents, siblings, and other family members.
Of course, it is right to love our family members, and want them to love and follow God. Elsewhere, Jesus confirmed the 5th commandment that we honor our fathers and mothers (Mark 9: 7-13). And Paul sternly warned that " anyone who does not provide for their relatives, and especially for their own household, has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever" ( 1 Tim 5:8). Jesus' statementthat we "hate" father and mother must be seen in relation to the whole of Scripture. His point is not that we are to be heartless toward our families, only that we must love Him more.
In otherwards, if you want to be Jesus' disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison.

Ok I wasn't looking for a copy paste answer. The word hate used here doesn't mean hate in the way we use the word. Of course we don't have to literally hate our family. Same as when the term is used between Jacob and Esau.
 
Dec 30, 2020
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Ok I wasn't looking for a copy paste answer. The word hate used here doesn't mean hate in the way we use the word. Of course we don't have to literally hate our family. Same as when the term is used between Jacob and Esau.
Why did you even ask the question when you already knew the answer?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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The unborn can react to the presence of the Holy Spirit ON them just like anybody else. MANY folks in the OLD Testament experienced the Holy Spirit ON themselves, but until John 20:22, The Spirit was IN nobody.
I see the Bible as a snapshot of something that happened, but it doesn’t include every bit of information. The Bible can almost put us in a box, and maybe that’s partially the point, but God isn’t in a box, so there’s that too.

There’s the matter of John the Baptist who, before he was born, was filled with the Holy Spirit and this was obviously pre-crucifixion. If John had it then it’s possible others had it before him, if God so desired it.

Luke 1
13But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
 
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I made my point in post #783 which proves God wants to save everyone but not all will be saved. The exchanges that have taken place thereafter have been me trying to get you to actually accept what it says. You’re not doing that and it isn’t a problem for me.

Since then, you’ve resorted to not accepting universally agreed about definitions of words. You’re splitting hairs to avoid the undeniable reality that God doesn’t force people to be saved because He requires their choice to have faith.

There is not escape route being used. I’m not trapped nor do I need to prove anything else since you clearly reject what I showed you as ample proof. I’m not one to beat the dead horse so to speak. You clearly have a different perspective that you have yet to prove using scripture. I’m willing to leave it at that.
Ok. Whilst I completely disagree with you and that you have failed to see the highly significant difference between "God WILLS all to be saved" and your personal interpretation that WILLS means the same thing as wishes, hopes and desires - which it most emphatically does not - we'll leave it a that.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Ok. Whilst I completely disagree with you and that you have failed to see the highly significant difference between "God WILLS all to be saved" and your personal interpretation that WILLS means the same thing as wishes, hopes and desires - which it most emphatically does not - we'll leave it a that.
I'm not using a personal interpretation. I'm using the Bible and a word definition from a well-known dictionary. I haven't been debating this entire time. I'm teaching.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
I'm not using a personal interpretation. I'm using the Bible and a word definition from a well-known dictionary. I haven't been debating this entire time. I'm teaching.

I do not see where the Bible teaches total depravity. That is the issue under all of this.
 
Dec 30, 2020
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My point is that Christ is God because He sits at the Father's right hand and is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit. The Father communicates His will and empowers Christ through His Holy Spirit. Christ existed before He became Jesus and is the creator of all things made because of the Father's Glory (Holy Spirit). Christ has His own mind and will but is obedient to the Father's will in heaven and on earth. Christ ( as the Father's right hand ) is the God who is active in the Old Testament. Both Christ and the Father are Spirits and have their own wills. Through them other spirits are created in the kingdom of heaven ( some with their own free will and some without). Sin is going against the Father's will and has consequences ( God's justice ). All humans have their own spirit and because all sin (except for Jesus), the consequence is death. The Father's justice demands that all humans be condemned but because of His mercy, He sends Christ (who is perfect) to become a man and die. Being perfect He was not supposed to die, but when He did, life is owed Him by the Father. Christ died for all mankind and wishes that all be saved, but the Father has to show His wrath for disobedience. If He saves all, there would not be justice in heaven and sin would run rampant. To demonstrate His mercy, He saves a few. Those that He saves are written in the book of life before the world began. Those chosen are those that put their trust in Christ's death for the remission of sins and are changed (born again) by the Holy Spirit (perfected) so that the motivation from love of self changes to love for God first and everyone else second. It is through the Holy Spirit of the Father and Son that directs the path of all believers. Salvation is a state of being, not just a mental acceptance of Christ.
Because of Christ's obedience to the point of death, the Father rewards Christ with His own kingdom in heaven with a scepter of righteousness and composed of those who are saved and make up Christ's spiritual body.
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
My point is that Christ is God because He sits at the Father's right hand and is filled with the Father's Holy Spirit. The Father communicates His will and empowers Christ through His Holy Spirit. Christ existed before He became Jesus and is the creator of all things made because of the Father's Glory (Holy Spirit). Christ has His own mind and will but is obedient to the Father's will in heaven and on earth.
Agreed


Christ ( as the Father's right hand ) is the God who is active in the Old Testament. Both Christ and the Father are Spirits and have their own wills. Through them other spirits are created in the kingdom of heaven ( some with their own free will and some without).
Snag... Can I have verses for that plz. And a small question here, did satan have his own free will in heaven? Or did God create him to sin and fall.


Sin is going against the Father's will and has consequences ( God's justice ).
Agreed again.


All humans have their own spirit and because all sin (except for Jesus), the consequence is death.
Another small question, was Jesus side fully human?



The Father's justice demands that all humans be condemned but because of His mercy, He sends Christ (who is perfect) to become a man and die.
And we agree again.


Christ died for all mankind and wishes that all be saved,
There we go, we agree on several points when we break it all down.




but the Father has to show His wrath for disobedience. If He saves all, there would not be justice in heaven and sin would run rampant.
If everyone is saved how would sin run rampant?



To demonstrate His mercy, He saves a few. Those that He saves are written in the book of life before the world began.
Actually the Jews are the chosen people. We were just grafted in. So I guess the Jews would be the ones He would save first and maybe fit in a gentile or two?



Those chosen are those that put their trust in Christ's death for the remission of sins and are changed (born again) by the Holy Spirit (perfected) so that the motivation from love of self changes to love for God first and everyone else second.
So how does God choose who He will save and who He will execute?



It is through the Holy Spirit of the Father and Son that directs the path of all believers. Salvation is a state of being, not just a mental acceptance of Christ.
Because of Christ's obedience to the point of death, the Father rewards Christ with His own kingdom in heaven with a scepter of righteousness and composed of those who are saved and
make up Christ's spiritual body.

Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit leads sinners to Christ, I think that is what we are both saying here.
 

Bob-Carabbio

Well-known member
Jun 24, 2020
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How could Elizabeth be filled with the Holy Spirit if it was not in her? :unsure:
Depends on how you interpret the word "Filled". Jesus said that they KNEW Holy Spirit, since He'd always been "WITH" them, but in the future, The Holy Spirit would be IN them (which happened at John 20:22, with the effect recorded at Luke 24:45).
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Depends on how you interpret the word "Filled". Jesus said that they KNEW Holy Spirit, since He'd always been "WITH" them, but in the future, The Holy Spirit would be IN them (which happened at John 20:22, with the effect recorded at Luke 24:45).
This seems to hearken back to the word "endue" which you gave earlier...

It is certainly not a word you come across often, is it?

And it is an interesting conundrum, too, as to how the Holy Spirit comes upon someone
to inspire them, without being in them, or even in convicting the world of its sins...


endue definition: to invest or endow with some gift, quality, or faculty.
- to put on; assume: Hamlet endued the character of a madman.
- to clothe.
 

Bob-Carabbio

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Jun 24, 2020
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I see the Bible as a snapshot of something that happened, but it doesn’t include every bit of information. The Bible can almost put us in a box, and maybe that’s partially the point, but God isn’t in a box, so there’s that too.

There’s the matter of John the Baptist who, before he was born, was filled with the Holy Spirit and this was obviously pre-crucifixion. If John had it then it’s possible others had it before him, if God so desired it.

Luke 1
13But the angel said to him: “Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to call him John. 14He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
Same with Samson - who was a "Nazarite from birth".

"Filled with" apparently "Fully motivated by". but it was Jesus who referred to a FUTURE INFILLING. Acts 2:4 is an EXTERNAL CLOTHING with the Holy Spirit ("endued with power").

NOBODY was "Indwelled" until John 20:22.
 

Bob-Carabbio

Well-known member
Jun 24, 2020
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This seems to hearken back to the word "endue" which you gave earlier...

It is certainly not a word you come across often, is it?

And it is an interesting conundrum, too, as to how the Holy Spirit comes upon someone
to inspire them, without being in them, or even in convicting the world of its sins...
No "conundrum" at all (unless you want to hang on to the Calvinist interpretation of "Total Depravity". They had to create their "Regeneration" fantasy as a "work around").

God HAS ALWAYS communicated with, motivated, and given power to people who, up to John 20:22 were only unregnerates.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Depends on how you interpret the word "Filled". Jesus said that they KNEW Holy Spirit, since He'd always been "WITH" them, but in the future, The Holy Spirit would be IN them (which happened at John 20:22, with the effect recorded at Luke 24:45).
Just a thought...in Job 42:5 Job relates that he had previously heard of God, but now he has seen Him. As I'm not inclined to believe he actually saw God, it might be that the expression is not used literally, but used as a means to express the immense difference in how he once experienced God and now does so in a significantly greater degree. It might be in like manner Jesus is speaking of the experience of the Holy Spirit. On the day of Pentecost the experience of the pouring out of the Spirit represented a new and greater experience.
Another question that might be considered is whether someone in OT times needed to be born again and whether His indwelling is necessary for salvation?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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No "conundrum" at all (unless you want to hang on to the Calvinist interpretation of "Total Depravity". They had to create their "Regeneration" fantasy as a "work around").

God HAS ALWAYS communicated with, motivated, and given power to people who, up to John 20:22 were only unregnerates.
Since none are righteous and man is a slave to sin until such time as he is born again, or given a new heart as promised, that allows him/her to love God, I don't really understand all the hostility toward total depravity. Total depravity was affirmed by the Five articles of Remonstrance (Article 3 – Total depravity. This article affirms the total depravity of man, that man is unable to do the will of God, and cannot save himself, apart from the grace of God) by Jacobus Arminius himself, and by John Wesley, who strongly identified with Arminius through publication of his periodical The Arminian, and also advocated a strong doctrine of inability. Theologians have never considered humans to be totally unable to do good outwardly as a result of the fall. Still, there are none good but God. Jesus said so :)

The conundrum mentioned has to do with the Holy Spirit working upon a person without being in the person. That is all I meant by that.
 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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I don't really understand all the hostility toward total depravity.
The Calvinist idea of total depravity is that an individual cannot even respond to the Gospel. Therefore according to their bizarre theology, God chooses some (the so-called elect) for salvation, then gives them the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they repent and are converted, and then as a result they believe and are saved. Here is how it is expressed in the Westminster Confession of Faith: "...man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it." Actually repentance is not even mentioned here which in itself makes this idea suspect. Thus total depravity totally contradicts Gospel truth and puts the cart before the horse. Also, Total Depravity totally ignores the existence of the human conscience, and that in fact the unsaved can do many good works.
 

Bob-Carabbio

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Jun 24, 2020
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The conundrum mentioned has to do with the Holy Spirit working upon a person without being in the person. That is all I meant by that.
No "Conundrum" at all except the one created by "Man's Theology". God CAN, and DOES speak to, and motivate anybody He wants, any time he wants, in whatever WAY he wants. Whether His Holy Spirit in IN the person or not isn't important. The function of the Holy Spirit IN a person is given in Romans 8:28,29 - i.e. to CHANGE THE PERSON and bring them into the IMAGE OF JESUS.

The Disciples didn't have the Holy Spirit IN them (yet), but were out doing miracles in God's power as Jesus commissioned them.